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Hello All,
Trying to understand how your beliefs make sense.
The WORD, meaning the pre-existing only begotten Son, was made flesh. So he became in the likeness of man because he was made flesh, and he looked like a man, but he was not a man?
If the only begotten Son left his glory behind, we see Jesus on earth as the glorious begotten Son because he left his glory behind??
The Word, the pre-existing only begotten Son, dwelt among the people, but he as the Word now made flesh, needed God’s Spirit to speak God’s word?
What would be the point of sending The Word if the Word can’t even speak of his own?
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
How can they behold the glory of the only begotten of the Father, if you say that he LEFT HIS GLORY BEHIND?
That which they beheld was full of grace and truth, where did that grace and truth come from and when did the fulfilling take place?
Hi All,
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2 And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;
Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; 2 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;
How is this NOT God’s WORD made true in the flesh, where the people beheld the glory of the son of Jesse who received God’s Spirit, an anointing, and was sent having wisdom and understanding, council and might, where people watched him heal and even raise the dead?
John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
I just can’t understand how people deny the MOST OBVIOUS.
Jesus was filled with grace and truth upon God anointing him, and the people beheld his glory because of the Spirit and the powers thereof that were upon him. That Spirit was even said to have been given without measure. Such was Jesus being made into our Father’s only begotten Son and into our Christ.
This is when we see Jesus being sent, when the Son is sent out into the world, and when the Anointed is sent out into the world.
WHEN we are told by Jesus that he could do NOTHING OF HIMSELF
AND
That the Spirit was upon him, AN ANOINTING, in order for him to BE SENT TO SET US AT LIBERTY
There is then NO pre-existing only begotten Son sent down to earth to be your savior.
Our heavenly Father YHWH, who anointed Jesus, is our savior through resting His Spirit in fullness upon Jesus, where he received the Spirit of Wisdom and Understanding, Knowledge and Fear of the LORD, Council and Might, whereby having the fullness he was able to go to the cross with faith and strength.
A pre-existing only begotten son being sent is TOTAL VANITY, USELESSNESS.
THE WORD IS that FROM THE BEGINNING a MAN would COME and execute YHWH’s purpose. Not just any purpose, the very purpose that YHWH created all things for, LIFE. We see the END which involves a man sitting on a throne according to the flesh who is a first begotten from the dead.
We have the WORD from the beginning and we have the WORD of the end which was declared from the beginning, and that WORD is repeated all through the bible, and that WORD speaks of a MAN all throughout.
Some say he was never an actual man, some say he for a little while was more than a man.
Scripture says he was going to be a man, that he was a man, and that he is still a man.
This man was the only begotten Son, now he is to be believed as the first begotten Son of the dead, said to be the root and offspring of David, where David died in hope that if his son was raised up, he would likewise be raised up.
The WORD, meaning the pre-existing only begotten Son, was made flesh. So he became in the likeness of man because he was made flesh, and he looked like a man, but he was not a man?
It’s pretty simple. He emptied himself and came in the flesh, thus he became a man. He was made a little lower than the angels. He was born into this world as a man (adam). But not of Adam, rather being the Second or Final Adam.
Jodi,
You have asked some very important questions. I can’t address them at this moment but hopefully soon.
Blessing, LU
Hi t8,
Thanks for engaging!
YOU:It’s pretty simple. He emptied himself and came in the flesh, thus he became a man. He was made a little lower than the angels. He was born into this world as a man (adam). But not of Adam, rather being the Second or Final Adam.
ME:
t8, the text of prophecy that I read below tells me that the “him” that was made a little lower than the angels is specifically the human referenced in the very prior verse. I see a sequence of events all in relation to the man. First there is a man and then God is mindful of him, and then so on and so forth.
4-6 What is man (enowsh -mortal man), that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man (Adam/human), that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
Additionally we read in 1 Corinthians 15 part of this same prophecy given again, where it is also in reference to a man who has been raised from the dead.
Hi Jodi,
We need to go back to the beginning of creation. God made man(kind – Adam & Eve) in his own image and likeness (Genesis 1:26) and gave him(them) dominion over all the earth and its creatures (Genesis 1:26,28) i.e. “made him a little lower than the angels; He crowned him with glory and honour, and set him over the works of thy hands” (Hebrews 2:7.
He gave man a commandment which if he disobeyed would mean he died (Genesis 2:16-17).
Man disobeyed. He lost communion/fellowship with God the source of LIFE, the likeness of i.e. the glory of God and eventually physically died. Man became the servant of SIN, under the headship of the Devil and began to live out a life like the devil i.e. lies, hatred, deceit, accusing etc.
Since that time all men everywhere have been sinners (coming from the line of Adam) see Romans 5:12-21; Romans 3:21.
Despite numerous restarts by God with mankind (e.g. Noah, Abraham & Israel) man always falls short of the glory of God.
In order to solve the problem and have a new man(kind) God sent His Word (who is God), his only begotten son to live as the right kind of man (Philippians 2:6-8). This is Jesus who took on flesh & blood i.e. became a human (Hebrews 2:14). He was tested by the devil like Adam & Eve but never became disobedient to God. He lived his life as a man speaking God’s words and doing God’s works as true man should. He testified of the world that it it’s works were evil (John 7:7).
He then died where he became sin (the last of the adamic mankind) and rose again to enable you and I to be born again and become a true son of God. When a person truly repents of the old sinful adamic life and believes in Jesus. Jesus send the Holy Spirit to them to begin a new life as a new creation (2 Corinthians 5:17-18).
The individual yields themselves and all their members (eyes, hands, feet, mind, heart etc) to Jesus to live out his new man life in them (in the same way Jesus yielded himself as a man to God the Father to live out his life in him). There are many passages of scripture teaching this but Romans 5 & 6 are central.
When we are born again, born from heaven by the spirit of God we are free from the dominion of sin (Roman 6), free from the headship of the devil in our lives (translated out of his kingdom – Colossians 1:13) and delivered from this present evil world (Galatians 1:4).
Jesus who was made a little lower than the angels is now crowned with glory and honour (Hebrews 2:9) and being captain of our great salvation is bringing many sons to glory (Hebrews 2:10).
Let Jesus live his life in you, and you will have this great treasure in your earthern vessel until he comes again and changes our vile bodies to be fashioned like unto his glorious body (Philippians 3:20-21). He is able to do it all now and in the future.
Blessings.
Hi Davo,
I like the way you write. Could you please respond in this thread as well:
Why is Jesus called the second Adam if you say he came from Adam???
____________
God bless
Ed JT8…..What exactly do you believe Jesus “emptied” himself of, before he was “morphed” into a human being, in the womb of Mary? How did that exactly happen?, what perposes would it serve if it were true?, what kind of true example would he be for us?, seening Jesus tells us to do “exactly” as he did?, So how do we overcome “exactly” as he did, seening he had such a great advantage of “preexisting” before us?. According to you view.
My view is Jesus came into his “only” existence as a human being, “exactly” as we did. He had no advantage over us in any way, except that he was fore ordained as the man that was to come from the loins of King David, a prophesied human being , who was given the Holy spirit when he was baptized by John at the Jordan river and from there was sent to be tested and out into the world to peach the good new about the Kingdom of God., with power given him by GOD THE FATHER.
JESUS plainly told us that the biggest deception would be about him, saying, “many” shall come in my name saying I am the christ , and decieve “many.” Right from the very start a false Jesus was preached by the GNOSTIC’S, which began to infect the true church, in the days of the apostles Paul and John, who John coined as antichrists, who taught that Jesus “preexisted” his berth and was a God before he came to this earth, therefore he did not need to be anointed, because he was already God, hence came the word “Antichrist “. Those who did not believe Jesus came into his only existence at his flesh berth on this earth, also they actually denied his flesh existence and also denied he needed to be Baptized. These false teachings “infected” the church early on, and grow and eventually take over nearly all Christanity as it is today.
Peace and love to you and yours. ……….gene
,
Hi t8,
Yes that was the question I had also.
What did he empty himself of, and what remained that was needed or necessary?
No human knows what the physical nature of God is.
Therefore, we do not know what the only begotten Son of God got rid of while keeping his divine identity as Son of God.
One thing is certain, that for God everything is POSSIBLE.T8…..What exactly do you believe Jesus “emptied” himself of, before he was “morphed” into a human being, in the womb of Mary?
No human knows what the physical nature of God is.
God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
His nature is divine and his essence is spirit.
And if we can share in God’s nature so all the more Jesus Christ who after all has a body now that we will have. We will be like him.
Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature, having escaped the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.
Connecting the dots, some think Jesus emptied himself of divine nature and this is confirmed in that he took on flesh or human nature and became a man. This is certainly worth considering because he is now at the righthand of God in the glory he had with him even before creation itself.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
T8 has quoted many wonderful scriptures.
Now we know that the “natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.“ and that “it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” And again “has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? “. (1 Corinthians chs 1&2)
Consequently we need the Spirit of God to reveal the things of God, for He is the only one who can and does lead us into all truth, that includes everything that Jesus is for Jesus is the truth.
“No man has seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.” (John 1:18; 1 John 4:12).
“He that has seen me has seen the Father” said Jesus to Phillip.
We are told that the Apostles saw, handled and touched the Word of Life, the Eternal Life in the person of Jesus (John 1 & 1 John 1). We are told he was both on earth and in heaven at the same time and came down from heaven (John 3:13), that God sent his son into the world (John 3:17 & many other scriptures). He is titled both the Son of God and the Son of Man.
If you come into a room you already exist outside the room. The one (the Eternal Life) who lived in Jesus the man pre-existed the world he created (Colossians 1:16-17).
Jesus was not born of Joseph’s seed (sperm) – (Matthew 1:20) – the Holy Spirit over shadowed Mary and the Holy thing conceived in her was the Son of God (Luke 1:35).
God gave him his divinity, The Virgin Mary gave him his humanity.
Being of Mary He came of the line of Israel, Son of David, Son of Abraham (Matthew 1) being of Mary He was Son of Adam/Man (Luke 3).
In this way God fulfilled his promises to man(kind) and Israel. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself. (2 Corinthians 5:19).
Jesus never inherited sinful adamic nature being begotten of the Holy Spirit. He only became the last Adam at Calvary when God “made sin Him to be sin who knew no sin that we might become the righteousness of God in Him” (2 Corinthians 5:21). In this way the Adamic (old) man was crucified with Christ and buried in death, and when anyone is born of God they are baptised into Christ’s death, so they can by that quickening spirit that is Christ, rise with Christ into newness of life and live how he did, be seated where is seated. (Romans 6:3-14). Christ is the New Man(kind).
Adam was the first man(earthy), Christ the second Man (heavenly). “As we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.”
At the judgement to come Mankind will be judged by their attitude to the Father’s Son, Christ. (Matthew 25:31-46; Romans 2:16; 1 John 5:12)
When one yields themselves to God, Christ inhabits the pardoned sinner, saved by Grace, to live out His life in them, sealed by the Holy Spirit for the redemption of the purchased possession, saved from the wrath to come, at which time they will have their vile bodies transformed into the likeness of his body and be made a partaker of the new earth and new heavens, former things having passed away.
God gets His inheritance in the saints and the saints get their inheritance in God.
Blessings all.
What did the only begotten Son og God empty himself of?
Perhaps he emptied himself of his memory, entrusting the Father to restore when and if he saw fit, and gave himself a self-inflicted case of amnesia. He came in flesh as a baby with no prior knowledge, no prior memory. The baby did have the pre-existent spirit of the only begotten son within him as his own spirit, imo.
Hopeful, LU
This is the best analogy that I have found to show how One goes through a begetting process to yield another just like Himself yet distinct as a son. The two together are the substance of the one. The One is the fullness of the two.
Hopeful, LU
T8
That’s not what i was talking about
Of course God is Spirit … etc
But I meant no one really knows what this is PHYSICALLY TALKING because the question is: what did the Son of God get emptied of ..Hi Jodi,
Jesus said “I am the root and the offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16) (Isaiah 11:1). How could the person who is Jesus the man, born in time be the <b><u>root</u></b> from which David sprang if he did not preexist.
Jesus said “before Abraham was I am” (John 8:58). How could the person who is Jesus the man born in time be <b><u>before</u></b> Abraham if who Jesus was did not preexist.
Jesus said “I and the Father are one” and had asked for “the glory which I had with thee before the world was”. How could this be if he <b><u>who</u></b> Jesus was be one with the Father
While all things Jesus did and said were by the indwelling presence of the Spirit we must remember Jesus was born by the overshadowing of the Spirit not as all other men and women are born.
He went on to grow in the Spirit, be anointed by the Spirit, minister in the Spirit and was raised from the dead by the Spirit, then receiving the Holy Spirit for mankind, poured out the Spirit on the day of Pentecost and following.
Just let it sink in what the Apostle John was saying when he said the Apostles touched and handled the Word of Life, the Eternal Life in the person who was Jesus the man.
Men and women in Jesus met and still meet today, God, who is Light, Love and Life, all of which preexist creation.
If Christ was in the “form of God” (Philippians 2), it would have to be understood that he was of the nature and essence of God, and it describes Christ as he was from all eternity. But even though He did not grasp at that or challenge God the Father in his glory, but instead being of that essence and nature he “made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” to achieve God’s purposes and man’s redemption.
Yes indeed the scripture talk of a coming man, and this was fulfilled in Christ as described above, the Eternal Word becoming flesh and dwelt (tabernacles) among us full of grace and truth. How wonderfully descriptive those words are in scripture. God presented himself in the tabernacle and temple of old which foreshadowed this.
Praise the Lord, it is so wonderful.
Hello Davo,
Welcome to HN. Regarding the above post, you are spot on and a refreshing breeze here!
You said:
Jesus said “I am the root and the offspring of David” (Revelation 22:16) (Isaiah 11:1). How could the person who is Jesus the man, born in time be the root from which David sprang if he did not preexist.
Exactly! I have said the same thing several times.
Jesus said “before Abraham was I am” (John 8:58). How could the person who is Jesus the man born in time be before Abraham if who Jesus was did not preexist.
Exactly! I have said the same thing several times.
If Christ was in the “form of God” (Philippians 2), it would have to be understood that he was of the nature and essence of God, and it describes Christ as he was from all eternity. But even though He did not grasp at that or challenge God the Father in his glory, but instead being of that essence and nature he “made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men” to achieve God’s purposes and man’s redemption.
Totally agree!
Yes indeed the scripture talk of a coming man, and this was fulfilled in Christ as described above, the Eternal Word becoming flesh and dwelt (tabernacles) among us full of grace and truth. How wonderfully descriptive those words are in scripture. God presented himself in the tabernacle and temple of old which foreshadowed this. Praise the Lord, it is so wonderful.
Amen!!
So glad you are here, Davo, in the name of the eternal son, Jesus…please stick around.
LU
Hi David,
What I see from scripture beginning to end, is that which our Heavenly Father told us He declared from the beginning. Isaiah tells us that YHWH declared the END from the beginning, and that end is a New Beginning.
Prophecy was of a human to come. Jesus comes and is said to be a human. Jesus is raised from the dead and said to be a human. Jesus ascended and sits at YHWH’s right hand as a human. Jesus is returning as a human and he is sitting on an eternal throne as a human ruling as a king and lord over other humans.
Before the world began YHWH our heavenly Father promised eternal life. From the beginning we are told by YHWH that He appointed a man to come and execute that PURPOSE, bringing salvation not to just Israel but to all nations.
The purpose declared before the world began was brought forth through ONE MORTAL MAN receiving the full measure of YHWH’s Spirit called an anointing, whereby he was then SENT to set us at liberty, pay the penalty for our sins.
YHWH forgives us of our sins through ONE MAN because of that man’s obedience, which was held because the Spirit was upon him in fullness. That ONE MAN is an example of what the power of God’s Spirit can do for ALL MEN.
YHWH is our SAVIOR, His Spirit in full measure upon a human causes that human to walk in all His ways and thus is worthy of eternal life. His promise is to be ALL IN ALL.
Adam and Eve did not have the fullness of YHWH’s Spirit, they were not capable of following His law, breaking it was an assured thing, and thus mortality and death was an assured thing. All men fall short of dwelling in the image of YHWH, unless you are cleansed through having the fullness of His Spirit, whereby you are able to walk in all of His ways.
The full measure of the One Spirit means there is righteousness and life for mankind. It is because of the power of YHWH’s own Spirit that He forgives us of our sins, because He knew from the beginning that the fullness of the Spirit was that which was needed to be given in the first place in order for us to walk in all His ways, be righteous and have eternal life.
Though our Creator knew we needed the fullness of His Spirit in the first place, it could not be given in the first place. If it were given to Adam and Eve in the first place how would their faith in YHWH be established, unless He wanted humans to be as His puppets?
They wouldn’t know the source of their own righteousness and glory, they would believe in their own independent thinking mind it came from within themselves. In order to not be just puppets and come to have faith in Him, to live in truth as to who He is, who we are, and the power His Spirit can accomplish in us, He couldn’t give us all things in the beginning, what He could do in the beginning is give us His promise.
Jesus represents the power of God’s Spirit upon a man, because of the work by that Spirit and what it accomplished Jesus was not worthy of death but of eternal life. Jesus telling us that he could do nothing of himself, he was giving all the rightful glory to our Father and His Spirit. Jesus being raised from the dead, a witness to many, was for our Creator to bring us into faith in Him and desire the fullness of His Spirit that Jesus had received, knowing that such equates to eternal life.
“Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
“But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.”
LU….you use the word “if” many times in your explanations, of what “you think” it “could” be, but not solid scriptural proofs, Jodi and I want “scriptural proof” if you can’t produce that then it is pure speculations on your and others part.
Taking a scripture and applying something to it you think “might” be right, even though the text does not “specifically” say it , is called “forcing the text” , and should never be excepted as actual “truth” , REMEMBER God wants us to love the “truth”, not someone’s speculations, even though it might be interesting . That’s what has turned our present Christanity into a “mystery religion”, creating the mess it is in today. IMO.
What I like about Jodi, is she uses a list of actual solid scriptures to back up he reasons, and I would like to think I do also. We all know in our bibles are written many scriptures that can be taken in different ways, because of the translation different in languages, so we need to produce many other scriptures in our text , from the old as well as the new Testements to show clearly what we are saying, and Jodi does an excellent job of that, and I’d like to think I do also.
Peaceand love to you and yours. …….gene
Hi Davo,
What I apply which you and others don’t is that YHWH from the beginning said a man would come and execute His purpose.
YHWH tells us directly that He created all things ALONE by himself. When He speaks of creating all things He likewise speaks of calling the son of Jesse to righteousness and directing all his ways for him to accomplish God’s purpose held in the covenant He gave to both Israel and Gentiles. This same man is he who was promised to receive into his hands all the works of YHWH.
When the man who shed his blood is said to be the one whom all things were created through and for, it is of PURE TRUTH to me given YHWH’s word spoken from the beginning and likewise revealed to the prophets, that when YHWH ALONE by HIMSELF was creating all things he was doing it THROUGH/BY REASON of and FOR this man who shed his blood and became the first begotten of the dead overall creation, the firstborn of many brethren.
What you and others do is take passages that are speaking of the Son of Man Jesus, who was of God’s word from the beginning, and change him into a false image and then apply scriptures to be speaking of this false image. Thus your Christ and your Son of God are likewise false images.
When John speaks of Jesus coming after him but being before him, and when Jesus says that before Abraham was “I am”, you have to be mindful of God’s given truth. The very reason why John and Abraham exist in the first place is before they existed, there existence was dependent upon a man coming to execute God’s purpose. Without him, Jesus the Anointed, nothing would have been made that was made.
Before God’s word, “let there be light”, there was the word of God of a man who would be for us as a light bringing forth salvation and eternal life. When God said “let there be light” in the beginning, it was by reason of another light that would come. All things were created through/by reason of that light (the man called to righteousness) and for that light.
Davo, God rested His Spirit upon a man, an anointing and sent him out TO preach, TO deliver captives out of darkness, TO set us at liberty, TO obey all of God’s commands, and fulfill God’s word God declared from the beginning.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. 4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. 5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
with – para, from, of
The Son of Man did the work that God asked him to do upon his anointing of the Spirit and sending.
The Son of Man is asking for the glory that the Son of Man had of our Father before the world was.
What DO WE READ,
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. 32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Davo, you known that this day appointed was appointed before the world began? This man was before all things, first by God’s word before God spoke the world into creation doing so by reason of him, second by God raising him first from the dead, and thirdly by God putting all things into his hands giving him dominion overall things that God created ALONE He says, by Himself He says. This man is before Abraham and John, they first existed because of him and they later exist because of him. He is before them in rank as he sits at God’s right hand, and he is before them as being firstborn of the dead having eternal life.
We are told earlier in Acts 17, “26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
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