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Hi Mike,
1) Yes, Jesus was “Caused to exist at the beginning of his life”
Everyone is Caused to exist at the beginning of their life…
– Everyone was not
– then they were
– then they are not
– then they will be again
– then some of them will not be
– but others will be for everlasting…!Scriptures does not say it was at Jesus' beginning that God said to Jesus “Today, …” – There was NO DAY at the beginning…
The DAY came into existence long after the earth was created – long after the universe was created.
In fact it was after God created Light (Genesis 1:4-5) – the earth was already in existence, according to the Scripture (Genesis 1:1-3)2) Sorry Mike, read the Scriptures again –
The firstborn of Jacob, Reuben, sinned (Where have we heard that before?) by “going up to Jacob's couch” (Whatever that means -Genesis 49:3 – and where have we heard that before…?)
And Judah was “Begotten as firstborn” over his brothers.
And even Jacob was “Begotten firstborn” over his older brother Esau –
And of Joseph's two sons – Ephraim, the younger, was was blessed by Israel over his older brother Manesseh (“for it is written: 'the older shall serve the younger!'”)
And Isaac was begotten firstborn over his older brother Ishmael –– The pattern is there!
– Is there an missable pattern there?
– There is an unmissable pattern there!How many more “Fly by's” need to be done on this – “The pattern is full!” (Ship's Tower Controller, “Top Gun”)
Mike, I am reading Hebrews where it says Jesus was raised from the dead – in the same breath it states that God said to him “Today…”
I am reading Acts 13: where it says that after being raised from the dead God said to him “Today…”
30: but God raised Him (Jesus) from the dead
31: He was seen…
32: And we declare to you glad tidings – that promise which was made to the fathers
33: God has fulfilled this for us their children in that he raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm:
'You are my Son, Today I have begotten you'
34: An that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus:
'I will give you the sure mercies of David'Well, at the very worst, it says when he was baptised – it was when Jesus was “RAISED UP” – whether -Raised up from the Dead or raised Up in Fleshly birth – This block of verses certainly do not allude to when Jesus was 'caused to exist' .
Hebrews 5:5 States that “CHRIST” did not glorify himself to become High Priest but it was He (God) who said to him 'You are my Son, today…'”
In what way was 'pre-Jesus' already glorified to become High Priest and have his father say “you are my Son, today…”?Hebrews 1:1-5 shows Christ being spoken of apre-resurrection – “Being appointed heir of all things” and sitting down at the right hand of God and being made “much better than the angels”. Then finally showing the comparative difference:”For which of the angels did God ever say, ' You are my Son, today…'”
However, in verse 10, there is a clear reference to pre-Christ: “You LORD, in the beginning laid the foundations of the earth…”So we see that a reference to pre-Jesus is clearly delineated.
Mike, you said earlier that you thought that the word “Today” 'just happened to be there' – can you explain what you meant by that. After all, the verse is written FOUR TIMES, once in the old Testament and THREE TIMES in the new.
Finally, ok, it doesn't say “In the throne of God”. I was using it as a metaphor for: “WITH Power and Authority from God”
It actually says that He walked “On the Holy Mountain of God” which equates to “With Power and authority from God”
Ezekiel 28:12-14:
12 “You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.
14 You were the anointed cherub who covers;
I established you;
You were on the holy mountain of God;
You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones.”And you asked me about Satan being called Lucifer: Satan is a title … Lucifer translates as “Morning Star”
Nowhere in Scriptures is Satan actually called Lucifer – This is a name that 'We' have inherited for him from the psalm.. And there is no reason NOT to use to as a reference as it cannot be confused with anyone else in that form.
Isaiah 14:12-14
“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Lucifer, son of the morning!
How you are cut down to the ground,
You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart:
'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation
On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the Most High.'”Why did you ask me this – I have written about this several times – Did you miss all of them – and ALL the other posts dealing directly with SATAN?
Hi Nick,
I wrote a computer program that does that does what you do and there is a fully fledged one called ELIZA… look it up (or not!)
Hi JA,
Yes because the reference to Lucifer occurs only once it cannot be PROVEN[2Cor13]
Neither can Ez 28 so the rest is conjecture.We are to oppose speculations.
Nick,
Please post sensible POSTS. Your “one liners” are not smart, not clever, [mainly] not informative, tedious, monosyllablic, one dimensional, repetitive and boring.
Please post credible information that add value!
It seems you have nothing to add to any debate except to detract – you look for any thread and if you can't contribute [which is most of the time] you post some meaningless nonesense as a doo-doo pat to say “Hey, I was here”.
Nick,
A single “Google” search says overwhelmingly “yes”.
This is not my first foray on this subject and I explained that I am using the name “Lucifer” in place of Satan because Satan is a Title.
there is nothing wrong in doing so as long as I explain – and have done – that that is what I am doing – beside …overwhelmingly it is is in COMMON USAGE.If you disagree with the usage you can say so but not as a statement – do it as a personal “i wouldn't use it” and in any case seeing that you can't post any more than one line at a time what benefit is it for you to try to explain – it would take you several pages of posts to get there.
Hi JA,
Lucifer
“1966” ” a shining one”
from
1984a “shine”Translated as 'morning star' in some versions but should it have been?
Nick, Just for you..
Just ONE of hundreds of (maybe repeated but nonetheless) references…
Quote Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light.” In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as “Day star, son of the Dawn.” The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, “The Sun King”). Nick, i'm going to ignore your posts because this is not what the discussion is about.
This is all pointless… – I am not Proving anything – just referring …Quote (JustAskin @ June 07 2010,07:36) Mike, … old Dogs…, not you – the three T's – TTT – The Trinitarian Tricksters.
Hi JA,
You said:
Quote 1) Yes, Jesus was “Caused to exist at the beginning of his life” Okay. We know he was caused to exist by God, and we know he was the only begotten Son of God BEFORE he came to earth, for he said so in John 3:16-17. What's 1+1, JA?
You said:
Quote Scriptures does not say it was at Jesus' beginning that God said to Jesus “Today, …” – There was NO DAY at the beginning… No, it doesn't. You are correct, sir!
You said:
Quote 2) Sorry Mike, read the Scriptures again – The firstborn of Jacob, Reuben, sinned (Where have we heard that before?)……
Everytime that someone besides the one born first receives firstborn rights, it is explained that way. Is it ever implied that Jesus received firstborn rights, but wasn't actually the firstborn of all creation?
You said:
Quote This block of verses certainly do not allude to when Jesus was 'caused to exist' . And they certainly don't allude to God making that decree the day he was raised, either. Acts makes clear that Paul's “first order of business” after being blinded was to preach in the synagogues that “JESUS IS THE SON OF GOD”, not when he became the Son of God. And you didn't answer before: What promise to “our fathers” was fulfilled by Jesus being raised? Were “our fathers” EVER promised that God would someday beget a Son?
You said:
Quote Hebrews 5:5 States that “CHRIST” did not glorify himself to become High Priest but it was He (God) who said to him 'You are my Son, today…'”
In what way was 'pre-Jesus' already glorified to become High Priest and have his father say “you are my Son, today…”?You're running me around in circles, man. Was “M” also begotten as the Son of God because he was high priest forever? Jesus said, “Father glorify me with the glory I had with you in the beginning, before the creation of the world.” Was not Jesus' Father his Father back then also? Are there scriptures to imply he wasn't?
You said:
Quote Mike, you said earlier that you thought that the word “Today” 'just happened to be there' – can you explain what you meant by that. After all, the verse is written FOUR TIMES, once in the old Testament and THREE TIMES in the new. Read Psalm 2. That is the scripture Paul is quoting. The scripture has the word “Today” in it, and Paul did not exclude the word, but left it in his quote. It by no means should be taken to mean that Jesus became the only begotten Son of God when he was raised. AGAIN, IF THAT IS THE CASE, WHO WAS HE WHEN HE SAID GOD SENT HIS ONLY BEGOTTEN SON INTO THE WORLD?
You said:
Quote Finally, ok, it doesn't say “In the throne of God”. Bummer, you got me all worked up for nothing.
You said:
Quote And you asked me about Satan being called Lucifer: Satan is a title … Lucifer translates as “Morning Star” Jesus calls himself the “Morning Star” in Rev 22:16. Jesus isn't “Lucifer”, is he? I'll stick with Satan and the Devil, thanks. No one confuses those titles with anyone else.
You said:
Quote Why did you ask me this – I have written about this several times – Did you miss all of them – and ALL the other posts dealing directly with SATAN? Yes, I must have. I'm real sorry I haven't read every post you've ever written, JA.
The truth is, I AM old. I can only keep up with 5 or 6 topics at a time. There are others that look interesting, but sometimes I don't even peek for fear of temptation of posting. Because once I post, I must check in with that topic every time I'm on HN.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ June 07 2010,10:33) Nick, Just for you.. Just ONE of hundreds of (maybe repeated but nonetheless) references…
Quote Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light.” In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as “Day star, son of the Dawn.” The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, “The Sun King”).
JA…………I also see the term Lucifer in the same way, and Isaiah was to to take the message to the King of Babylon. Not some elusive fallen angle named Lucifer or SATAN.peace and love to you and yours……………..gene
Man, there are some hang up issues here.
To all, and noone.
Lucifer is NOT SATAN… BUT we use the name to allude to Him FROM COMMON USAGE.
Scriptures states that “Lucifer” the bright and morning Star – the Brightest Star in God's Heavens – has fallen (OT)
At the end of Revelation Jesus declares himself to be “The morning Star” – yet NO ONE ever makes the MOST BLINDINGLY OBVIOUS Connection:
“It must have been Jesus that fell – because He is the Morning Star…..” Why is that? Because it's FALSE…. So Who IS THAT 'Morning Star that fell?Scriptures tells us that “One of the Princes [Princes: The Mighty Ones , The Principle Son's of God] has fallen” is there a connection there…
Scriptures also tells us that the Morning Stars Sang together (…and the Sons of God shouted for joy)
– Who are the “Morning STARS” (Plural) and who are the 'Sons of God'?One Morning Star has Fallen – and one declares himself to BE “the Morning Star” (Singular) …is there a neural connection forming anywhere?
Should I push the boat out or keep it moored concerning Genesis: “HE MADE THE STARS ALSO.”
Mike, you asked me was God the Father not the Father of “Jesus” before he came to earth.
Yes, he was – AND he was Father to all the other sentient created Spirits – that didn't come to earth… Thats why they are called “SONS OF GOD” Because God is their Father – Simples, yeah? “Father –> Sons” “Sons –> Father”, geddit?Mike,
I read a report today about two Offenders knocked at the door of an elderly woman and then pushed past her when she opened the door.
They took her handbag (hmmm…must have been a nice one!) – which contained a sizeable amount of cash that she had just taken out of the bank – as they do… The offenders had followed her home.Now, Were these two people “Offenders” BEFORE they committed the crime – the law says “NO”. They BECAME offenders as and after they committed the offence.
Yet the report makes them out to be OFFENDERS BEFORE they had committed any offence (Is it an offence to follow an old lady home? Point of order: please just answer the question as stated!)Ok, you are going to say you don't see the connection.
Well, why did the reporter put them down as “Offenders” before the event – Because s/he had the privilege of Hindsight – The reporter already knew that they were offenders that s/he was writing about.
Same with the Gospel writers – They also knew with Hindsight that God would send his [To be] Only Begotten Son.
How many people are called “Son-in-Law” before they are actually married? Anticipation of a 'done deal'.
Why did the dog salivate before it had tasted it's food? 'Previous experience of the same food”.
Would it wrong to write (Ha!) that the heir to the inheritance of the covenant of God was raised from the dead even though he was only declared heir after he was raised?
Mike, why are you being resistant – you openly declare that you would change your mind if you could be shown proof … yet I know —- that you can see it yet still struggle. Why?
Hi JA,
You have ONE verse in the OT that refers to a SHINING ONE and that is poorly translated as MORNING STAR.Now you decide by implication it must relate to the true MORNING STAR, the Spirit of Christ Jesus [Rev22, 2 Peter 1]
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