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Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 13 2010,17:10) WJ,
I have seen your post concerning JA's 'begetting Mike' and that was 'right on'. Even JA didn't spot that!Shimmer, please stay…just don't get deeply involved.
You are a 'leveller' who brings us back to simple reality, and such ones are needed here.
Yes, you suffer for it, but you suffer in Christ, and that is worthy!!
Mike, I even forget what it is you are actually disputing, so long has this beat gone on…
R&B rap:
'So long as the beat goes on'
[How long will] the beat go on?..
One, two, this is what you do'All,
Edj, has listed Seven (significant?) points at which 'Jesus' is 'Begotten'.
Each of these links to 'Begotten' as thought of byeach of us.
Gene says, 'At his anointing/Baptism'
Mike says, 'At his coming into existence in Heaven'
The three 'J's say, 'At his resurrection'.
Others say, the others as well, perhaps.Now, it is patently clear that 'Jesus' 'came into existence' at some point. Was 'caused to be'. Was 'Begotten' before the ages…ha! before time and 'Days'.
But, then, so were the rest of the Heavenly beings!No one, except Trinis (And even they don't actaully believe it themselves), does not believe that 'Jesus' was not 'caused to be', therefore that is a none issue.
There is no emphasis put on 'Jesus'' 'begetting' before time, before the ages and certainly no mention of the 'How'.
Now let us not be silly and talk about God having sex with Himself or 'procreation' for these are fleshly concepts.
God is Spirit, God is Almighty, God Contains All Things…and All Things are Contained in God, the Almighty.Therefore, 'creating' a separate 'Spirit being' from within Himself, Within Himself, is wholly in order of the way of things.
The human mind cannot fathom this, so we try to see it in human terms…how can something reproduce? something from itself, within itself??
The book of Revelation gives an insight into the 'throne room' of God. In there 'Jesus', the Lamb, is shown…only to be AMONG the throng around and in the midst of God's throne. He is only picked out when no one else was found worthy to open the scroll…why is this significant?
Is it because, although God forknew he would the sacrifice, hence metaphoricaly 'slaughtered before the ages', there was no other special emphasis placed on him?
Therefore, no special emphasis on him being 'begotten' over any that of any other heavenly being.
So, where IS the special emphasis on being 'begotten' placed?
Quite clearly, at his overcoming Sin and Death, at his being 'Raised Up'(Begotten'), raised up to Spirit (Begotten), to become preEminent (Begotten) over his brothers…who are 'his brothers'??
Hence God spoke to 'them' and to him saying, 'This day (That I raised you up) You have become my Son and I have become your Father'
JA………..Good Post.peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2010,02:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 11 2010,02:49) t8 You once said…”The Father is 'who' God is and the “Spirit” is 'what' God is”.
So instead of using the word “Substance” since that seems to bother you, though it is a “Scriptural” term, lets use the word “Spirit”.
There is “One Spirit”, and my Bible tells me that “the Lord is that Spirit” and that the Spirit is called the “Spirit of the Lord”, the “Spirit of God”, the “Spirit of Jesus”, the “Spirit of Christ”, the “Holy Spirit”,, the “Spirit of Truth”, the “Comforter”, the “Spirit of the Son, and on and on which all speak of that “One Selfsame Spirit” which we have been made to drink of and which joins the Body of Jesus Christ, the Temple of God as an Holy Habitation of God through his Spirit
It's quite simple WJ.God is Spirit, Jesus has a spirit, and you and I have a spirit.
Now, God and Jesus are one in spirit and the Church can be one in spirit too. This is how we can be one with God, Jesus, and each other. In spirit.
Angels are also spirits, and the Father again, is the father of all spirits.
Again, it is by reason of your doctrine that confuses you. Starting with the Trinity Doctrine, you end up confusing Jesus with God.
Try starting without it and let scripture say what it wants to say. Things will be much clearer and contradictions will evaporate.
t8Nice try but the Bible doesn't say we have recieved more than “One Spirit” does it?
And as far as us being “One in Spirit” is not the same as being “One Spirit” is it?
Do you say that your Spirit is the “Spirit of God” or the “Spirit of Keith”?
But the scriptures says the Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God.
Surely you understand this and see the difference!
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 13 2010,02:07) Angels are also spirits, and the Father again, is the father of all spirits.
Yea I have heard you say this before as if the Father is the Father of all.Is he the Father of satan or satans children? (Ye are of your father the devil)
WJ
Kathi said:
Quote Keith,
You have called me many things that I am not and I do not care to go through the threads but these are some that come to mind:Dishonest
Arian
Polytheist
anti-trinitarian
that I insist that 'begotten' always means to be 'born'
Kathi,So you concede that “begotten” does not always mean “born?”
Roo
Lightenup, there is nothing wrong with someone wishing to distance themselves from a conversation. If I believe that what is spoken here is heretical, am I to stay and try to help you and Mike ? Would'nt scripture agree ? I told everyone here ages ago something didn't feel right, what I spoke the other day you never took heed, you carried on with it. That is your choice.
Which is why I said to you JustAskin, if you wish to take part in something like this, it's a risk you have to take that you don't start believing what they are saying yourself.
Shimmer,
You should have gone several pages back before you left your negative inuendo. That is my point. Certainly you should go and if you went when God told you I would not have asked you to back up your negative inuendo to me because you would not have been here to write it. See! You need not respond.
Obey God and love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you.Lightenup, I'm trying to help you and Mike though you don't see it that way, I have nothing against either of you. Genuine concern that is all,
Shimmer,
Thank you sister, but you need not worry that JustAskin will start believing what is not Scriptural – although the “TEMPTATION” is always there – Satan is not unaware of whom to target with 'tidbits' of truth mixed with falsity…!
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 13 2010,21:24) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2010,00:01) Hi Shimmer, Your Posting the thoughts of others as well.
If you agree with something someone else says,
instead of importing their writing, absorb the points
you agree with and re-word those points through 'your'
filters; OK? Then we have something to discuss! Importing
someone else's words is NOT helpful; I won't bother to read it!
So you are wasting our time and the space of valued Posts here!
I didn't include you, because I want your words; not those of others!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,This is the word's which came to me today,
God sent his spoken word into the world through the man Christ Jesus
The word was God.
My human mind understands this as; God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own. Therefore, In the Beginning was the word [The spoken word of God, part of God just as our speech is part of us] the word was with God and the word was God, so this man Christ Jesus born of a virgin, receiving the Holy Spirit at Baptism, spoke the word of God. The man Christ Jesus was crucified but on the third day was risen from the dead, taken up and begotten of God. He then was seated in a position of power and authority at the right hand of God,
Please though this is just my understanding today,
Is this Trinitarian or non Trinitarian, that's where I'm curious. Anyone ?
Hi Shimmer,Thank you!
Always stay open to Our Father!“HolySpirit“ = “Father: The Word“ … (Click Here)
John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and
“The Word” which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me,
he gave me a commandment, what I(Jesus) should say, and what I should speak.“The Word” is (אלהים) “GOD” (John 1:1)! Jesus is “A Word”!
“The Word” (Hō Lōgôs) [ο λογος]=443 is the 86th prime
meaning [אלהים=86] “GOD” ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63 (YHVH=63)!The “HolySpirit” is “The Word”(of God)!
Hebrew↔Greek
(86)אלהים=ο λογος(86th Prime)
(ĔL-ō-Hêêm)God=The Word(Hō Lōgôs)(Lōgôs) [λογος]=373 means “Word”, and 373 is the 74th Prime Number!
(Hō Lōgôs) [ο λογος]=443 means “The Word” and 443 is the 86th Prime Number. (John 1:1)
“God Word”=86 and אלהים=86 ĔL-ō-Hêêm both equal 86 and ĔL-ō-Hêêm=63 means “YHVH”=63.In English, the significant number (74) is attributed to JOSHUA=74, Messiah=74;
also in the following: JESUS=74, Cross=74, Gospel=74, עד=74, and even English=74.
Jesus Christ (74×32) also factors 74 in Greek Theomatically:
[Jesus] Ιησους=74(x12), [Christ] Χριστоς=74(x20).
[Son of Man] υιος τον ανθρωπου=74(x40).This symbol ( > ) means GREATER THAN in mathematics
The pieces fit together perfectly: “The Word” (86) > “Word” (74).
In English it's comparable to (The LORD JEHOVAH) > (Lord Jesus=74) is the “God Son”=74!
“The Owner” > “Owner “
JEHOVAH > Jesus
86 > 74Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (shimmer @ Aug. 14 2010,05:24) Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 13 2010,00:01) Hi Shimmer, Your Posting the thoughts of others as well.
If you agree with something someone else says,
instead of importing their writing, absorb the points
you agree with and re-word those points through 'your'
filters; OK? Then we have something to discuss! Importing
someone else's words is NOT helpful; I won't bother to read it!
So you are wasting our time and the space of valued Posts here!
I didn't include you, because I want your words; not those of others!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Ed,This is the word's which came to me today,
God sent his spoken word into the world through the man Christ Jesus
The word was God.
My human mind understands this as; God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own. Therefore, In the Beginning was the word [The spoken word of God, part of God just as our speech is part of us] the word was with God and the word was God, so this man Christ Jesus born of a virgin, receiving the Holy Spirit at Baptism, spoke the word of God. The man Christ Jesus was crucified but on the third day was risen from the dead, taken up and begotten of God. He then was seated in a position of power and authority at the right hand of God,
Please though this is just my understanding today,
Is this Trinitarian or non Trinitarian, that's where I'm curious. Anyone ?
Hi Shimmer,There is only one part that I saw that would be Trinitarian in concept: Word = God or Son = Father
Since Greek doesn't have the word “of” try placing that in front of the last word “God” in John 1:1 and the sentence would make sense with everything else you wrote, and the rest of Scriptures.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was (of) God.
Jhn 1:2 He (this one) was in the beginning with God.
To be WITH someone there needs to be at least two someones; otherwise if the Word is God the sentence would read: In the beginning was God.
Why play around with Word being WITH God? If Word was God?
I don't think that you would buy into the idea that the son is the Father, would you?
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Son and the Son was with the Father and the Son was the Father?
? son = father physically impossible!!The Professor
PS If Jesus was God, how could you kill God?
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,01:43) t8 Nice try but the Bible doesn't say we have recieved more than “One Spirit” does it?
And as far as us being “One in Spirit” is not the same as being “One Spirit” is it?
WJ, yes it was a nice try and there is another one.If we are one in spirit with Jesus and with each other, then it means that we are one in God. Why?
Because the Father is the father of spirits.
“Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our spirits and live!”
So if we are in Christ, then we have unity with God and hence are one with God.
Simple.
No need to get all confused and say that all who have a spirit or all that we can be one with in Spirit is God. No need for this type of thinking at all when your mind is free.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 14 2010,01:43) Yea I have heard you say this before as if the Father is the Father of all. Is he the Father of satan or satans children? (Ye are of your father the devil)
Come on now WJ. What sort of argument is that. We both know that God is the God of all good and no evil is in him. Sure, these spirits may once have come from him, but they chose iniquity over God and hence they left their former habitations. There is no need to throw up this as a smoke screen. It is irrelevant.When it comes to evil as you say, Satan is a father and a god.
So why can't you accept this as being true with God. That he is the Father of spirits. And that includes the Father of Jesus Christ.
i.e., the Father is the God off our Lord Jesus Christ.
Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 13 2010,21:24) My human mind understands this as; God spoke through the MAN Jesus. Therefore the words which Jesus spoke were not his own. Therefore, In the Beginning was the word [The spoken word of God, part of God just as our speech is part of us] the word was with God and the word was God, so this man Christ Jesus born of a virgin, receiving the Holy Spirit at Baptism, spoke the word of God. The man Christ Jesus was crucified but on the third day was risen from the dead, taken up and begotten of God. He then was seated in a position of power and authority at the right hand of God,
Hi Shimmer,Don't sweat it, just keep reading scripture and praying. I'm not sure I consider the words I speak as part of my being as you believe. And I'm not sure why you would agree with the three J's about Jesus receiving the “title” or “position” of only begotten Son of God. That's not what scripture says and you know by now that KJ and WJ have to twist the scriptures to make it so Jesus didn't have a beginning at all.
And I notice you follow what JA says and consider him as kind of a spiritual guide. He follows scripture on most issues, but he also has an ulterior motive on this one. He doesn't want Jesus to be the literal firstborn of God because he thinks Satan is.
Shimmer, read Genesis 5 about the history of mankind…….who fathered whom and such. Every time you read “so and so was begotten by so and so”, that word begotten is the Hebrew word “yalad”. And everytime it means that one caused the other to exist. Why would this word not mean the same thing when God said, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”?
I've asked for reasons that this word is somehow “metaphorical” when referring to God and Jesus, but there is no reply from the three J's because there is absolutely nothing in the text to imply it is metaphorical.
So you do the math. Think from scripture, not from man with ulterior motives. Just read the scripture Shimmer. It says God begot a Son. It doesn't EVER imply it was some sort of a metaphorical begetting.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ Aug. 14 2010,10:52) Shimmer, Thank you sister, but you need not worry that JustAskin will start believing what is not Scriptural – although the “TEMPTATION” is always there – Satan is not unaware of whom to target with 'tidbits' of truth mixed with falsity…!
OK.Mike,
When referring to my reference to Satan, please bear in mind that I am referring… to the Anointed Cherub as Lucifer, not the Fallen Devil as he became.
You see I quote “PreJesus” and “He whom became known as…” to qualify my statements.
I also refer to the supporting phrase: “He Taketh away the FIRST in order to establish the SECOND”.
There is also, “The First shall be Last and the Last shall be First”Is there anything in Scriptures that alludes to this:
- Cain/Abel
- Cain/Seth
- Ismael/Isaac
- Esau/Jacob
- Saul/David (first Kings)
- Absolom/Solomon (King of kings)
- (… someone fill in here for me – i'm a bit hazy on the middle aged Scripture …)
- John/Jesus (The Light Bearer and the Light
- Adam/Jesus (Holy Spirit Human Sons of God)
- (Lucifer/Jesus?) (Original Holy Spirit Spirit Sons of God)(Controversially)
Thank you Ed.
————–
David, I get you. The word was of God would make sense to me, as I said on another thread though, I'm still trying to figure it out !
————-
Mike, thank you for the advice,
Keith,
When Mke wrote this to you
Quote The only reason your precious trinity even exists at all is because the man who was Emperor at the time shoved it down their throats. This man was a pagan who didn't even confess to Christianity until he lay on his death bed. Gotta love the trinity, hey Keith?
How did you feel?If it is firmly established that the Trinity was endorsed forcibly by a Pagan [Christain] do you not feel even a little queasy about it?
If Satan came to you and said “Keith, you can become as God” would you baulk at the idea and say, “get the away from me” or say “How?”.
Keith, even saying “How” is tantamount to sinning, by the implication that you entertained the thought – even for a moment!
Mike,
From page 72:
When did any of your “Let's take things point by point” ever end up “point by Point”?This forum is littered with this “begotten” (Who started this?) theme. If all you are saying is that Jesus had a beginning when God created him and you call this being “Begotten” then let it be.
This, however, is a human concept. A Spirit does not “Give Birth” to anything. This is a human concept because Human being are limited in their ability and dimensions.
A Spirit (read: “God” here) and only God can CREATE another Spirit because ALL Spirit is IN and FROM him. It is the 'intelligence' in Creation.
Even the Angels could only create a physical body as man – they then had to occupy them with their own Spirit – Not a separate Spirit.
The children they produced had LIFE because God designed the “seed” of man to acquire Spirit – had he stopped it then that would have been reneging – and God does not renege (Regret – yes, but renege – Not at all)
Mike, how long will your “…Beat go on” (McFadden and Whitehead) … seems like it's gonna be an “All Night Party” (…?) with all of us “Dancing on the ceiling” (Lionel Ritchie)
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 14 2010,23:46) A Spirit (read: “God” here) and only God can CREATE another Spirit because ALL Spirit is IN and FROM him. It is the 'intelligence' in Creation.
JA………..Howl la lou ya brother………..Findley someone who understands what Spirit really IS> Intellect, and is in everything that has life in it. It is what Life (IS).It is the (FORCE) of LIFE operating in all LIFE. And it is Intellect at work in all creation of GOD. So the hidden thing of GOD can be seen by the things created. Because everything in existence has a force of Intellect operating (IN) it so GOD is in IT. God lives vicariously (IN) and through his creation. That is how he know even when a sparrow dies and falls to the ground. IMO
peace and love………………..gene
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