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Hi Rm,
I see a few problems here. First, Jesus was never “God in the flesh”. Jesus has been the Son of God since he was begotten before all the ages – not God Himself. God hasn't made any “intelligent” being that scripture says was “unable to sin”, or “perfect”. If I'm mistaken, show the scripture where God made man or angel or Son “perfect”.
The fact that Jesus and many of God's other creations have “ACTED perfectly” since they were formed does not imply that God didn't make them all with free will.
Consider the angels…….Michael and Gabriel have “perfectly” followed their God's will for a long time, but does that mean angels were made “perfect”? Apparently not, considering Satan and his followers.
So, while you blatanly claim I am wrong and Kathi is right, you offer no scripture to support your claim that Jesus could not ever sin.
On the other hand, I offer the logic that it would have been senseless for Satan to even tempt Jesus if he couldn't sin in the first place. IMO, that's the lesson of the temptation: Jesus could have sinned, but stood firm in his support and obeisance to his God.
ps…….God can't die.
peace and love,
mikeTo ALL………….Here is what you have here , basically three groups of Opinions.
One………GOD is Jesus who preexisted and Morphed himself as a Man (in) disguised and died and raised himself from the grave.
One………A preexistence Angle was Jesus who morphed Himself as a disguised human being died and God raised him up from the dead.
One ……. God brought forth from the Human Race a (MAN) and Perfected Him and raised him back to life from the grave. And gave this (MAN) a SON of MAN great power and authority as a (BEGOTTEN) SON of GOD, Just like we also can become by doing it the same way the MAN Jesus Did.
Now which is the best example for mankind , a perfect God, who always was perfect and all knowing who could not learn obedience because he is GOD and does not have to obey anyone, Or a preexisting Perfect Angle who morphed himself into a human Being and walked perfectly on earth, never mind he already was perfect and without sin before he ever was morphed, Or a 100% Pure Human Being born from Man and Only a Man whom GOD Perfected and Caused Him to walk as a man without sin and raised this (MAN) up from the Grave and gave Him eternal life and authority over His brother and sisters who were of Mankind Just as He was and Is.
You preexistences as well a Trinitarians are both in great error and resisting the work of GOD the Father and Jesus our Lord and brother. You are both Antichrists and have separated Jesus likeness from Us and will all answer for it also.
Of all these examples which one would give Mankind a (TRUE) example of what GOD can Do for those who seek Him with all there hearts and minds . Where is you common sense at? God was not interested in perfecting Angles at all but Mankind is who he is dealing With.
Why don't you preexistences just join the Trinitarians , why stand in middle ground, you have come part way out of those apostate teaching but no all the way out. You are in a Luke warn position, IMO.
But, ALL of you who believe that Jesus was a 100% pure human being and GOD took this man and perfected Him into His very own dear Son as and example to all of Mankind of His Power that He can accomplish in and through Us ALL and put you trust in Him as the MAN Jesus did, You shall greately rejoice in the Day of Christ Jesus, when the (SON OF MAN), returns. He will still be a Son of Mankind and a Son of GOD also, as all who are raised up to be with him will be to. We will Just like Jesus all be sons and daughters of GOD and Sons and daughters of Man too, not one ounce different then Jesus is now and for ever. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………gene
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 07 2010,19:25) Hi Rm, I see a few problems here. First, Jesus was never “God in the flesh”. Jesus has been the Son of God since he was begotten before all the ages – not God Himself. God hasn't made any “intelligent” being that scripture says was “unable to sin”, or “perfect”. If I'm mistaken, show the scripture where God made man or angel or Son “perfect”.
The fact that Jesus and many of God's other creations have “ACTED perfectly” since they were formed does not imply that God didn't make them all with free will.
Consider the angels…….Michael and Gabriel have “perfectly” followed their God's will for a long time, but does that mean angels were made “perfect”? Apparently not, considering Satan and his followers.
So, while you blatanly claim I am wrong and Kathi is right, you offer no scripture to support your claim that Jesus could not ever sin.
On the other hand, I offer the logic that it would have been senseless for Satan to even tempt Jesus if he couldn't sin in the first place. IMO, that's the lesson of the temptation: Jesus could have sinned, but stood firm in his support and obeisance to his God.
ps…….God can't die.
peace and love,
mike
hey mike,I dont know if you read my previous post.
But i agree with you except the point that Jesus is not God of course.I agree with this, that perfection comes through obdeiance in Gods will.
That even though they were made perfectly.
Jesus made perfectly.
Hebrews 5:8
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey himHere is the point mike, they were made perfect, with all the tools needed to continue being perfect, but it does not imply that they dont have the ability to become imperfect or flawed by disobeying or sinnning.
Jesus Could have sin if he chose to, but of course he wouldnt do such a thing because he perfectly sought God.
Man never killed Jesus, its God wrath that Killed Jesus, therefore its God who took our suffering, in other words its God who took our place as the perfect lamb.
Much love,
How interesting,
I think SF's along with Gene's and mike's input has just about covered the major bases concerning opinions on Christ.
Oh, yeah, and there is JustAskin's!
Gene ——- } {
SF ——— } — { Truth
Mike ——- } {
JustAskin— } {Who is closer to the Truth?
Well, that is quite simple to answer : The one that most closely holds to the Scriptures (discrepancies, misunderstandings, unrevealed-revelations aside)
Who is going to make the claim that it is they – and lay out their proof: Bring out your BEST PROOF, please.
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 07 2010,23:48) How interesting, I think SF's along with Gene's and mike's input has just about covered the major bases concerning opinions on Christ.
Oh, yeah, and there is JustAskin's!
Gene ——- } {
SF ——— } — { Truth
Mike ——- } {
JustAskin— } {Who is closer to the Truth?
Well, that is quite simple to answer : The one that most closely holds to the Scriptures (discrepancies, misunderstandings, unrevealed-revelations aside)
Who is going to make the claim that it is they – and lay out their proof: Bring out your BEST PROOF, please.
none of the above,
Only God holds the abosolute truth.
deny ourselvesAnd by the way, and having not read the posts from previous pages, but Mike is right (top post on this page)…
…except that, Mike, you may want to consider that “Lucifer” was “Perfect in the day of his creation until iniquity was found in him”
Consider what “Perfect” means ..consider “Perfect for the 'purpose' for which he was created”
A Screwdriver is created as a tool
It is a perfect tool for screwing in Screws
But it may not be the Perfect Tool for hammering Nails
But it is both “Screwdriver” and a “Tool”
And is a “Perfect Screwdriver Tool”Hey, that didn't even rhymm…!
Ha! what's that? “about time….!”…And “God in the flesh” means “The qualities of God ensconced in a fleshly being”.
The “QUALITIES OF GOD” – not “God” himself.
Thus Jesus rightly says “If you have seen me, then you have seen the father also”.
Not the physical person of Jesus – You can't SEE GOD – God is Spirit (Philip!!) but you CAN see HIS QUALITIES (Thomas!!).
Jesus is always speaking in the Spiritual sense, with a Spiritual eye, a Spiritual eye can see the essence of God.
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,06:12) And by the way, and having not read the posts from previous pages, but Mike is right (top post on this page)… …except that, Mike, you may want to consider that “Lucifer” was “Perfect in the day of his creation until iniquity was found in him”
Hi JA,I'd like to see that “perfect Satan” scripture. Where is it?
And maybe, like SF said, we need to better define “perfect”. All God's creations were created “perfectly” by their perfect God.
But some people here think being “perfect” means you have no free will, or that you couldn't sin if you wanted to.
I disagree with that.
mike
Mike,
I dubbed you “Thomas” – How such like (Twice now, I hope you don't make it a third time, or I may have to call you Philip and Peter as well!!).Are you really asking me to point out Scripture to you :
“How long have you been [studying the Scriptures] and yet you ask 'Show me the Scripture'”
“Do not be unbelieving, but believing”, JustAskin does not post to deceive…Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,07:10) Mike,
I dubbed you “Thomas” – How such like (Twice now, I hope you don't make it a third time, or I may have to call you Philip and Peter as well!!).Are you really asking me to point out Scripture to you :
“How long have you been [studying the Scriptures] and yet you ask 'Show me the Scripture'”
“Do not be unbelieving, but believing”, JustAskin does not post to deceive…
I know you wouldn't purposely, but this IS still the same JA who thought the “two fools” story was Biblical, right?We all make mistakes. Is there really a scripture that says Satan was made “perfect”?
mike/Thomas
Mike,
Put you finger here: Ezekiel 28:15, and see the verse: “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,07:20) Mike, Put you finger here: Ezekiel 28:15, and see the verse: “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
Hi JA,Ahh…..I see. I don't read the KJV – it's too hard for me to even understand what it's saying.
But here are some other translations:NET © You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.
NIV Eze 28:15
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.NASB Eze 28:15
“You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.NLT Eze 28:15
“You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you.BBE Eze 28:15
There has been no evil in your ways from the day when you were made, till sin was seen in you.NRSV Eze 28:15
You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.That's why I probably never heard that claim before. It also may be because it has to do with Adam, not Satan.
At least that's what the NETBible scholars seem to think:
The imagery of the lament appears to draw upon an extrabiblical Eden tradition about the expulsion of the first man from the garden due to his pride. The biblical Eden tradition speaks of cherubs placed as guardians at the garden entrance following the sin of Adam and Eve (Gen 3:24), but no guardian cherub like the one described in verse 14 is depicted or mentioned in the biblical account.
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eze&chapter=28#n19
So don't get all condescending with me mister!
mike
Mike,
Not 'Wise Man (with Foolish heart!) vs Fool man (who thinks he has a Wise Head)', but what also I was trying to say in regard to wrangling with Gene, try: 1 Timothy 6:4-5,Mike,
Are you seriously saying that you think Ezekiel 28:15, is about Adam?
Please brother, think again… I urge you with genuine concern.
Consider:
Why is he called the “Anointed Cherub”?
What was it that he “Covers”?
Also, What are the “Fiery Stones” that he walked amongst?
And what is the significance of being on God's Holy Mountain (What is God's Holy Mountain?)And how is all this analogous to the King of Tyre, spoken of in the previous passage?
Understand these things and you will understand that which is to be understood.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 08 2010,02:04) Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,07:20) Mike, Put you finger here: Ezekiel 28:15, and see the verse: “Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.”
Hi JA,Ahh…..I see. I don't read the KJV – it's too hard for me to even understand what it's saying.
But here are some other translations:NET © You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you.
NIV Eze 28:15
You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.NASB Eze 28:15
“You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created Until unrighteousness was found in you.NLT Eze 28:15
“You were blameless in all you did from the day you were created until the day evil was found in you.BBE Eze 28:15
There has been no evil in your ways from the day when you were made, till sin was seen in you.NRSV Eze 28:15
You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.That's why I probably never heard that claim before. It also may be because it has to do with Adam, not Satan.
At least that's what the NETBible scholars seem to think:
The imagery of the lament appears to draw upon an extrabiblical Eden tradition about the expulsion of the first man from the garden due to his pride. The biblical Eden tradition speaks of cherubs placed as guardians at the garden entrance following the sin of Adam and Eve (Gen 3:24), but no guardian cherub like the one described in verse 14 is depicted or mentioned in the biblical account.
http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Eze&chapter=28#n19
So don't get all condescending with me mister!
mike
dude you already lost this point.Its obvously talking about Satan.
And it says his ways are perfect.
Ezequiel 28:15 Perfecto eras en todos tus caminos desde el día que fuiste criado, hasta que se halló en ti maldad.
Mike im starting to see everything you believe is basd on the netbible,
you need start reading the orginal greek or start reading the kjv, because your so lost in that net.bible. or whatever translation ur reading.
Quote (JustAskin @ Aug. 08 2010,08:36) Mike, Are you seriously saying that you think Ezekiel 28:15, is about Adam?
Please brother, think again… I urge you with genuine concern.
Consider:
Why is he called the “Anointed Cherub”?
What was it that he “Covers”?
Also, What are the “Fiery Stones” that he walked amongst?
And what is the significance of being on God's Holy Mountain (What is God's Holy Mountain?)And how is all this analogous to the King of Tyre, spoken of in the previous passage?
Understand these things and you will understand that which is to be understood.
Hi JA,To be honest, I haven't even looked into it until I asked you about the “perfect Satan” verse. When I get time, I'll read through it and see if I agree with your interpretation, or the scholars at NETBible.
Btw, whether it is about Adam or Satan, it is definitely NOT proof that someone was created “perfect”, at least not in the sense this discussion is about. This started because Kathi thinks that Jesus is perfect the same way God is, and that he never even could have sinned in the first place.
Do you agree?
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 08 2010,02:20) To ALL………….Here is what you have here , basically three groups of Opinions. One………GOD is Jesus who preexisted and Morphed himself as a Man (in) disguised and died and raised himself from the grave.
One………A preexistence Angle was Jesus who morphed Himself as a disguised human being died and God raised him up from the dead.
One ……. God brought forth from the Human Race a (MAN) and Perfected Him and raised him back to life from the grave. And gave this (MAN) a SON of MAN great power and authority as a (BEGOTTEN) SON of GOD, Just like we also can become by doing it the same way the MAN Jesus Did.
Now which is the best example for mankind , a perfect God, who always was perfect and all knowing who could not learn obedience because he is GOD and does not have to obey anyone, Or a preexisting Perfect Angle who morphed himself into a human Being and walked perfectly on earth, never mind he already was perfect and without sin before he ever was morphed, Or a 100% Pure Human Being born from Man and Only a Man whom GOD Perfected and Caused Him to walk as a man without sin and raised this (MAN) up from the Grave and gave Him eternal life and authority over His brother and sisters who were of Mankind Just as He was and Is.
You preexistences as well a Trinitarians are both in great error and resisting the work of GOD the Father and Jesus our Lord and brother. You are both Antichrists and have separated Jesus likeness from Us and will all answer for it also.
Of all these examples which one would give Mankind a (TRUE) example of what GOD can Do for those who seek Him with all there hearts and minds . Where is you common sense at? God was not interested in perfecting Angles at all but Mankind is who he is dealing With.
Why don't you preexistences just join the Trinitarians , why stand in middle ground, you have come part way out of those apostate teaching but no all the way out. You are in a Luke warn position, IMO.
But, ALL of you who believe that Jesus was a 100% pure human being and GOD took this man and perfected Him into His very own dear Son as and example to all of Mankind of His Power that He can accomplish in and through Us ALL and put you trust in Him as the MAN Jesus did, You shall greately rejoice in the Day of Christ Jesus, when the (SON OF MAN), returns. He will still be a Son of Mankind and a Son of GOD also, as all who are raised up to be with him will be to. We will Just like Jesus all be sons and daughters of GOD and Sons and daughters of Man too, not one ounce different then Jesus is now and for ever. IMO
peace and love to you all………………………gene
Your third option is extremely biased with language…Second off, it'd make a lot more sense if Jesus didn't attribute himself with things that should only belong to God alone.
and also, if he was born of a MAN and a WOMAN…
if he was a perfected man, what is the purpose of his virgin birth?
Mike, did I not give the “correct” definition of “Perfect” – “Perfect for the PURPOSE for which it was created”.
Man was created “perfect” for the purpose that God created him – did not mean he could not evolve – clearly, he was to do so.
If God had created a “Perfect” system as he is “Perfect” then there COULD NOT BE ANY Change – There would be NOTHING to change – it would be PERFECT. So, not NOT GOD-PERFECT, but MAN-PERFECT – perfect within the system he was created to occupy and manage – perfect to develop, create, utilise, evolve, manage, husband (the animals), build, and be a 'god in his own world' and within God's World.
Angels do not change, they are Spirit, Spirit does not change, Spirit is of God and that which is of God does not Sin but the mind of the Spirit can change and if it can change then it is subject to doing wrong – in most cases it is held righteous but 'Lucifer' sought his glory because he had Wisdom and Power above the 'others' and became more powerful than they and this caused him to crave a share in the glory and worship of God.
Did you spot the “Mountain of God” and who the “fiery Stones” are in that ditty?
'Lucifer' was in God's direct presence, in his Power and authority, he was 'Before God' and thought he should also BE GOD – “But you are Angel and Not a God”
Hi JA,
First, I just took a quick glance, and I'm not sure at this point that Ez is about anything but Tyre.
Second, where did you learn this:
Quote Angels do not change, they are Spirit, Spirit does not change, Spirit is of God and that which is of God does not Sin but the mind of the Spirit can change and if it can change then it is subject to doing wrong – in most cases it is held righteous but 'Lucifer' sought his glory because he had Wisdom and Power above the 'others' and became more powerful than they and this caused him to crave a share in the glory and worship of God. How do you know “angels do not change” and “spirit does not change”?
And I'm glad you agree that nothing God made, including Jesus was immune from the possibility of sinning.
mike
Mike,
If you need to complement me on such base aspect you surely do not know me… I won't even say “thanks”.
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ Aug. 08 2010,09:06) dude you already lost this point. Its obvously talking about Satan.
And it says his ways are perfect.
Ezequiel 28:15 Perfecto eras en todos tus caminos desde el día que fuiste criado, hasta que se halló en ti maldad.
Mike im starting to see everything you believe is basd on the netbible,
you need start reading the orginal greek or start reading the kjv, because your so lost in that net.bible. or whatever translation ur reading.
Hi Dennison,I'm not even sure what this post means. Have you got any proof that anything I've quoted from NETBible is incorrect information?
Their interpretation might not be yours, or even mine, but after all, they are INTERPRETATIONS. None of us were actually there, were we?
And I would love for you or JA to show me the scriptural proof that this lament is about Satan. Like I said, I have never even looked into it before today, so if you have something besides your opinion to say it's about Satan, hit me with it.
Btw, the KJV is not only hard for me to understand, because I don't talk like that, but it is also littered with trinity bias. They have corrected some of those mistakes in the NKJV, but not all. Besides, I use MANY different translations, including the KJV, and I also look up the Greek and Hebrew words in dictionaries and lexicons. In fact, why don't YOU go look up what the word rendered as “perfect” in A FEW TRANSLATIONS really meant in the Hebrew language?
Thanks for that mean spirited post though.
mike
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