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Quote (JustAskin @ June 14 2010,18:45) All,
Jesus was 'firstborn of God in the Flesh' means that he has the Holy Spirit without Measure, a 'Son of God'Adam was 'The Firstborn in the Flesh Son of God'
Jesus was begotten/born of man in the flesh, was anointed at the river Jordan with the Full Measure of the Holy Spirit, baptised 'with the Holy Spirit' as 'Son of God'
When Jesus was baptised at the river Jordan, was it then that God also said, 'You are my Son, Today I have beotten you'?
How does that tie into Fractal Scriptures? Where is there a related passage that reflects this great event?
When was it that God said to David 'You are my Son, Today I have begotten you' (Psalms 2). Was it when David was 'born/came into being'?(…Rushing out, more later…!)
JA………The scriptures you are relating to was a Prophet scripture and did not take place until Jesus it was fulfilled at the Jordan River when Jesus the son of Man became an adopted Son of GOD. Is the way i understand this.Peace and love to you and yours………………..gene
Quote (t8 @ June 14 2010,13:21) Is it like saying, the President of the USA was born in Honolulu, even though he wasn't the president yet.
Hi t8,No, it is more like Obama being in Honolulu 3 years BEFORE he became the President saying, “The American people gladly GAVE me their support as President of the United States.”
mike
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 14 2010,14:33) Mike ………. I thought, I did answer that question , I do believe Jesus (IS) a Son of Man as all Mankind is also. And i believe He became Son of GOD at the Jordan when He receives the HOLY SPIRIT (IN) to Him, Just as we also do. Except He had the (fullness) of the Spirit in Him because GOD gave him the Spirit without measure we are told. WE have the earnest of the Spirit we are told.
Hi Gene,Not “a” son of man. Do you believe he is “the” Son of Man?
mike
This is very enlightening:
I think that James 1:18 is speaking of a begetting by designation first of all mankind and it is not referring to Jesus at all.James 1:18
18 Of his own will begat (#616) he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.(#2938)
KJVNT:616
a)pokue/w
apokueo (ap-ok-oo-eh'-o); from NT:575 and the base of NT:2949; to breed forth, i.e. (by transf.) to generate (figuratively):KJV – beget, produce.
NT:2938
kti/sma
ktisma (ktis'-mah); from NT:2936; an original formation (concretely), i.e. product (created thing):KJV – creature.
Col 1:15
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.(#2937)
NASUNT:2937
kti/si$
ktisis (ktis'-is); from NT:2936; original formation (properly, the act; by implication, the thing, literally or figuratively):KJV – building, creation, creature, ordinance.
Heb 1:5
5 For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN (#1080)YOU”? And again, “I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?
NASUNT:1080
genna/w
gennao (ghen-nah'-o); from a variation of NT:1085; to procreate (properly, of the father, but by extension of the mother); figuratively, to regenerate:KJV – bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)What do you think?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2010,13:56) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 14 2010,14:33) Mike ………. I thought, I did answer that question , I do believe Jesus (IS) a Son of Man as all Mankind is also. And i believe He became Son of GOD at the Jordan when He receives the HOLY SPIRIT (IN) to Him, Just as we also do. Except He had the (fullness) of the Spirit in Him because GOD gave him the Spirit without measure we are told. WE have the earnest of the Spirit we are told.
Hi Gene,Not “a” son of man. Do you believe he is “the” Son of Man?
mike
Mike………I believe he was Both (a) son of man and (THE) son of man, whats the difference?. I know the definite article (the) is specific and (A) is general , but what does that have to do with anything. Both can apply to Jesus right?peace and love brother………………..gene
Point of definition, Gene,
“A”, is the 'indefinite article'. Can apply to many of the same sort.
There is only one 'The' but many 'a's.
“A son of man”… A flesh and blood human.
“The Son of man” … As we know that 'man' is many the this means 'A specific flesh and blood human', 'The flesh and blood human in question”
So yes, both, but contextual.
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 16 2010,02:33) Mike………I believe he was Both (a) son of man and (THE) son of man, whats the difference?. I know the definite article (the) is specific and (A) is general , but what does that have to do with anything. Both can apply to Jesus right? peace and love brother………………..gene
Hi Gene,I asked because Jesus told Nicodemus that the Son of Man (referring to himself, obviously) came FROM heaven. I wondered how that fits in with your understanding.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 15 2010,13:53) Quote (t8 @ June 14 2010,13:21) Is it like saying, the President of the USA was born in Honolulu, even though he wasn't the president yet.
Hi t8,No, it is more like Obama being in Honolulu 3 years BEFORE he became the President saying, “The American people gladly GAVE me their support as President of the United States.”
mike
Hey t8,I've got a better one. It's like me telling you, “My sister gave me one of her kidneys because mine failed”. But I told you this in past tense 3 years before it happened.
Do you think that's what Jesus did to Nicodemus? I assume that Nicodemus thought Jesus to be God's only begotten Son in the here and now, for he didn't ask any questions about that part. Word was quickly spreading that Jesus was the Son of God, so I think Nicodemus just assumed as I do that “begotten” is how he came to be God's Son. But before we look at the past, present and future tense in Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus, lets' see what leads up to it.
First, God calls Jesus his Son at his baptism (Matt 3:17)
Then John the Baptist testifies that Jesus is the Son of God (John 1:34)
Then Nathaniel recognizes Jesus as the Son of God in John 1,
49Then Nathanael declared, “Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel.”50Jesus said, “You believe because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that.” 51He then added, “I tell you the truth, you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man.”
Jesus equated his being the Son of God with being the Son of Man. In other words, he made it clear that they were two titles for the same person, him. Now let's move forward to Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus in John 3,
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man. 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.
16″For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's only begotten Son.
Verse 13 tells us that the Son of Man, who is the same person as the Son of God, came FROM heaven.
Verse 14 has Jesus speaking in future tense – must BE lifted up.
In verses 16 and 17, Jesus speaks in past tense – GAVE and SENT.
Verse 18 has Jesus speaking in present tense – whoever doesn't believe in God's only begotten Son stands condemned ALREADY, because he HAS not BELIEVED.
No one else in the NT is called the Son of Man or the only begotten Son of God. We know that both titles refer ONLY to Jesus. And Jesus plainly tells Nicodemus that the Son of Man came FROM heaven and that God GAVE and SENT His only begotten Son INTO THE WORLD. So is it really that far of a leap to assume that the only begotten Son of God also came FROM heaven INTO THE WORLD?
peace and love,
mikeMike………..I also believe Jesus came from Heaven (not) as a preexisting (Being) but through THE Plan OF GOD being fulfilled. God told The “serpent” that the (seed of the women) would bruise it Head. He did not say a already (EXISTING) seed of his would brute the head of the serpent . Cyrus was like wise a servant of GOD foreordained by GOD to come. So we could just as easily say He was from Heaven also right? After all God did create and send Him right?. Peter i believe said it best, Jesus was (FOREORDAINED) by God (But) was (MANIFESTED)or (brought into existence) IN OUR TIME. Jesus was certainly in the (PLAN) and (WILL) of GOD. Mike thats pretty much is the way i now see it brother, and nothing that i have read has altered that view. What i have found is that Most Preexistences force the text to a conclusion the text does not specifically say, And where there are text that specifically oppose those views they simply ignore, IMO.
peace and love to you and yours………………….gene
And Gene, when you are asked the question, 'what does Jesus mean by ''what if you see the son of man ascending to where he once was''?' what do you say to that?
Or 'Father, glorify me now, with the glory I had with you before the workd was?'
And also where Scriptures says that Jesus 'created all things and maintain all things'
Mike………..Jesus was indeed (before) because he was (predestined) to be who he was and this predestination was from above and was sent into the world when he was born through Mary and he did return where he originated to GOD the FATHER. As far as the Glory he had, that was a predestined glory, for the Son of Man who (learned obedience) and was empowered at the Jordan river to overcome His temptations of his flesh. Now if we are to believe Jesus Himself created and maintain all things , then where Do GOD the FATHER fit in that picture and what do you do with all the scriptures that say the opposite, Like in Isaiah where we are told , that GOD (ALONE) BY HIMSELF created the world and everything in it. There are many scriptures that say GOD is the ONLY source of all creation both on earth as well as in the heavens. Jesus himself said he could do (Nothing) of Himself. Why is it we see no apostle say Jesus Preexisted His Berth on earth then, Peter only relates to this by saying He was (foreordained) not preexistent, big difference. Would not Peter have known if Jesus was a Preexistent being of some kind?
Now with that said we haven't even got into the subject of (WHY) would GOD even begin to give us and example and that example not (really) be (exactly) like we are. It would be deceptive of GOD to portray Jesus as a son of Man when in fact he was not a son of man really, but a preexistent being of some kind , in which no mention of what he was or any past record of him written in scripture anywhere.
Ask yourself how could He (grow in grace and knowledge) if he already had that in his pas existence> Jesus is not the example of a Morphed Being of some kind into a human and then somehow portrayed a man in (disguise). We have scriptures that say Jesus was from Man kind, like where Mose said the Lord would raise up from among the Isrealite people themselves a Prophet Like Him. Moses was not a preexistent being ,to was He?. God whole plan was to Perfect the Human Race not some preexisting Angel or demigod of some kind and them pass him of as one of Us. That is completely against the Character of GOD. God the father took from man the man he chose to be the (first begotten) from man kind , he perfected Him and glorified Him and raised Him to eternal life , No where are we told Jesus had that eternal life until His was raised from the grave By GOD. Jesus never said he preexisted either, except in the plan and will of God, When he described his self in revelations he said He was alive and was (DEAD) and was (NOW) alive for evermore. Nothing more was added to that . Man has created another GOD image and Jesus is that GOD, they have created. This was not done by Jesus or the apostles or any true servant of GOD. Jesus was and is a MAN both Now and for evermore will be a SON of MAN. He is also son of GOD which he obtained at the Jordan river when he was baptized, we also can become son of GOD exactly as he is, through the impregnation of Holy Spirit (seed) of God. Mike that is just the way i see it. Some agree most do not brother.peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Gene,
Quote No where are we told Jesus had that eternal life until His was raised from the grave By GOD. Jesus never said he preexisted either Were you going to respond to the questions I set out for you on page 27 as it ties in with your question above.
Quote (JustAskin @ June 16 2010,17:19) And Gene, when you are asked the question, 'what does Jesus mean by ''what if you see the son of man ascending to where he once was''?' what do you say to that? Or 'Father, glorify me now, with the glory I had with you before the workd was?'
And also where Scriptures says that Jesus 'created all things and maintain all things'
Hi JA,Not to mention,
John 8:23
So he went on to say to them: “YOU are from the realms below; I am from the realms above. YOU are from this world; I am not from this world.Micah 5:2
“And you, O Beth′le‧hem Eph′ra‧thah, the one too little to get to be among the thousands of Judah, from you there will come out to me the one who is to become ruler in Israel, whose origin is from early times, from the days of time indefinite.John 6:38
because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.From John 1:
1 In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in [the] beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.
The (already existing) Word BECAME FLESH in the form of who we know as Jesus Christ. God didn't create a new being in the form of Jesus. The Word, who was in the beginning with God BECAME flesh in the form of Jesus.
Seems pretty clear to me, Gene.
peace and love,
mikeHi Gene,
You said:
Quote Like in Isaiah where we are told , that GOD (ALONE) BY HIMSELF created the world and everything in it. There are many scriptures that say GOD is the ONLY source of all creation both on earth as well as in the heavens. I agree. God is the sole Creator of everything. But he did that THROUGH Jesus. Jesus could not have created anything without the Father, therefore the Father gets top billing. But if the power Jesus used to help in creation came FROM his Father, then in actuality, the Father is the ONLY One who created.
You said:
Quote Why is it we see no apostle say Jesus Preexisted His Berth on earth then, Read the John scriptures above.
You said:
Quote No where are we told Jesus had that eternal life until His was raised from the grave By GOD. He didn't. He died, Gene. Paul says, “For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again…”
You said:
Quote Jesus never said he preexisted either, Again, read the above scriptures.
peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
Anyone blessed with the Spirit of Christ and begotten from the dead cannot die again, including JesusQuote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2010,13:13) Hi MB,
Anyone blessed with the Spirit of Christ and begotten from the dead cannot die again, including Jesus
Hi Nick,Scriptures?
Mike
Hi MB,
This is our hope.That like Jesus we receive of the LIVING Spirit now
and when we sleep in Christ we can be raised by that Spirit to eternal life.Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 17 2010,13:40) Hi MB,
This is our hope.That like Jesus we receive of the LIVING Spirit now
and when we sleep in Christ we can be raised by that Spirit to eternal life.
Hi Nick,Okay, thanks.
Or maybe that we never sleep at all!mike
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