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Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,02:53) Quote OK kenrch,
If you are so sure of what God did and that He made Adam perfect then show me the scripture that says so. You will find there are none so surely you realy should not make doctrinal statements about what is not revealed.Deut 32:4:
“The Rock, perfect is his activity.” Heb., hats·Tsur´ ta·mim´ po·`oloh´; LXX, “God, true are his works”; Sy, “For without blemish (spotless) are his works”; Vg, “God’s works are perfect.”Since creating Adam is a part of his activity, and since his activity is perfect, or without blemish are his works, then Adam was created perfect.
Are there any scriptures that say God makes mistakes?
Nick, are you the judge of what is right and wrong, perfect and imperfect?
Or is God?
Hi david,
You need to continue this argument with God because it is His words you want to deny.I think we have gotten somewhat off topic with this: Was Adam perfect question.
Everything Jehovah does is perfect. Jehovah is without flaw. His works are without flaw.
We, imperfect humans cannot judge what is or is not perfect as Jehovah is the standard of perfection.
Nick's arguement that the words “very good” were used has been proved to be no argument at all by Jesus' words.
Let's move on.
Quote Hi david,
You need to continue this argument with God because it is His words you want to deny.
Nick, your argument has been reduced to nothing.
To say that you can't call something that is perfect “very good” is absurd. Something perfect can certainly be called very good. Or was Jesus wrong? Or is Jehovah not perfect?
Please, let's move on.Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,03:06) I think we have gotten somewhat off topic with this: Was Adam perfect question. Everything Jehovah does is perfect. Jehovah is without flaw. His works are without flaw.
We, imperfect humans cannot judge what is or is not perfect as Jehovah is the standard of perfection.
Nick's arguement that the words “very good” were used has been proved to be no argument at all by Jesus' words.
Let's move on.
Hi david,
As soon as you have sorted out your argument with God I would welcome moving on.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 19 2005,21:11) Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,03:06) I think we have gotten somewhat off topic with this: Was Adam perfect question. Everything Jehovah does is perfect. Jehovah is without flaw. His works are without flaw.
We, imperfect humans cannot judge what is or is not perfect as Jehovah is the standard of perfection.
Nick's arguement that the words “very good” were used has been proved to be no argument at all by Jesus' words.
Let's move on.
Hi david,
As soon as you have sorted out your argument with God I would welcome moving on.
Nick,
How could you have a personnel relationship the LORD and say that he is not perfect? That answers my questions. What father among you would give his son a stone when he ask for bread. Then how much MORE will your heavenly Father give you the Holy Spirit if you ask him.Good night Nick. You and David can go on and argue some more.
Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,03:09) Quote Hi david,
You need to continue this argument with God because it is His words you want to deny.
Nick, your argument has been reduced to nothing.
To say that you can't call something that is perfect “very good” is absurd. Something perfect can certainly be called very good. Or was Jesus wrong? Or is Jehovah not perfect?
Please, let's move on.
Hi david,
The importance of the issue is what is the correct use of the Word of God.
If we are to try to build a proper understanding of the message of God to man, then every brick laid must be checked for true meaning because otherwise it may be the flaw that causes that building to collapse.For example if someone chose to teach that God sent an angel or archangel, rather than His only begotten Son, or if Jesus in fact is taught to be an angel called Michael everything changes and truth fast disappears from doctrine.
If it is fine to demand that trinity be proved from scripture before it is taught then the same principle must also surely be applied to any other doctrinal stance if consistency is a virtue.
So we must first search scripture to see if God teaches on the issue that we are expounding. If He does we must be faithful to His teaching. If He does not or it is unclear and there are few supporting verses then reason and logic can start to play a part as well.
Of course if we can prove bad translation or bias or added verses that changes the whole picture.
So Genesis says God's creation is “very good” we should not change that to “perfect” That is altering scripture and we must not do that.
Of course we would like to know the NWT translation of the verse too in case this is the source of your confusion.
Nick, your argument has been reduced to nothing.
To say that you can't call something that is perfect “very good” is absurd. Something perfect can certainly be called very good. Or was Jesus wrong? Or is Jehovah not perfect?
You have yet to answer these questions Nick. But of course you can't.You keep saying my argument is with God. Yet it is I that keeps saying God is perfect and you who keeps implying He isn't. It is you who have a problem with God. I believe he is perfect, and that all His activity is perfect, as the scripture says.
Nick, I have no argument with God.
I agree that everything He made was “very good.”
But I also agree with the scripture that says all His activity is perfect.
And I also agree with and understand Jesus' statement about his perfect heavenly Father being called “good.”I agree with all these things.
You only agree with the first, and as usual, reject the rest of the Bible to hold on to your one scripture which you have formed an opinion about without considering what the rest of the Bible says.Quote Of course we would like to know the NWT translation of the verse too in case this is the source of your confusion.
It says: “very good,” as I have repeatedly stated.
And while it is described as this, the question is: Is perfection good? Yes. How good? How many very's do you, Nick, need in front of the word “good” for it to make sense?
What if it said: “very very very very very good”? Would that help?Nick, in the end, here is why you are absolutely wrong. Jesus' words prove you are wrong. The Father is perfect. Yet, Jesus used the word “good” with relation to Him. Your whole argument just fell apart. Something that is perfect can of course also be good.
It is only the words “very good” that were used. Does that mean that things weren't beautiful, great, amazing, peaceful, calm, etc, etc? No.
You apparently have an unbiblical rating system in your mind. 'Ok, good, very good, great, perfect.' But 'pefect' is different from the others. Something can be “very good” or even “good” and at the same time perfect, as Jesus' words show.
Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,03:41) Nick, your argument has been reduced to nothing.
To say that you can't call something that is perfect “very good” is absurd. Something perfect can certainly be called very good. Or was Jesus wrong? Or is Jehovah not perfect?
You have yet to answer these questions Nick. But of course you can't.You keep saying my argument is with God. Yet it is I that keeps saying God is perfect and you who keeps implying He isn't. It is you who have a problem with God. I believe he is perfect, and that all His activity is perfect, as the scripture says.
Nick, I have no argument with God.
I agree that everything He made was “very good.”
But I also agree with the scripture that says all His activity is perfect.
And I also agree with and understand Jesus' statement about his perfect heavenly Father being called “good.”I agree with all these things.
You only agree with the first, and as usual, reject the rest of the Bible to hold on to your one scripture which you have formed an opinion about without considering what the rest of the Bible says.
Hi david,
You can say what you like but these are biblical forums where what you say is measured against scripture. Your claims just do not measure up .Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,02:58) This reasoning is extremely flawed. So I guess according to your reasoning,
Your reasoning is false Nick.
Hi david,
My reading tells me the JW's rely heavily on REASON for their doctrine. Your words weem to bear this outQuote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,02:53) Quote OK kenrch,
If you are so sure of what God did and that He made Adam perfect then show me the scripture that says so. You will find there are none so surely you realy should not make doctrinal statements about what is not revealed.Deut 32:4:
“The Rock, perfect is his activity.” Heb., hats·Tsur´ ta·mim´ po·`oloh´; LXX, “God, true are his works”; Sy, “For without blemish (spotless) are his works”; Vg, “God’s works are perfect.”Since creating Adam is a part of his activity, and since his activity is perfect, or without blemish are his works, then Adam was created perfect.
Are there any scriptures that say God makes mistakes?
Nick, are you the judge of what is right and wrong, perfect and imperfect?
Or is God?
Hi david,
I search for biblical truth in scripture. Do you find others sources equally helpful?Quote (david @ Dec. 18 2005,05:30) Quote “The Rock, perfect is his activity,”
Jehovah is unquestionably perfect. Yet when someone called Jesus “good,” didn't Jesus say no one is good except his Father? Yes, Jehovah, who's perfect, is also described as good.
What does this Biblical fact tell us?
Something being called good does not mean it isn't perfect.
Something can be called good or very good and still be perfect.
Jehovah certain could be described as good, and he was also perfect.Quote This is a biblical forum and while you are entitled to express whatever opinions you may have or derivations from scripture you hold dear the aim here is to learn from what is written. I quote God and you disagree with what He says and then attack me. What gives?
Where did I disagree with what God says?
This is what you keep quoting in your belief that Adam wasn't perfect. You claim God only said that all he made was “very good.”
Gen 1.31
” God saw all that He had made and behold it was very good”I too am pointing out a scripture. Jehovah is perfect. His activity is perfect. This is what the Bible says. From the Bible we also learn that something can be called “good” and at the same time be absolutely perfect, as Jehovah is perfect. You cannot argue that fact. Yet, Jesus said that only one could be called good, His Father.
If it sounded like I was attacking you, it is because you are accusing Jehovah of creating something flawed, of making a mistake in his creation. This goes against the scritpure I provided.
It also goes against logic. You are not the judge of what is perfect. Jehovah is. Therefore, anything Jehovah makes is perfect. YOU are not in a position to question it. However anything Jehovah creates turns out, it must be perfect. If we do not see it as perfect, then it must be our perception that is wrong.david.
Hi david,
we do not approach scripture and interpret it according to reason such as you have done here. Instead we discover all God wishes to tell us, including about Himself, by study of scripture. We compare verse with verse and take into account culture and context.
We know that heaven and earth will pass away but the Word of God stands forever. We know the Word is pure. We Know not a jot or tittle can be displaced.
Human reasoning works from the other end. It takes the derivations and speculations, teachings and traditions of men and appiles them to the Word. this is evil.So a theologian might say
” God is perfect
All creation thus must be perfect”.Instead James says in Ch 1.16f
” Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Every GOOD thing given
AND
every PERFECT gift
is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow”Funny the association with deception!
Quote Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,02:58)
This reasoning is extremely flawed…..So I guess according to your reasoning,….Your reasoning is false Nick.Hi david,
My reading tells me the JW's rely heavily on REASON for their doctrine. Your words weem to bear this outDoes the scripture not say that 'Paul reasoned with them from the scriptures'?
Nick, your whole “reason” for believing the “very good” cannot also mean perfect is false reasoning based on what Jesus said. I am attempting to reason with you from the scriptures, from what Jesus said. The reason for you believing that has been shown to be false based solely on Jesus' words.
Nick, some people just “feel” that God is a trinity or they “feel” that God is in their hearts, yet don't know what the Bible actually says. So reasoning from God's Word is important, isn't it?So, you've been doing some “reading” on JW's? Keep in mind that 98% of everything on the internet with regard to JW's is wrong. Nick, if you were to go to our official website http://www.watchtower.org, you may be able to read about our beliefs as we actually believe them. You will get accurate information on what we believe.
Quote Quote (david @ Dec. 19 2005,02:53)
Quote
OK kenrch,
If you are so sure of what God did and that He made Adam perfect then show me the scripture that says so. You will find there are none so surely you realy should not make doctrinal statements about what is not revealed.Deut 32:4:
“The Rock, perfect is his activity.” Heb., hats·Tsur´ ta·mim´ po·`oloh´; LXX, “God, true are his works”; Sy, “For without blemish (spotless) are his works”; Vg, “God’s works are perfect.”Since creating Adam is a part of his activity, and since his activity is perfect, or without blemish are his works, then Adam was created perfect.
Are there any scriptures that say God makes mistakes?
Nick, are you the judge of what is right and wrong, perfect and imperfect?
Or is God?Hi david,
I search for biblical truth in scripture. Do you find others sources equally helpful?
No. Your lack of an actual responce to what I said shows that you are unwilling to consider what the Bible says but only willing to stick to your unbiblical beliefs despite clear evidence to the contrary.Quote Hi david,
we do not approach scripture and interpret it according to reason such as you have done here. Instead we discover all God wishes to tell us, including about Himself, by study of scripture. We compare verse with verse and take into account culture and context.
We know that heaven and earth will pass away but the Word of God stands forever. We know the Word is pure. We Know not a jot or tittle can be displaced.
Human reasoning works from the other end. It takes the derivations and speculations, teachings and traditions of men and appiles them to the Word. this is evil.So a theologian might say
” God is perfect
All creation thus must be perfect”.Instead James says in Ch 1.16f
” Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.
Every GOOD thing given
AND
every PERFECT gift
is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow”Funny the association with deception!
Nick, certainly something perfect can be described as good, as Jesus has shown and of which you have ignored.
But this certainly doesn't mean every good thing is perfect and I have never said this.Nick, your belief is this: The words “very good” were used, and not the word “perfect,” therefore Jehovah's creation, Adam wasn't perfect.
Yet, Jesus used the word “good” with reference to Jehovah and Jehovah is perfect, so the reasoning behind your false belief falls apart rather quickly.
It is sad that you still keep clinging to this belief despite being shown by Jesus' words that it is false.
I am not trying to replace the words “very good.” But clearly, from Jesus' words, something that is perfect can be described as “good.” Perhaps Jesus didn't understand what you do. Are you more knowledgeable that Jesus?Hi,
Birth is a protracted process and I am sure rebirth also is not usually instant as Paul alluded to in Gal 3.19-20. First there is conception and then the embryo state and finally birth. The seed must find good soil [Mk 4. 3f]and be watered [Heb 6.7f]to develop into a useful plant[Mk 4.26-29]. Since we cannot see the kingdom until the way of obedience has been followed [Jn 3]and brought to fruition we can understand why Paul waited for some time before he began to fully partake in his teaching ministry[Gal 1.17f].Quote (david @ Dec. 14 2005,07:30) Quote You do agree that their will be humans on the new earth don't you?
Until very recently, I believed Jehovah's Witnesses were about the only ones that did believe this. Yes, I believe it. But since the purpose of being born of spirit is so that those who 'enter the kingdom' can be spirit creatures in heaven, there is really no need for those who will reside on the earth to be born again. Yes, we are imperfect now. That will change. I'm not saying you can't have God's spirit. I'm saying what John 3:5 says.
Hi david,
Men becoming spirit creatures in heaven?
Only the Son of Man is known to be in heaven.
Is this more JW dogma?Hi david,
You teach
“Only persons who have been “born again,” thus becoming God’s sons, can share in the heavenly Kingdom
John 1:12, 13: “As many as did receive him [Jesus Christ], to them he gave authority to become God’s children, because they were exercising faith in his name; and they were born, not from blood or from a fleshly will or from man’s will, but from God.” (“As many as did receive him” does not mean all humans who have put faith in Christ. Notice who is being referred to, as indicated by verse 11 [“his own people,” the Jews].”
Verse 11 does not limit the following verses to the jews.Quote For david.
Thankyou for finding this Nick. I knew I discussed this somewhere, but had no idea I made a thread about it.dave
Quote Hi david,
Men becoming spirit creatures in heaven?
Only the Son of Man is known to be in heaven.
Is this more JW dogma?Jesus has lived in heaven for eons. He came to the earth for a very very limited amount of time for a very specific purpose. He is back in heaven now.
1 THESSALONIANS 4:17
“Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with [the] Lord.”Notice the last few words.
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