Bodhitharta vs t8

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,09:27)

1 John 2:22 22 Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Muslims do not deny that Jesus is The Christ so it does not apply. But just to explain it clearly to you, look:

That is true, but the one who denies that he is the Christ denies the son. But you openly deny the son, so what is the difference?

It is the denial of the son that I am concerned with.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,09:27)

I have to ask you have the works of Satan ceased? If it hasn't then you are asking someone to believe that 2000 years didn't make a dent on satanic activity if that was the plan of God.

It is easy to understand. God sent his son into the world that we MIGHT be saved. It is up to us now. We can be saved by the grace of God through the shedding of our messiahs blood for us.

Of course people still choose to sin, that is up to them. Notice that I specifically said that it was the beginning of the end for Satan.

John 16:11
and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

It doesn't say that he has been sentenced or that he is now under the sentence. No, he is still doing his work, so that he can reap his own. It is part of the separation of the wheat and the tares. To understand this fully, read Jesus parable on the wheat and tares.

The process is in operation and one day that process will end and judgement for all will begin.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,09:27)

As far as God sending another, Don't you believe He sent Paul?

As far as God sending others, he has sent many. The prophets, apostles, and servants in the form of men and angel.

But God never sent another messiah and he has only one begotten who is that messiah.

Jesus said “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.”

Paul, Peter, Isaiah, Ezekial, David, Abraham, or Moses never claimed to be the way the truth and the life. None of them were the exclusive way. Rather they were servants that showed the way given the amount of revelation given to them.

I assume that you believe that Jesus is no different to Moses or Abraham, in that he is a servant like them.

But Jesus is much more than a servant. He is the son. Do not pass over Jesus words in the following parable.

Matthew 21:33-40
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.

38″But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40″Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

As you can see, God sent his servants and then he sent his son. By reason of your belief, you must reject what this parable of Jesus is saying.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,10:04)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 07 2010,09:27) As far as God sending another, Don't you believe He sent Paul? As far as God sending others, he has sent many. The prophets, apostles, and servants in the form of men and angel. But God never sent another messiah and he has only one begotten who is that messiah. Jesus said “I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.” Paul, Peter, Isaiah, Ezekial, David, Abraham, or Moses never claimed to be the way the truth and the life. None of them were the exclusive way. Rather they were servants that showed the way given the amount of revelation given to them. I assume that you believe that Jesus is no different to Moses or Abraham, in that he is a servant like them. But Jesus is much more than a servant. He is the son. Do not pass over Jesus words in the following parable. Matthew 21:33-40 33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit. 35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said. 38″But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him. 40″Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?” As you can see, God sent his servants and then he sent his son. By reason of your belief, you must reject what this parable of Jesus is saying.

Not at all,

You still haven't told me which verse is wrong?

And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:
Exodus 4:21-23

If Israel is The FirstBorn of Godhow could Jesus be The Only Begotten son of God

Fodr instance it was written that Isaac was the Only son of Isaac when we know that Isaac was not the first or only son of Abraham.

So tell me which is correct? Is Israel the firstborn son of God, yes or No?

[Proclaimer]

I explained this to you before.

There are many firstborns, even I have one.

But there is only one first born of all creation. There is only one who came from God and was not created.

Jesus wasn't created like all else. A body was prepared for him and God sent him into the world after he sent his servants.

Jesus existed in the form of God and emptied himself and came here. You underestimate the importance of who God sent. He could not have sent more than his son. He gave us the ultimate.

You deny that Jesus is the son of God, the firstborn of all creation, don't you?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,10:33)

I explained this to you before. There are many firstborns, even I have one. But there is only one first born of all creation. There is only one who came from God and was not created. Jesus wasn't created like all else. A body was prepared for him and God sent him into the world after he sent his servants. Jesus existed in the form of God and emptied himself and came here. You underestimate the importance of who God sent. He could not have sent more than his son. He gave us the ultimate. You deny that Jesus is the son of God, the firstborn of all creation, don't you?

You did not answer my question T8

Is ISRAEL the FIRSTBORN SON of GOD?

[Proclaimer]

I have answered it before. Jesus said ye are gods, ye are sons of the Most High God. He said that to those whom God had a covenant with. Angels are even called the sons of God.

Israel is, and so are others referred to as the son or sons of God.

But saying that Jesus is the son of God in the same way as others is misleading. Jesus is the prototype son of God. If we are to be sons, then we will be like him who hold first place in all things under God.

He was the first of many. But still the first. The prototype and the head.

This is why I say that you deny his son-ship. You categorize him as other sons and this is the thrust of your argument and a clever way to deny that he is the son of the living God, the firstborn of all creation, the prototype son in which all sons will conform to his image.

God > Christ > Man >

This is the order.

Not God > Prophets > Man

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,11:13)

I have answered it before. Jesus said ye are gods, ye are sons of the Most High God. He said that to those whom God had a covenant with. Angels are even called the sons of God. Israel is, and so are others referred to as the son or sons of God. But saying that Jesus is the son of God in the same way as others is misleading. Jesus is the prototype son of God. If we are to be sons, then we will be like him who hold first place in all things under God. He was the first of many. But still the first. The prototype and the head. This is why I say that you deny his son-ship. You categorize him as other sons and this is the thrust of your argument and a clever way to deny that he is the son of the living God, the firstborn of all creation, the prototype son in which all sons will conform to his image. God > Christ > Man > This is the order. Not God > Prophets > Man

T8

Your determination is admirable but you can't seem to answer this question plainly

Is ISRAEL the FIRSTBORN SON of GOD?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,11:13)

Israel is, and so are others referred to as the son or sons of God.

That is my answer. Read my previous post.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,09:14)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,11:13) Israel is, and so are others referred to as the son or sons of God. That is my answer. Read my previous post.

You can't answer the question

We are not talking about “sons” but it says Israel is The FIRSTBORN SON of GOD is this true?

and If so Is Jesus not the FIRSTBORN SON of GOD

BOTH can't be true, can it?

[Proclaimer]

Hi BD.

I haven't forgotten this one.
I will get around to it.
I have some time off over the next month, so should be able to spend more time here.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 21 2010,00:03)

Hi BD. I haven't forgotten this one. I will get around to it. I have some time off over the next month, so should be able to spend more time here.

I appreciate your resonse, God bless you!

God Willing talk with you soon

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 08 2010,09:28)

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,09:14) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,11:13) Israel is, and so are others referred to as the son or sons of God. That is my answer. Read my previous post. You can't answer the question We are not talking about “sons” but it says Israel is The FIRSTBORN SON of GOD is this true? and If so Is Jesus not the FIRSTBORN SON of GOD BOTH can't be true, can it?

Israel is the son of God in relation to being a nation of people that God chose to reveal himself through.

Jesus is not a nation but the only son (person) of the living God.
The only one or the prototype son, of which those that belong to him are being conformed to his image, so that they will be like him.

Jesus and Israel are not each a person that would lead to any conflict here.

God has many sons both metaphorically speaking and literally speaking. But even logic dictates that there was one who was the first.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Jan. 30 2010,22:58)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Jan. 08 2010,09:28) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 08 2010,09:14) Quote (t8 @ Jan. 07 2010,11:13) Israel is, and so are others referred to as the son or sons of God. That is my answer. Read my previous post. You can't answer the question We are not talking about “sons” but it says Israel is The FIRSTBORN SON of GOD is this true? and If so Is Jesus not the FIRSTBORN SON of GOD BOTH can't be true, can it? Israel is the son of God in relation to being a nation of people that God chose to reveal himself through. Jesus is not a nation but the only son (person) of the living God. The only one or the prototype son, of which those that belong to him are being conformed to his image, so that they will be like him. Jesus and Israel are not each a person that would lead to any conflict here. God has many sons both metaphorically speaking and literally speaking. But even logic dictates that there was one who was the first.

The Bible says that Israel is the Firstborn son of God, now keep in mind that Israel is also a person and all Israelites are sons of Israel.

God says that Israel is His firstborn it does not say nor are we to assume it is a metaphor and if it is a metaphor then my point is proved.

You can't simply say that Jesus is the prototype as the scripture says that in the beginning God made man in his image, in the image of God made He, male and female.

So obviously Adam and Eve were the prototype of all humanity. Now, granted Jesus is the fulfillment of that prototype being completed but that is not what you are saying is it?

So God says that Israel is His Firstborn Son, in what way? The Bible also says that Adam was the Son of God and he was the first created Human so in what way did it pertain to Adam? The angels are called the sons of God, so in what way did it pertain to the angels?

I keep telling you “Son” is simply a word of affection towards the anointed but if you disbelieve me then you should be able to explain to me how and why I am wrong.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 02 2010,08:49)

You can't simply say that Jesus is the prototype as the scripture says that in the beginning God made man in his image, in the image of God made He, male and female.

Bod, there are many firstborns and many sons of God. Even I have a firstborn son. It is said of Jesus however, that he is the son of God and the firstborn or prototype over/of all creation. My son is not the firstborn over/of all creation. Neither are others who are called firstborn. No other first born is the prototype of all creation.

The phrase “only begotten” translates the Greek word “monogenes”. This word is translated into English as “only,” “one and only,” and “only begotten.” This is significant in understanding what type of son of God he is.

Following on, son(s) of God is used to refer to the following in the bible:

[bodhitharta]

Quote (t8 @ Feb. 02 2010,17:50)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 02 2010,08:49) You can't simply say that Jesus is the prototype as the scripture says that in the beginning God made man in his image, in the image of God made He, male and female. Bod, there are many firstborns and many sons of God. Even I have a firstborn son. It is said of Jesus however, that he is the son of God and the firstborn or prototype over/of all creation. My son is not the firstborn over/of all creation. Neither are others who are called firstborn. No other first born is the prototype of all creation. The phrase “only begotten” translates the Greek word “monogenes”. This word is translated into English as “only,” “one and only,” and “only begotten.” This is significant in understanding what type of son of God he is. Following on, son(s) of God is used to refer to the following in the bible: Benei Elohim, often translated as “sons of God”, is seen by some to describe angels. Human judge or ruler (Psalm 82:6, “children of the Most High”; in many passages “gods” and “judges”. To the real king over Israel (II Samuel 7:14) Israel as a people is called God's “son”. Ephraim as a tribe is referred to as God's first born. As you can see Bod, the title or statement “first born” and “son(s) of God” refer to many. But none of these sons of God are the the son of God and the first born of/over all creation, as well as lord. Now it needs to be understood that Jesus is not like others who are called first-born in the Old Testament. First off, you are dealing with a completely different language and therefore a different word(s). You also cannot say that Jesus is a first-born like my own son, or perhaps your one if you have one because the context is completely different. Our sons are firstborns to us, and not of all creation. So you cannot say that anyone but Jesus is the son of God and prototype of all creation and the one by whom we are being made into his image. No one else fits this description. We also know that there is one Spirit, but we also know there are many spirits. Angels are called spirits, there are evil spirits, and we have a spirit. But it is written that there is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4). It is not hard to see that this also is not a contradiction. You only need to see that some verses are referring to the supreme and others are not. e.g., Paul says that there are indeed many lords and there are many gods, but for us there is one God the Father. He is saying that the supreme God is the Father and that makes him the true God. So think of that same logic but use first-born instead. There are many first-borns, but for us, there is one first-born of all creation… If you are not willing to accept that Jesus is the monogene son of God, the first-born of all creation, then these following verses show how important it is. John 3:18 Jesus – He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 1 John 4:9 God sent his only begotten son into the world, that we might live through him. John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Why is it you force yourself to apply special status to the use of words with Jesus?

There are other kings that were also called King of Kings but of Jesus you will give that special status as well.

It's called special pleading

Fallacy: Special Pleading

——————————————————————————–

Description of Special Pleading
Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption. This sort of “reasoning” has the following form:

Person A accepts standard(s) S and applies them to others in circumtance(s) C.
Person A is in circumstance(s) C.
Therefore A is exempt from S.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html

Now if you say Jesus was the firstborn son then he certainly couldn't be the only begotten, right?

What I am most astonished is you seem to want to match Jesus to the level of God.

[Stu]

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 02 2010,19:45)

Description of Special Pleading Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption. This sort of “reasoning” has the following form: Person A accepts standard(s) S and applies them to others in circumtance(s) C. Person A is in circumstance(s) C. Therefore A is exempt from S. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html Now if you say Jesus was the firstborn son then he certainly couldn't be the only begotten, right? What I am most astonished is you seem to want to match Jesus to the level of God.

I see!

So you mean like when a creationist criticises science for not being able to give a mechanism for abiogenesis, while the creationist himself cannot giving a mechanism for divine creation??

Stuart

[Stu]

Sorry to interrupt. I got a bit excited at BD quoting philosophy.

Carry on…

Stuart

[Proclaimer]

It's called scripture. Jesus is certainly special because he is the messiah and the son of God. God made all things through him and for him as it is written. He is the head and has pre-eminence. He is the image of the invisible God. No one else fits that bill.

God is invisible and Jesus is the full expression of God in bodily form. Whereas everyone else reflects in part.

So yes he is special BD.

Under God's authority there has to be someone who is higher than all with the exception of God, unless God decided to exalt a number of persons to the same highest level. In Egypt the highest was Joseph with the exception of Pharaoh himself.

Scripture tells us that the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. I am afraid that no other prophet gets a mention in all this because a true prophet of God is a servant and Jesus is the son.

Listen to the parable of the tenants.

Matthew 21:33-40
33″Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and went away on a journey. 34When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35″The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37Last of all, he sent his son to them. 'They will respect my son,' he said.

38″But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, 'This is the heir. Come, let's kill him and take his inheritance.' 39So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40″Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”

Why is Jesus different to all the other prophets? Because he is not a servant of the Father but the son.

This is what you seem to deny, yet they are Jesus own words. And yes that makes Jesus special over all the other prophets. Of course it is up to you and you alone whether you decide to believe God's testimony.

1 John 5:9
We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.

1 John 5:10
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

1 John 5:11
And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Stu @ Feb. 02 2010,20:06)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Feb. 02 2010,19:45) Description of Special Pleading Special Pleading is a fallacy in which a person applies standards, principles, rules, etc. to others while taking herself (or those she has a special interest in) to be exempt, without providing adequate justification for the exemption. This sort of “reasoning” has the following form: Person A accepts standard(s) S and applies them to others in circumtance(s) C. Person A is in circumstance(s) C. Therefore A is exempt from S. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/special-pleading.html Now if you say Jesus was the firstborn son then he certainly couldn't be the only begotten, right? What I am most astonished is you seem to want to match Jesus to the level of God. I see! So you mean like when a creationist criticises science for not being able to give a mechanism for abiogenesis, while the creationist himself cannot giving a mechanism for divine creation?? Stuart

We have the mechanism for divine creation God created the form and gave it function just like a computer program is made an Application and is directed to Execute upon the run command.

How exactly do you think a computer program works?

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