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Are beatings and killings for honour, so common in the islamic world, legitimate expressions of islamic faith?
Egyptian Muslim Woman, Christian Man Beaten in “Honor Violence”
Stuart
Not that common in the West, is it! Do the imams protest that honour killings are unislamic activities?
Man kills daughter, her friend for honour
Stuart
Does islam require religious tolerance? Perhaps these islamists were not real muslims.
Church screening of 'Jesus' film attacked in Pakistan
Stuart
Is it normal practice in islam to radicalise young men then drive them to distraction…or terrorism?
Maybe he was not a real muslim.
Stuart
1000 Indonesians demonstrating violence towards christians, and in the process proving that they are not real muslims:
Muslims attack and set fire to a house of prayers
Stuart
The top 10 FBI cases of 2009:
…a rundown of some of the Bureau's most significant cases.
Was there a single one that did not feature the Religion of Peace? Not that I could find.
Of course I guess none of them were real muslims.
Stuart
Muslims may only visit violence on others in defense of faith and community, or just community, is that right?
Clearly not when they are invading new land and attempting to install their version of sharia law:
Al-Shabaab Seize Islands Near Kenya
These mujahideens are invading and effecting regime change. I guess that means they are not doing jihad properly, and may not even be real muslims.
Stuart
This is from a couple of years ago. Do we think it likely that the practice has ceased?
Police protect girls forced to convert to Islam
No real muslim would force conversions, right? Anyone should be free to come or go as they please.
Oh, apart from the requirement to slay apostates where you find them during war, and this sure must look like war to the young people being coerced by these bullies.
Stuart
I'd recommend you not read this one. It is shocking.
Of course the muslims committing the atrocities were not real muslims, obviously.
Stuart
STU,
Picking out news articles does not define what Islam is nor what the Quran teaches.
There are over a billion Muslims if the things you posted was the “norm” these things would be the “Norm”
For a man of science you are using seriously flawed methods to demonstrate your point.
This one single post destroys your entire argument.
This is exactly the kind of thing that ISLAM TEACHES because the traditional method of islamic teaching is NOT reading the koran, but the act of gathering around those with more knowledge and listening. If that is no longer a valid means of 'islamic teaching' then perhaps you can tell us when that changed, because
1. these violent people are certainly doing this in the name of allah
2. many of them are extremely knowledgeable
3. you can watch the videos on Youtube of imams teaching EXACTLY this stuff, including
4. those things TAUGHT as islamic in madrassahsSo I am afraid your answer that YOU cannot find it in the koran does not stop all of these being examples if muslims carrying out their religion.
Who are YOU to say they are wrong?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 04 2010,07:22) This is exactly the kind of thing that ISLAM TEACHES because the traditional method of islamic teaching is NOT reading the koran, but the act of gathering around those with more knowledge and listening. If that is no longer a valid means of 'islamic teaching' then perhaps you can tell us when that changed, because 1. these violent people are certainly doing this in the name of allah
2. many of them are extremely knowledgeable
3. you can watch the videos on Youtube of imams teaching EXACTLY this stuff, including
4. those things TAUGHT as islamic in madrassahsSo I am afraid your answer that YOU cannot find it in the koran does not stop all of these being examples if muslims carrying out their religion.
Who are YOU to say they are wrong?
Stuart
Of course they are wrong just as any other that misleadsjust like in science “piltdown” man
The Piltdown hoax is probably the most famous hoax in history. It has become so well known for two reasons: the attention it brought to the issue of evolution, and the length of time (over 40 years) that it took for anyone to discover it was a fraud.
http://listverse.com/2008/04/09/top-10-scientific-frauds-and-hoaxes/
Now even those who were scientist have caused vast damage with false racial science that gave justification of enslaving and murdering hundreds of millions
http://ministries.tliquest.net/theolog….sm.html
This also led to eugenics
So of course people can teach what they want for the means that they want to obtain but that in no way falsifies real objective science likewise the corrupt teachings of an individual does in no way reflect the noncorrupt source.
Once again your method is seriously flawed.
The irony with your example of Piltdown is that it was immediately recognised that if the Piltdown discoveries were real fossils then evolution by natural selection would have been disproved, and Darwin's theory was used by many to predict that indeed it would turn out that this discovery was NOT genuine. The problem was they did not have the techniques required to demonstrate the fraud until later. Piltdown is a demonstration that natural selection is a scientific theory that can be used to make predictions that turn out to be verified later. Is creationism able to make verifiable predictions? No, because it is not a scientific theory, it is a mythology.
I had a brief look at those other sites you linked. What is your point? That scientists get it wrong and other scientists demonstrate it? That is the whole point of science, propose something then attempt to disprove it.
Quote Now even those who were scientist have caused vast damage with false racial science that gave justification of enslaving and murdering hundreds of millions
Whatever opinions individuals have, any scientist can tell you what science is, and isn't. The point I have clearly demonstrated above is that there seems to be no agreement about what islam is. Those who make the biggest impact in telling others what islam is, don't seem to be in agreement with you. That does not mean they are right, but that is the perception in the West, and the whole problem with what you claim. I will repeat the question you are deflecting from again below.Regarding those other pages you linked to, can you be specific? I have been specific about the point(s) I have wanted to make from linked pages. Why can't you be that honest? Don't waste my time by linking to screeds of general apologist stuff in an attempt to smear. Make your specific point, or I think it is reasonable of me to ignore your link.
Stuart
Before I entertain your question about creativity, the asking of which would seem to be a desperate attempt on your part to deflect from a difficult question about whether these are real muslims who are slaughtering and maiming others in the name of allah, how about you answer this one:
Who are YOU to say they are wrong?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 04 2010,09:48) The irony with your example of Piltdown is that it was immediately recognised that if the Piltdown discoveries were real fossils then evolution by natural selection would have been disproved, and Darwin's theory was used by many to predict that indeed it would turn out that this discovery was NOT genuine. The problem was they did not have the techniques required to demonstrate the fraud until later. Piltdown is a demonstration that natural selection is a scientific theory that can be used to make predictions that turn out to be verified later. Is creationism able to make verifiable predictions? No, because it is not a scientific theory, it is a mythology. I had a brief look at those other sites you linked. What is your point? That scientists get it wrong and other scientists demonstrate it? That is the whole point of science, propose something then attempt to disprove it.
Quote Now even those who were scientist have caused vast damage with false racial science that gave justification of enslaving and murdering hundreds of millions
Whatever opinions individuals have, any scientist can tell you what science is, and isn't. The point I have clearly demonstrated above is that there seems to be no agreement about what islam is. Those who make the biggest impact in telling others what islam is, don't seem to be in agreement with you. That does not mean they are right, but that is the perception in the West, and the whole problem with what you claim. I will repeat the question you are deflecting from again below.Regarding those other pages you linked to, can you be specific? I have been specific about the point(s) I have wanted to make from linked pages. Why can't you be that honest? Don't waste my time by linking to screeds of general apologist stuff in an attempt to smear. Make your specific point, or I think it is reasonable of me to ignore your link.
Stuart
You tried to make a ridiculous point which was really a Non-sequitor and then you didn't expect for me to retaliate in the exact same manner?I keep telling you I have studied Logic and all manner of philosophy and science and unless you are extraordinarily well versed in these fields your attempts to obscure reality will be at best laughable.
You take Radicals and try to make them the norm so I took radicals and showed you that your defense would be the same as mine which proves my defense is perfectly acceptable to you when it concerns your beliefs.
This is why I said you are knee deep in hypocrisy.
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 04 2010,09:51) Before I entertain your question about creativity, the asking of which would seem to be a desperate attempt on your part to deflect from a difficult question about whether these are real muslims who are slaughtering and maiming others in the name of allah, how about you answer this one: Who are YOU to say they are wrong?
Stuart
And once again were these real scientist that created these hoaxes and made up lies about race and inferiority?Was Hitler wrong to say that the Jews should be anihilated? (I say he is, what do you say?) and if you say he is who are YOU to say that he is wrong?
Your getting pummeled here.
Now what about creativity?
Quote You tried to make a ridiculous point which was really a Non-sequitor and then you didn't expect for me to retaliate in the exact same manner? I keep telling you I have studied Logic and all manner of philosophy and science and unless you are extraordinarily well versed in these fields your attempts to obscure reality will be at best laughable.
I’m sorry to tell you that these are not the only things you appear to be well versed in. Would you like to demonstrate that I have provided you with a non-sequitur (the spelling and meaning of which you might have known were you were well-studied in philosophy)? How is this about retaliation? Is that islam in action?Quote You take Radicals and try to make them the norm so I took radicals and showed you that your defense would be the same as mine which proves my defense is perfectly acceptable to you when it concerns your beliefs. This is why I said you are knee deep in hypocrisy. And once again were these real scientist that created these hoaxes and made up lies about race and inferiority?
Maybe they were. Can you name an example? Was it science they were doing when they voiced those opinions? No, and every scientist can tell you that. Is it islam when an islamist gets radicalised at a madrassah then blows up a market square? They sure weren’t teaching buddhism, were they! It is done by them in the name of allah, and is most certainly thought by them to be whereas even the few examples there might be of nutcase scientists who support eugenics will tell you that it does not constitute their scientific work. That is because eugenics, social darwinism and all associated crackpot ideas are philosophical.Do you remember what you said science was earlier? Now you seem to be contradicting yourself. Is science ‘knowledge’? Is it, as I suggested, also the method by which that knowledge is gained? What else would you like to include in that word?
The point remains: the islamist extremist believes she is doing the work of allah as described in her interpretation of the koran. The crackpot scientist is not claiming his eugenical philosophy is science at all. How could it be?
Quote Was Hitler wrong to say that the Jews should be anihilated? (I say he is, what do you say?) and if you say he is who are YOU to say that he is wrong? Your getting pummeled here. Not according to Godwin’s Law!
You say the numbers of extremists is small in relation to the total world population, and indeed there is probably as much fighting between muslim communities as there is violence enacted by muslims on non-muslims. However, we do not see large-scale protests across the islamic world when a suicide bomber strikes a Western target, do we? How do we interpret that? Do muslims fear the extremists and feel powerless? If so then islam has created a monster that it cannot control. Do muslims not care? If that is true, how could anyone call it the religion of peace?
Unless you can give a convincing answer to the question…
Who are YOU to say they are wrong?
…then I think we have to give as much credence to the extremists as we do to anyone.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Jan. 04 2010,21:29) Quote You tried to make a ridiculous point which was really a Non-sequitor and then you didn't expect for me to retaliate in the exact same manner? I keep telling you I have studied Logic and all manner of philosophy and science and unless you are extraordinarily well versed in these fields your attempts to obscure reality will be at best laughable.
I’m sorry to tell you that these are not the only things you appear to be well versed in. Would you like to demonstrate that I have provided you with a non-sequitur (the spelling and meaning of which you might have known were you were well-studied in philosophy)? How is this about retaliation? Is that islam in action?Quote You take Radicals and try to make them the norm so I took radicals and showed you that your defense would be the same as mine which proves my defense is perfectly acceptable to you when it concerns your beliefs. This is why I said you are knee deep in hypocrisy. And once again were these real scientist that created these hoaxes and made up lies about race and inferiority?
Maybe they were. Can you name an example? Was it science they were doing when they voiced those opinions? No, and every scientist can tell you that. Is it islam when an islamist gets radicalised at a madrassah then blows up a market square? They sure weren’t teaching buddhism, were they! It is done by them in the name of allah, and is most certainly thought by them to be whereas even the few examples there might be of nutcase scientists who support eugenics will tell you that it does not constitute their scientific work. That is because eugenics, social darwinism and all associated crackpot ideas are philosophical.Do you remember what you said science was earlier? Now you seem to be contradicting yourself. Is science ‘knowledge’? Is it, as I suggested, also the method by which that knowledge is gained? What else would you like to include in that word?
The point remains: the islamist extremist believes she is doing the work of allah as described in her interpretation of the koran. The crackpot scientist is not claiming his eugenical philosophy is science at all. How could it be?
Quote Was Hitler wrong to say that the Jews should be anihilated? (I say he is, what do you say?) and if you say he is who are YOU to say that he is wrong? Your getting pummeled here. Not according to Godwin’s Law!
You say the numbers of extremists is small in relation to the total world population, and indeed there is probably as much fighting between muslim communities as there is violence enacted by muslims on non-muslims. However, we do not see large-scale protests across the islamic world when a suicide bomber strikes a Western target, do we? How do we interpret that? Do muslims fear the extremists and feel powerless? If so then islam has created a monster that it cannot control. Do muslims not care? If that is true, how could anyone call it the religion of peace?
Unless you can give a convincing answer to the question…
Who are YOU to say they are wrong?
…then I think we have to give as much credence to the extremists as we do to anyone.
Stuart
Who am I to say they are wrong?I am a Literate Muslim who has studied and read for myself what the Quran says and doesn't say. Therefore according to the Quran it is wrong.
The question is who are You to say it's wrong, you don't even know A. What the Quran says and B. Believing in Natural selection how could it be “wrong” anyway?
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