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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,12:58) Hi BD,
Keep free from idols[1Jn5]
Your god is not our God and your teachings are of man.
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit leads us to false teachings and if so why?BTW, who taught you that the Quran was the teachings of a man?
Did The HOLY SPIRIT reveal this to you?
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Suppose someone was thinking about stealing but the Holy Spirit made them aware and gave them strength to overcome the temptation why should or would they then feel guilty.
I am a bit confused by your apparent assumption that a person would feel guilty for being tempted and not giving into it. Anyone foolish enough to do that is accusing the innocent. I would also say what they do is equivalent to accusing Jesus of wrongdoing as Jesus was tempted to do evil.
I look at temptation as a torment from Satan and desire he would stop. I know he will not do so until he is thrown down as his nature is to tempt.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote We need not feel guilty for making mistakes and those who willfully sin feel no guilt for it anyway.
That is what false teachers teach but it is not what God teaches. God states we need to feel the type of guilt that leads us to change our ways., That would be a deep and painful regret for wrongdoing that fuels our desire to change our ways and do right. That is not self-blame.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Our repentance is the overthrowing of our guilt …
That is correct since “repent” means:
Entry for “Repent” at thefreedictionary.common November 16, 2009 reads:
Quote 3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
And once you have made the change then you are no longer guilty of doing the deeds you used to do. Remorse is useful to make the change and to stop from repeating your past actions as you view what you once did as repugnant.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote how is it he comes up spotless and without blame and yet you remain under the cover of guilt?
Because you are not walking in his spirit and may not even have it.
If you are in Jesus and our Father and Jesus and our Father is in you then you would be as spotless and blameless as Jesus.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,07:34) Hi KW,
God arranges the circumstances of the lives of his children and does not allow them to be tested beyond grace and we can also pray against hard testing.[Mt6]But if our consciences have become corrupt and now accuse us day and night as in scruples and we listen to it we cannot listen to the constant encouragement of our God who is greater than our hearts
Strengthen those knees..walk in straight paths..{heb12]
You seem to be obsessed with self-blame. I believe self-blame is the result of worldly sorrow. To condemn yourself and believe you will not change is as evil as condemning another since love always hopes until it is over. That to is a temptation you must resist so the devil will run away, You resist it by having faith that you can and will change by the power of God.On the other hand you must feel guilt (remorse) for your wrongdoing and that remorse will lead to change for the better. That is what is called repentance. That is why Jesus teaches us to repent or perish.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2009,06:27) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 15 2009,19:31) bohitharta: I had many thoughts and ideas along this line and your posts have so cleared up and stablized my beliefs. Excellent job covering this topic with true scriptures within context. I don't see how anyone could refute what you have presented. Yet it never ceases to amaze me how people will fight nearly to death to hang on to previously accepted doctrines. Once again thank you for the great learning in these posts. God Bless you, TK
What has he presented?He refuses to answer my questions or address my points. At best he has chosen to state the biblical cannon we Westerners use is heresy because the Roman Catholic Church officially endorsed it.
Psalms 40:6 does not support his idea of bloodless atonement as that is not the point God was making. God was teaching his people that he wanted compassion and not sacrifice. Jesus' act of sacrifice is an act of compassion.
If you read the Law of Mosses you would know it commands both bloodless and blood atonement. Whether it is bloodless or not atonement without compassion is worthless.
Kerwin: For just a moment lets not look at the Quran or the Bible, each of which is a powerful influence to either side of this point. Lets just for once let common sense play a factor in our choice of belief. We know that any and maybe all the reading material we use is accurate only to a certain degree.
If I look at what it appears to me Adam did in the garden of eden he made a choice of belief, given to him from God, as to which information to believe. God warned him, if you believe in good and evil you will die. Just like we have the choice that God lays before us today, life or death and good or evil, we still choose. Most people called Adams choice a sin but that word is not used in the Garden of Eden. Whatever it was Adams mind changed from peace to fear from God. Instead of thinking all was good they began thinking what was good or bad. Like today, right or wrong.
God had warned Adam of his choices.He did not command him as in a law or rule, Love does not command. Adam was warned that if he chose to believe(in separation) apart from God he would follow that belief of death unto death(separation from life). Adam accepted death with life! Now the question, what atonement? It was a freewill choice. Any response or recompense to that action of belief was known to Adam.A choice is not a law to break It was not a sin or wrong. He had the right to choose it. An atonement is a making amends for an action that was wrong. Neither sacrifices nor sheding of an animals blood could make amends for Adams choice of thinking. The only way back to oneness with God was to change his thinking back to good only. Finally Jesus came to give us the truth of how to get back to oneness with God. Jesus said, if you accept my words(from God) that say you are clean, sanctified, and sinless then you have rechosen life with God in perfection. IMO, TKQuote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2009,23:22) bodhitharta wrote: Quote Suppose someone was thinking about stealing but the Holy Spirit made them aware and gave them strength to overcome the temptation why should or would they then feel guilty.
I am a bit confused by your apparent assumption that a person would feel guilty for being tempted and not giving into it. Anyone foolish enough to do that is accusing the innocent. I would also say what they do is equivalent to accusing Jesus of wrongdoing as Jesus was tempted to do evil.
I look at temptation as a torment from Satan and desire he would stop. I know he will not do so until he is thrown down as his nature is to tempt.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote We need not feel guilty for making mistakes and those who willfully sin feel no guilt for it anyway.
That is what false teachers teach but it is not what God teaches. God states we need to feel the type of guilt that leads us to change our ways., That would be a deep and painful regret for wrongdoing that fuels our desire to change our ways and do right. That is not self-blame.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Our repentance is the overthrowing of our guilt …
That is correct since “repent” means:
Entry for “Repent” at thefreedictionary.common November 16, 2009 reads:
Quote 3. To make a change for the better as a result of remorse or contrition for one's sins.
And once you have made the change then you are no longer guilty of doing the deeds you used to do. Remorse is useful to make the change and to stop from repeating your past actions as you view what you once did as repugnant.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote how is it he comes up spotless and without blame and yet you remain under the cover of guilt?
Because you are not walking in his spirit and may not even have it.
If you are in Jesus and our Father and Jesus and our Father is in you then you would be as spotless and blameless as Jesus.
KW,Your saying exactly what I was saying.
I didn't say I was under the cover of Guilt I was asking you why you were under the cover of guilt?
I don't have feelings of Guilt because I realize that the Holy Spirit is comforting me and teaching me all the time.
Once a person repents their corrections are towards God not away from God.
Also it is not wise to assume who is or isn't walking in the Spirit (that was a little satanic to say such a thing)
I forgive you so please don't feel guilty for doing me wrong
Quote (bodhitharta @ Nov. 16 2009,14:34) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 16 2009,12:58) Hi BD,
Keep free from idols[1Jn5]
Your god is not our God and your teachings are of man.
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit leads us to false teachings and if so why?BTW, who taught you that the Quran was the teachings of a man?
Did The HOLY SPIRIT reveal this to you?
Hi BD,
The teachings of Jesus and his Spirit are truth and you must abide in them.[2Jn9]You have left the saviour and gone searching for salvation by other names.
Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 17 2009,01:39) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 16 2009,06:27) Quote (Tim Kraft @ Nov. 15 2009,19:31) bohitharta: I had many thoughts and ideas along this line and your posts have so cleared up and stablized my beliefs. Excellent job covering this topic with true scriptures within context. I don't see how anyone could refute what you have presented. Yet it never ceases to amaze me how people will fight nearly to death to hang on to previously accepted doctrines. Once again thank you for the great learning in these posts. God Bless you, TK
What has he presented?He refuses to answer my questions or address my points. At best he has chosen to state the biblical cannon we Westerners use is heresy because the Roman Catholic Church officially endorsed it.
Psalms 40:6 does not support his idea of bloodless atonement as that is not the point God was making. God was teaching his people that he wanted compassion and not sacrifice. Jesus' act of sacrifice is an act of compassion.
If you read the Law of Mosses you would know it commands both bloodless and blood atonement. Whether it is bloodless or not atonement without compassion is worthless.
Kerwin: For just a moment lets not look at the Quran or the Bible, each of which is a powerful influence to either side of this point. Lets just for once let common sense play a factor in our choice of belief. We know that any and maybe all the reading material we use is accurate only to a certain degree.
If I look at what it appears to me Adam did in the garden of eden he made a choice of belief, given to him from God, as to which information to believe. God warned him, if you believe in good and evil you will die. Just like we have the choice that God lays before us today, life or death and good or evil, we still choose. Most people called Adams choice a sin but that word is not used in the Garden of Eden. Whatever it was Adams mind changed from peace to fear from God. Instead of thinking all was good they began thinking what was good or bad. Like today, right or wrong.
God had warned Adam of his choices.He did not command him as in a law or rule, Love does not command. Adam was warned that if he chose to believe(in separation) apart from God he would follow that belief of death unto death(separation from life). Adam accepted death with life! Now the question, what atonement? It was a freewill choice. Any response or recompense to that action of belief was known to Adam.A choice is not a law to break It was not a sin or wrong. He had the right to choose it. An atonement is a making amends for an action that was wrong. Neither sacrifices nor sheding of an animals blood could make amends for Adams choice of thinking. The only way back to oneness with God was to change his thinking back to good only. Finally Jesus came to give us the truth of how to get back to oneness with God. Jesus said, if you accept my words(from God) that say you are clean, sanctified, and sinless then you have rechosen life with God in perfection. IMO, TK
TK,That is exactly right! 100% accurate.
Before the fruit of good and bad was eaten God had explained that everything he created was good and permitted except for the tree of the knowledge of what is good and what is bad it was the only forbidden choice
Therefore Adam and Eve already had the Knowledge of good and evil since God had told them quite plainly everything is permitted(good) except the tree of knowledge(Bad)
The devil convinced them that there was more to know than what was already known and hence he seduced them into making a forbidden choice which allowed a change in their thinking realizing they had themselves become “Bad” because the tree was “good” in regards to giving them the knowledge.
The fact is the first time sin is mentioned in the Bible it is God explaining that you can choose to master it he told this to cain who gave a grain offering there was no mention of blood to overcome sin.
God says clearly what he wants:
If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Genesis 4:6-8God directly says if you do not behave right sin will develop in you and you must rule over it. In other words resist the devil and he will flee from you.
Jesus said his “words” are spirit and they give life, for those who have ears they demand no sacrifice at all.
They understand:
And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.
1 Samuel 15:21-23So many here say that God took the lesser(Sacrifice) to satisfy the greater(obedience)
And that God chose the lesser(Sacrifice) over the greater(Mercy)
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:5-7But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:12-14But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:6-8I WILL HAVE MERCY and NOT SACRIFICE
God hates human sacrifice
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
Jeremiah 32:34-36He calls such an act an abomination no appeasing God with what God Himself calls an abomination.
Jesus in this parable explains that the people were plotting an act of Violence
Matthew 21:37-43 (King James Version)
37But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
No Sacrifice can be accepted through an act of hate and violence.
The only Sacrifice truly acceptable to God:
And let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and declare his works with rejoicing.
Psalm 107:21-23But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
Jonah 2:8-10Speaking of Jonah was he alive or dead in the belly of the whale?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2009,05:14) Hi BD,
So the husbandmen killed the son of God.
or so they thought.bodhitharta wrote:
Quote I don't have feelings of Guilt because I realize that the Holy Spirit is comforting me and teaching me all the time.
I am pointing out that in order to please God you have to have a feeling of guilt.
The difference is that I believe I mean something different by the word guilt than you do. I believe that I mean “remorse” that leads to change while you mean “sef-blame” which does not lead to change.
If I am correct about what you meant by the word “guilt” then what you state is correct since worldly sorrow does not come from the Spirit.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Also it is not wise to assume who is or isn't walking in the Spirit (that was a little satanic to say such a thing)
If someone is sinning in a way that is obvious then it is also obvious they are not walking according to the ways of the spirit since someone walking according to the ways of the spirit does not sin. It is more difficult to say who does or does not have the Spirit.
Hi KW,
God is pleased with guilty children?
You must be joking.When we sin He wants us to acknowledge it and learn and move on.
You seem to want a schoolmaster not a loving FatherTim Kraft wrote:
Quote For just a moment lets not look at the Quran or the Bible, each of which is a powerful influence to either side of this point. Lets just for once let common sense play a factor in our choice of belief.
You tread a dangerous path in attempting to compromise between false prophets and true prophets even though they both may claim to believe in the God of Jesus.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote We know that any and maybe all the reading material we use is accurate only to a certain degree.
We also know that those who believe God are those that are considered righteous. If you choose not to believe God then you are subject to judgment.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote Whatever it was Adams mind changed from peace to fear from God. Instead of thinking all was good they began thinking what was good or bad.
That is conjecture. Adam and Eve already knew about obedience and disobedience since God had previously commanded them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I do not believe they were subject to temptation until Satan tempted Eve. That is conjecture on my side based on how they became ashamed of their nakedness.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote Love does not command.
That is a strange idea because a mother that loves her child commands that child not to perform dangerous duties. Be careful not to enable evil by being permissive.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote Now the question, what atonement? It was a freewill choice. Any response or recompense to that action of belief was known to Adam. A choice is not a law to break It was not a sin or wrong. He had the right to choose it.
He violated God’s command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is a sin though it is also a choice.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote The only way back to oneness with God was to change his thinking back to good only. Finally Jesus came to give us the truth of how to get back to oneness with God. Jesus said,
if you accept my words(from God)…I agree with this right up to the point I stopped quoting it as your last comment was incorrect.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote that say you are clean, sanctified, and sinless then you have rechosen life with God in perfection. IMO, TK
Jesus did not state that. Jesus stated something to the effect that “if you are not more righteous than the Pharisees and teachers of Law then you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” God requires you to actually to doing good even though you are still tempted by evil.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2009,02:22) Hi KW,
God is pleased with guilty children?
You must be joking.When we sin He wants us to acknowledge it and learn and move on.
You seem to want a schoolmaster not a loving Father
That is what James states:James 4:8-10(KJV) reads:
Quote Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2009,07:16) bodhitharta wrote: Quote I don't have feelings of Guilt because I realize that the Holy Spirit is comforting me and teaching me all the time.
I am pointing out that in order to please God you have to have a feeling of guilt.
The difference is that I believe I mean something different by the word guilt than you do. I believe that I mean “remorse” that leads to change while you mean “sef-blame” which does not lead to change.
If I am correct about what you meant by the word “guilt” then what you state is correct since worldly sorrow does not come from the Spirit.
bodhitharta wrote:
Quote Also it is not wise to assume who is or isn't walking in the Spirit (that was a little satanic to say such a thing)
If someone is sinning in a way that is obvious then it is also obvious they are not walking according to the ways of the spirit since someone walking according to the ways of the spirit does not sin. It is more difficult to say who does or does not have the Spirit.
Yes, but you did say who was or wasn't walking in the Spirit and you saw no sin being done or what sin was done for you to say such a thing, not by your opinion but by scripture where is the sin?Yes, remorse and not guilt. Guilty feelings to me mean dwelling on a fault, remorse means acknowledging a fault.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2009,07:45) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Nov. 17 2009,02:22) Hi KW,
God is pleased with guilty children?
You must be joking.When we sin He wants us to acknowledge it and learn and move on.
You seem to want a schoolmaster not a loving Father
That is what James states:James 4:8-10(KJV) reads:
Quote Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.
Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness.
Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
Hi KW,
Do these descriptions fit you?
Then deal with them and move on.Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 17 2009,07:40) Tim Kraft wrote: Quote For just a moment lets not look at the Quran or the Bible, each of which is a powerful influence to either side of this point. Lets just for once let common sense play a factor in our choice of belief.
You tread a dangerous path in attempting to compromise between false prophets and true prophets even though they both may claim to believe in the God of Jesus.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote We know that any and maybe all the reading material we use is accurate only to a certain degree.
We also know that those who believe God are those that are considered righteous. If you choose not to believe God then you are subject to judgment.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote Whatever it was Adams mind changed from peace to fear from God. Instead of thinking all was good they began thinking what was good or bad.
That is conjecture. Adam and Eve already knew about obedience and disobedience since God had previously commanded them not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. I do not believe they were subject to temptation until Satan tempted Eve. That is conjecture on my side based on how they became ashamed of their nakedness.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote Love does not command.
That is a strange idea because a mother that loves her child commands that child not to perform dangerous duties. Be careful not to enable evil by being permissive.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote Now the question, what atonement? It was a freewill choice. Any response or recompense to that action of belief was known to Adam. A choice is not a law to break It was not a sin or wrong. He had the right to choose it.
He violated God’s command not to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. That is a sin though it is also a choice.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote The only way back to oneness with God was to change his thinking back to good only. Finally Jesus came to give us the truth of how to get back to oneness with God. Jesus said,
if you accept my words(from God)…I agree with this right up to the point I stopped quoting it as your last comment was incorrect.
Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote that say you are clean, sanctified, and sinless then you have rechosen life with God in perfection. IMO, TK
Jesus did not state that. Jesus stated something to the effect that “if you are not more righteous than the Pharisees and teachers of Law then you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.” God requires you to actually to doing good even though you are still tempted by evil.
KW,How is it you claim who is a false prophet?
Why don't you call Paul a false prophet he said he saw Jesus in the spirit and Jesus said that False Prophets would come after he was gone:
Matthew 24:23-25 (King James Version)
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
Paul did that exact thing.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Paul also did this.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
But you think you know who a False Prophet is? Jesus could not have come to Paul in Spirit according to the scriptures because he ascended to God in the Flesh and the angels said likewise he will return.
In revelations Jesus sends an angel to John. Jesus told you before it happened and it happened immediately, Paul never met Jesus in the Flesh and he was ANTI-Christ killing the members of the church before his “calling”
Matthew 7:14-16 (King James Version)
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
1 Corinthians 9:21-23But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile.
2 Corinthians 12:15-17For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
Romans 3:6-8Yet you believe that Paul is not a false prophet simply because his work is in the Bible knowing that the bible is a collection of works and not a single work.
But you call Muhammad a False Prophet and he doesn't claim to have seen Christ or spoken to God directly, he says Gabriel The Holy Angel that stands in the presence of God related this revelation and guess what that is how it is done in the bible.
Christ did not come to Peter or anyone else and say listen to Paul. Jesus said if someone says they saw him they would be lying but Paul doesn't care because he believes it is the best thing to do.
For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Romans 9:2-4In other words Paul is truly fighting for Judaism realizing to put the “Christians” in the wrong God will have mercy also on the Jews
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
Romans 11:31-33Therefore if you believe that Paul is not a False Prophet then neither can you blame Muhammad or call Islam a false religion because according to Paul no one believes rightly and because of this God will have Mercy on ALL
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