Bloodless atonement

[bodhitharta]

Mercy not Sacrifice

It just occured to me how to prove what I have been saying to you the time is 7:34 pm wednesday, Aug 25th 2010

All I have to do is prove to you is bloodless atonement which is shown in leviticus with the scapegoat

Now understanding that there is bloodless atonement we also no that God prefers Mercy over Sacrifice in-fact HE says:

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:5-7

and Jesus said:

But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:12-14

Yes, Jesus said go learn what this means but notice Jesus says I WILL HAVE MERCY and NOT SACRIFICE

Leviticus 16:10

10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:21

And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

Matthew 3:13-15 (King James Version)

13Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

14But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?

15And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John was the FIT man that led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil because at that time Jesus had taken on the iniquities of Israel as the baptism of John is the baptism of repentance for the remission of sin and John clearly said:

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
John 1:28-30

notice John did not say is slain for the sin of the world but as the scapegoat he takes away the sin of the world.

The fact is if I have shown you that bloodless atonemet is even possible then that would mean you would certainly agree that God saying “I desire Mercy and not sacrifice”

That a bloodless atonement would be more likely and the Quran simply ackowledges that God in-fact did prefer bloodless atonement and once again Jesus says:

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:6-8

Jesus is calling this crucifixion a condemnation, not a propriation and he says that if they knew what God wanted they would not do it so if Jesus is saying that God does not want Sacrifice but Mercy then now after knowing what I have shown you here do you still condemn the guiltless?

And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Psalm 106:37-39

God hates Human Sacrifice and hates the shedding of innocent blood

Lamentations 4 (King James Version)

13For the sins of her prophets, and the iniquities of her priests, that have shed the blood of the just in the midst of her,

and finally

For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
Jeremiah 7:21-23

can you see that Francis God is teaching you these things

Jeremiah 7:23 (King James Version)

23But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.

This all God ever wanted from anyone and this is what he means when said:

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:5-7

Now you know.

[Spock]

Jesus never taught human or blood sacrifice, he taught mercy and faith, but the Jews were very sacrificial as we're the Pagans. The Jews rejected the original gospel.

Colter

[francis]

Hello bodhitharta… I haven't been on here in a long time, but are you writing to me? If you were, and you wish to continue, let me know and i will respond.

I hope all is well and I'm glad to see you are still on here fighting for your beliefs… even though I disagree with them.

Take care
Francis

[942767]

Hi BD & Francis:

If you want to take a chance, but what if you are wrong?  

This the account in Genesis where God tried Abraham's faith by telling him to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice.

Quote

Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

God had promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the stars in heaven or the sand on the beach for the multitude, but then he asks him to do this?  Abraham trusted God that even if he went through with this, God must have a solution to the problem if his desendants were to be as God had promised.  No way without Isaac because the God had told him also “that in Isaac would his seed be called”.

Quote

Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

And so, Abraham assured Isaac that “God would provide the sacrifice”, and he did at that time, by a ram caught in the thicket, and spared Isaac, and this is symbolic of the sacrifice that God has provided for “whosoever wants to freely be reconciled to God”.  You can't buy salvation, and you can not earn it through good works or any other way.  God does not require a sacrifice from you or me.  All he asks is that we believe what he has said.

Quote

5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the(a) Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony:God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life.

Quote

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

Quote

9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you.

Quote

1Peter1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.

What if you are wrong, in lite of these scriptures?

Love in Christ,
Marty

[mikeboll64]

To believe that Jesus' “blood sacrifice” wasn't part of God's plan is to not believe the words of Jesus himself.

John 12:27
“Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.”

So the only question is whether you believe the very words of Jesus Christ……….. or not.

[francis]

Hello Marty…

I'm not sure how your post… or the verses you listed… contradicts or negates my belief that Jesus was the perfect and only true sacrifice that was required to reconcile man with God.  Indeed… how does your post… or the verses you listed… even contradict what mikeboll64 said in his most recent response to what you wrote to me or to Asana?

Of course God must have had a solution to the “problem” that would have occured if Isaac had actually been “sacrificed” or killed by Abraham. If there is no Isaac… then God's promise that Abraham's descendants would be as numerous as the sand on the beach, would not have been fulfilled.  So either God had to provide something in place of Isaac… or God would have had to raise Isaac from the dead if Abraham had killed Isaac… to make sure that God's promise to Abraham would be fulfilled.

God's solution of providing a ram in place of Isaac… doesn't contradict nor negate the belief that Jesus was sacrificed so that we can be reconciled to God.  It's just that in Jesus' case, God chose to raise Jesus from the dead through the Resurrection, instead of supplying a ram like he did for Isaac… because only Jesus' perfect and sinless nature and blood… was the perfect sacrifice for humanity.  The sacrifice of a ram… of a cow… of a bird… of sheep… or of any animal at all… would NOT have been sufficient to reconcile man to God for man's sins. Animal sacrifice was only a temporary solution until Jesus' perfect sacrifice could accomplish what the sacrifice of animals could not.

Indeed… nowhere does it say that Isaac was being sacrificed to reconcile Abraham to God… or was being done for Abraham's salvation. So whatever the reasons were for God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac… it obviously had nothing to do with salvation or reconciliation. So as far as I can see… this story about Isaac has nothing to do with what Jesus did on earth or what he did on the cross. So I don't understand why you bring the story up.

Now whether or not you believe that… the point I'm trying to make here is that Your post… and the verses you listed in your post… does nothing to contradict or negate anything I just said. And that is my entire point. I'm not here to refute what you said… but only to show that you did nothing to refute what I said…. or do anyting to refute the belief that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary if man was to be reconciled to God at all.

So then… where does it say in the Bible that Jesus must not be sacrificed… or could not be a sufficient sacrifice to reconcile man to God?

And how does what I outlined to you above, suggest that by believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is tantamount to trying to buy or earn my reconcilation with God?  Of course we can't buy salvation.  Of course we can not earn it through good works or in any other way.  And of course God does not require a sacrifice from you or me.

My salvation and reconciliation to God is not bought or earned or dependent on anything I did… but solely on what Jesus did on the cross in place of me.  Jesus was the sacrifice… not me.

So I'm just not understanding why you wrote to me and asked me: “What if you are wrong, in lite of these scriptures?”  The scriptures you listed doesn't contradict or refute anything I said.

Can you see my confusion?

God Bless
Francis

[942767]

Quote (francis @ June 17 2014,06:26)

Hello Marty… I'm not sure how your post… or the verses you listed… contradicts or negates my belief that Jesus was the perfect and only true sacrifice that was required to reconcile man with God.  Indeed… how does your post… or the verses you listed… even contradict what mikeboll64 said in his most recent response to what you wrote to me or to Asana? Of course God must have had a solution to the “problem” that would have occured if Isaac had actually been “sacrificed” or killed by Abraham. If there is no Isaac… then God's promise that Abraham's descendants would be as numerous as the sand on the beach, would not have been fulfilled.  So either God had to provide something in place of Isaac… or God would have had to raise Isaac from the dead if Abraham had killed Isaac… to make sure that God's promise to Abraham would be fulfilled. God's solution of providing a ram in place of Isaac… doesn't contradict nor negate the belief that Jesus was sacrificed so that we can be reconciled to God.  It's just that in Jesus' case, God chose to raise Jesus from the dead through the Resurrection, instead of supplying a ram like he did for Isaac… because only Jesus' perfect and sinless nature and blood… was the perfect sacrifice for humanity.  The sacrifice of a ram… of a cow… of a bird… of sheep… or of any animal at all… would NOT have been sufficient to reconcile man to God for man's sins. Animal sacrifice was only a temporary solution until Jesus' perfect sacrifice could accomplish what the sacrifice of animals could not. Indeed… nowhere does it say that Isaac was being sacrificed to reconcile Abraham to God… or was being done for Abraham's salvation.  So whatever the reasons were for God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac… it obviously had nothing to do with salvation or reconciliation.  So as far as I can see… this story about Isaac has nothing to do with what Jesus did on earth or what he did on the cross.  So I don't understand why you bring the story up. Now whether or not you believe that… the point I'm trying to make here is that Your post… and the verses you listed in your post… does nothing to contradict or negate anything I just said. And that is my entire point. I'm not here to refute what you said… but only to show that you did nothing to refute what I said…. or do anyting to refute the belief that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary if man was to be reconciled to God at all. So then… where does it say in the Bible that Jesus must not be sacrificed… or could not be a sufficient sacrifice to reconcile man to God? And how does what I outlined to you above, suggest that by believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is tantamount to trying to buy or earn my reconcilation with God?  Of course we can't buy salvation.  Of course we can not earn it through good works or in any other way.  And of course God does not require a sacrifice from you or me. My salvation and reconciliation to God is not bought or earned or dependent on anything I did… but solely on what Jesus did on the cross in place of me.  Jesus was the sacrifice… not me. So I'm just not understanding why you wrote to me and asked me: “What if you are wrong, in lite of these scriptures?”  The scriptures you listed doesn't contradict or refute anything I said. Can you see my confusion? God Bless Francis

Hi Francis:

If you believe that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, and the only means by which a man can be reconciled to God, then what I have written do not apply to you.

BD is a Muslim and does not believe that Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead, and so, what I said is directed to him for sure, and perhaps, what I said was meant for him and for colter.

Sorry for the confusion.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Ed J]

Hi Guys,

The problem lies in the muslim understanding of the word “Christ”.
They fail to  understand that Christ means God's anointed LEADER.
For the muslim, Muhammad is their anointed leader rather than Jesus.

B'shem
YHVH

[Ed J]

Quote (francis @ June 17 2014,06:26)

Can you see my confusion?

Yes

[bodhitharta]

Quote (francis @ June 14 2014,02:53)

Hello bodhitharta… I haven't been on here in a long time, but are you writing to me? If you were, and you wish to continue, let me know and i will respond. I hope all is well and I'm glad to see you are still on here fighting for your beliefs… even though I disagree with them. Take care Francis

Yes Francis that was for you but it can extend to anyone willing to respond. God Bless you and it is good to hear from you again as well.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ June 15 2014,13:14)

Hi BD & Francis: If you want to take a chance, but what if you are wrong?   This the account in Genesis where God tried Abraham's faith by telling him to offer his son Isaac as a sacrifice. Quote Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. God had promised Abraham that his descendants would be as the stars in heaven or the sand on the beach for the multitude, but then he asks him to do this?  Abraham trusted God that even if he went through with this, God must have a solution to the problem if his desendants were to be as God had promised.  No way without Isaac because the God had told him also “that in Isaac would his seed be called”. Quote Gen 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him. Gen 22:4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off. Gen 22:5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you. Gen 22:6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. Gen 22:7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? Gen 22:8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And so, Abraham assured Isaac that “God would provide the sacrifice”, and he did at that time, by a ram caught in the thicket, and spared Isaac, and this is symbolic of the sacrifice that God has provided for “whosoever wants to freely be reconciled to God”.  You can't buy salvation, and you can not earn it through good works or any other way.  God does not require a sacrifice from you or me.  All he asks is that we believe what he has said. Quote 5 Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves the father loves his child as well. 2 This is how we know that we love the children of God: by loving God and carrying out his commands. 3 In fact, this is love for God: to keep his commands. And his commands are not burdensome, 4 for everyone born of God overcomes the world. This is the victory that has overcome the world, even our faith. 5 Who is it that overcomes the world? Only the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. 6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. 7 For there are three that testify: 8 the(a) Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept human testimony, but God’s testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony:God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. Quote 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you. Quote 9 You, however, are not in the realm of the flesh but are in the realm of the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, they do not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life[d] because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies because of[e] his Spirit who lives in you. Quote 1Peter1:17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear. 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect. 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21 Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. What if you are wrong, in lite of these scriptures? Love in Christ, Marty

Hi Marty

Isn't it clear that you showed scripture that explains that God showed Mercy to Isaac and did not allow Abraham's son to be sacrificed? God showed the one he called friend that he would not allow his son to be sacrificed in light of that it coincides with the thought of God doing the same for His own “Son”

[bodhitharta]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 16 2014,04:44)

To believe that Jesus' “blood sacrifice” wasn't part of God's plan is to not believe the words of Jesus himself. John 12:27 “Now my soul is troubled, and what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour.” So the only question is whether you believe the very words of Jesus Christ……….. or not.

Jesus believed he would be crucified just as Abraham believed Isaac would be sacrificed but believing he would be crucified does not mean God didn't spare him just as God spared the people in the day of Jonah despite the fact that Jonah believed they would be all killed.

Plus Jesus did ask to be saved from the cross. John 12:27 he asks should he asked to be saved from the hour and says no however Mark 14:36

“Abba, Father,” he said, “everything is possible for you. Take this cup from me. Yet not what I will, but what you will.”

Notice he says “Everything is possible for you”

Is he not clearly stating he wants to be saved and regardless of the looming reality of the situation he still believes that God will in fact “save him”.

If it was his belief that there was no problem with this that he was saving the world by his death and then be resurrected there would be no need for such grief and trouble in his soul, this is clearly someone who does not want to be MURDERED for no reason. And God did save him:

Matthew 13:14

And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says: ‘Hearing you will hear and shall not understand, And seeing you will see and not perceive;

(1) That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah”;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #157)

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ June 21 2014,09:49)

Quote (francis @ June 17 2014,06:26) Hello Marty… I'm not sure how your post… or the verses you listed… contradicts or negates my belief that Jesus was the perfect and only true sacrifice that was required to reconcile man with God.  Indeed… how does your post… or the verses you listed… even contradict what mikeboll64 said in his most recent response to what you wrote to me or to Asana? Of course God must have had a solution to the “problem” that would have occured if Isaac had actually been “sacrificed” or killed by Abraham. If there is no Isaac… then God's promise that Abraham's descendants would be as numerous as the sand on the beach, would not have been fulfilled.  So either God had to provide something in place of Isaac… or God would have had to raise Isaac from the dead if Abraham had killed Isaac… to make sure that God's promise to Abraham would be fulfilled. God's solution of providing a ram in place of Isaac… doesn't contradict nor negate the belief that Jesus was sacrificed so that we can be reconciled to God.  It's just that in Jesus' case, God chose to raise Jesus from the dead through the Resurrection, instead of supplying a ram like he did for Isaac… because only Jesus' perfect and sinless nature and blood… was the perfect sacrifice for humanity.  The sacrifice of a ram… of a cow… of a bird… of sheep… or of any animal at all… would NOT have been sufficient to reconcile man to God for man's sins. Animal sacrifice was only a temporary solution until Jesus' perfect sacrifice could accomplish what the sacrifice of animals could not. Indeed… nowhere does it say that Isaac was being sacrificed to reconcile Abraham to God… or was being done for Abraham's salvation.  So whatever the reasons were for God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac… it obviously had nothing to do with salvation or reconciliation.  So as far as I can see… this story about Isaac has nothing to do with what Jesus did on earth or what he did on the cross.  So I don't understand why you bring the story up. Now whether or not you believe that… the point I'm trying to make here is that Your post… and the verses you listed in your post… does nothing to contradict or negate anything I just said. And that is my entire point. I'm not here to refute what you said… but only to show that you did nothing to refute what I said…. or do anyting to refute the belief that Jesus' sacrifice was necessary if man was to be reconciled to God at all. So then… where does it say in the Bible that Jesus must not be sacrificed… or could not be a sufficient sacrifice to reconcile man to God? And how does what I outlined to you above, suggest that by believing in Jesus' sacrifice on the cross is tantamount to trying to buy or earn my reconcilation with God?  Of course we can't buy salvation.  Of course we can not earn it through good works or in any other way.  And of course God does not require a sacrifice from you or me. My salvation and reconciliation to God is not bought or earned or dependent on anything I did… but solely on what Jesus did on the cross in place of me.  Jesus was the sacrifice… not me. So I'm just not understanding why you wrote to me and asked me: “What if you are wrong, in lite of these scriptures?”  The scriptures you listed doesn't contradict or refute anything I said. Can you see my confusion? God Bless Francis Hi Francis: If you believe that Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, and the only means by which a man can be reconciled to God, then what I have written do not apply to you. BD is a Muslim and does not believe that Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead, and so, what I said is directed to him for sure, and perhaps, what I said was meant for him and for colter. Sorry for the confusion. Love in Christ, Marty

Jesus was going to be MURDERED there was no dying for anyone else's sin if so he would not said they “condemned the guiltless” He didn't even say he was bearing the cross for them. look:

Luke 14:27

And whosoever doth not bear his cross, and come after me, cannot be my disciple.

So how is it you believe Jesus beared the cross for you?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ June 21 2014,10:28)

Hi Guys, The problem lies in the muslim understanding of the word “Christ”. They fail to  understand that Christ means God's anointed LEADER. For the muslim, Muhammad is their anointed leader rather than Jesus. B'shem YHVH

To the Muslim “Christ” means the same thing you believe it means. Keep in mind that Muslims worship GOD above all:

(3) They take their priests and their anchorites to be their lords in derogation of Allah, and (they take as their Lord) Christ the son of Mary; yet they were commanded to worship but One Allah: there is no god but He. Praise and glory to Him: (Far is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him).

( سورة التوبة , At-Taubah, Chapter #9, Verse #31)

This is the right way according to the Bible:

Deuteronomy 6:4

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord.

Now we know that Christians claim at least 2 lords, correct?

[Ed J]

Hi my friend, and hi Francis,

I have two questions, and I will ask the second when we are finished discussing the first.

Concerning when Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of Egypt,
did Pharaoh make Joseph a partner?   (<– "Yes" or "No" ?)

B'shem
YHVH

[bodhitharta]

Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2014,19:38)

Hi my friend, and hi Francis, I have two questions, and I will ask the second when we are finished discussing the first. Concerning when Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of Egypt, did Pharaoh make Joseph a partner?   (< -- "Yes" or "No" ?) B'shem YHVH

no

[bodhitharta]

40″You shall be over my house, and according to your command all my people shall do homage; only in the throne I will be greater than you.”

This is not a partnership it is a charge, to say only “in the throne I will be greater than you” means that their is no partnership

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 27 2014,12:07)

Quote (Ed J @ June 24 2014,19:38) Hi my friend, and hi Francis, I have two questions, and I will ask the second when we are finished discussing the first. Concerning when Pharaoh put Joseph in charge of Egypt, did Pharaoh make Joseph a partner?   (< -- "Yes" or "No" ?) B'shem YHVH no

Hi BD,

Concerning a father that has a son, is the son the father's partner?

Ed J

[Ed J]

Quote (bodhitharta @ June 27 2014,12:10)

40″You shall be over my house, and according to your command all my people shall do homage; only in the throne I will be greater than you.” This is not a partnership it is a charge, to say only “in the throne I will be greater than you” means that their is no partnership

Agreed  

[Wakeup]

Muslems can say what they like, but must proof to us that allah is the same God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
They claim; but can not bring forth evidence.I can proof that allah is not Jehovah God.
Allah has no begotten son. Jehovah has His only begotten Son.
They claim that Jesus is special,but never mention His name in their prayers.
But Mohamad they mention.You can see them by their deeds.
Jesus taught us to pray in secret; islam teach to pray in public places.
Muslems say allah is great; but who is this allah? Could be anything.
Jehovah brought out the jews from Egypt to a promised land, the land of milk and honey.
If they truly believe in the same God;why are the now resisting the jews living in israel?
Which is the will of Jehovah God.
Why are they against the will of God? If allah is Jehovah;why are they resisting allah’s will?
Why not obey the will of the great allah? why go opposite to the will of Jehovah God?
That was a jewish conspiracy they will say. That could be said regarding allah as well.
There is a great hypocrisy going on here; or allah is not the God of Abraham,but some other god.
Allah is great they say; but go against his will; if allah is Jehovah God,which he is not.
Muslems dont teach and do what Jesus taught us;and that is to give the other cheek.
But they teach revenge; You can see them by their fruits.

wakeup.

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