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Here's another example of “Exception for Jesus” logic:
Moses was called “elohim”, was given great power by God, performed many signs and wonders, and even had is own prophet Aaron.
And Trinitarians have no problem coming to the logical conclusion that Moses was someone OTHER THAN and LESSOR TO the Being who placed him in the position he was in.
Jesus was called “elohim”, was given great power by God, performed many signs and wonders, and had his own prophet John the Baptist.
But Trinitarians can't seem to come to that same logical conclusion with Jesus as they did with Moses. Why?
They will point out that Jesus is different than Moses. Okay, I agree. But how does your common sense (that tells you since GOD gave power TO Moses, then Moses is not the God who gave power TO him) go out the window when it comes to Jesus? Moses was sent BY God, so was Jesus. Moses worshipped God, so did Jesus. Moses was anointed BY God, so was Jesus. Moses was a servant OF God, so is Jesus.
How could they let ALL of these things (and the many more comparisons I could make) just fly right out the window simply because they WANT Jesus to illogically BE the God he was sent by?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,08:47) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2011,07:10) Mike…………..Kind of like you and your root and offspring of David thing right, So i would not be so hard on the trinitarians when you preexistence are doing the same thing right?. peace and love……………………………gene
Thank you Gene for this one:Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Non-preexister: This really means that Jesus was FROM the Root of David.
But it doesn't say “FROM” the Root of David, does it? Also, it would already be abundantly clear that someone who was FROM the Root of David would be a branch, or “offspring” of David, right? So why add the words “AND Offspring” to the sentence? It would be like Jesus saying, “I am the Offspring AND the Offspring of David”.
This is just another of many cases where people have to add their own words into the scriptures to make those scriptures teach what they WANT them to teach.
My doctrine doesn't require this this kind of nonsense.
What?It does say root of David as well as saying the offspring of David.
I believe you meant to say it does not only say root of David.
What do you believe that the child excisted before his mother did?
That is truly a bizarre belief.
Did you exist before your mother. Were the apostles preexistent.
Quote John 17:18(KJV) 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,08:31) Quote (kerwin @ June 20 2011,23:48) Mike you open yourself up on that claim as Jesus states he sent his disciples into the world as he was sent into the world.
Hi Kerwin,How many of Jesus' disciples said “I came DOWN from heaven”? Stick with the Bizzaro reasoning I actually posted, and if you can, refute MY understanding of those scriptural words. Because THAT is what this thread is all about: I'm hoping that people like you and Gene and Keith WILL come over here and clarify some of this nonsense.
I will await said clarification from you about “I came down from heaven”, as it will undoubtedly give us even MORE gibberish to headline in this thread.
peace,
mike
Mike,You are using bizarro reasoning in what you just stated.
Why should I debate with one that is in denial?
You have chosen to believe what you desire and to ignore all else. At that point I can but pray for you.
Quote John 17(KJV) 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
The apostles were sent into the world the same was as Jesus and so according to you bizaro reasoning they are preexistent as well.
In short people believe as they choose to believe.
I just hope each of us strive to seek God and his righteousness.
You of course do not see your position as bizarro. Nor does WJ see his. I also do not see mine as bizarro.
Jesus is correct that if one is not led by God they will not come to know the truth. Each of us should therefore always seek to be led by God even when we believe we are standing firm.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,13:51) Quote (Pastry @ June 21 2011,15:57) t8 I am sure surprised that you believe in the trinity.
Hi Irene,You have mistaken something t8 said, for he clearly does NOT believe in the trinity, and tirelessly and brilliantly shows how comically flawed that doctrine is.
Perhaps your new meds are messin' with your head?
I pray you are getting stronger and healthier every day.
peace and love,
mike
Yes I can assure you Irene that I definitely do not believe in the Trinity doctrine and have been exposing its foolishness for years.What made you think I was teaching the Trinity. I am curious now.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,14:56) Here's another example of “Exception for Jesus” logic:
Yes that exception rule is definitely bizarre.As soon as Jesus is mentioned all logic and teaching by pattern in scripture is thrown out the window.
Ye are theos is pretty much ignored, while any kind of attribution of theos to Christ and that makes him YHWH the Most High God, despite clear scriptures that oppose this idea.
For us there is one God the Father.
This is eternal life, that you may know the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.The scripture “mighty el and everlasting father” is a scripture that both Trinitarians and Oneness exploit.
Trinitarians say that mighty el is tantamount to Almighty God and Oneness say the same thing but also tack on that Jesus is the Father.
Both groups are guilty of exploiting this scripture for their own twisted agenda.
The bizzare thing is that there is no reward in doing this. No heavenly reward and you don't even get paid for supporting these doctrines.
What is the point. It is a waste of everyone's time to twist scriptures to mean something else.
T8………Lets be honest there is hardly any difference between Preexistences and Trinitarians , they bothbelieve in the Preexistence of Jesus before he came to this earth. you o nlyissue with them is that Jesus was a preexisting GOd as they believe, and nothing else IMO. All Preexistences have their beginnings in the doctrine of the trinity and carry most of those teaching into their new Jesus Morphed Being from some past existence. You are all in the same camp of false teachers even if you don't understand it now, but a time will come when you will I assure your of that. IMO
peace and love……………………………………………gene
Quote (kerwin @ June 22 2011,15:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,08:47) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 21 2011,07:10) Mike…………..Kind of like you and your root and offspring of David thing right, So i would not be so hard on the trinitarians when you preexistence are doing the same thing right?. peace and love……………………………gene
Thank you Gene for this one:Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Non-preexister: This really means that Jesus was FROM the Root of David.
But it doesn't say “FROM” the Root of David, does it? Also, it would already be abundantly clear that someone who was FROM the Root of David would be a branch, or “offspring” of David, right? So why add the words “AND Offspring” to the sentence? It would be like Jesus saying, “I am the Offspring AND the Offspring of David”.
This is just another of many cases where people have to add their own words into the scriptures to make those scriptures teach what they WANT them to teach.
My doctrine doesn't require this this kind of nonsense.
What?It does say root of David as well as saying the offspring of David.
I believe you meant to say it does not only say root of David.
What do you believe that the child excisted before his mother did?
That is truly a bizarre belief.
Did you exist before your mother. Were the apostles preexistent.
Quote John 17:18(KJV) 18As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
Kerwin……….> They can't agree with us on this because it would destory all they house of cards they have built there false beliefs on. They like to call others as Bizarre when nothing can be more bizarre then the teachings of Preexistences and Trinitarians their brothers. They are both the same with the only difference being they Believe Jesus was Morphed from a Angelic state where the others believes he was a preexisting God Morphed into a human being there is no real difference in them at all, both are false teachers. IMOpeace and love to you and yours…………………………gene
Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,05:18) The scripture “mighty el and everlasting father” is a scripture that both Trinitarians and Oneness exploit. Trinitarians say that mighty el is tantamount to Almighty God and Oneness say the same thing but also tack on that Jesus is the Father.
Both groups are guilty of exploiting this scripture for their own twisted agenda.
The bizzare thing is that there is no reward in doing this. No heavenly reward and you don't even get paid for supporting these doctrines.
What is the point. It is a waste of everyone's time to twist scriptures to mean something else.
Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,05:18) Trinitarians say that mighty el is tantamount to Almighty God and Oneness say the same thing but also tack on that Jesus is the Father.
Well t8Then you must also accuse Isaiah of calling Jesus the Mighty God and YHVH in the same breath.
Was Isaiah an idiot for giving the same divine title to Jesus as YHVH?
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God, (el gibbowr)” The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the “mighty God (el gibbowr)”. Isa 10:21
Can you give us an example anywhere in scripture where the divine title 'Mighty God” was prophesied or given to any other being?
It would be blasphemy for a Hebrew to ascribe a divine title to anyone but God!
WJ
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ June 23 2011,00:37) T8………Lets be honest there is hardly any difference between Preexistences and Trinitarians
Very narrow minded of you gene.Trinitarians believe that three persons are God. That is primarily what defines the Trinity doctrine.
Preexistence is believed by most Christians whether they are Trinitarian or not. Even many cults believe it.
Saying that pre-existence is tantamount to the Trinity Doctrine is like saying that believing in Jesus as the messiah equals Islam.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,03:12) Well t8 Then you must also accuse Isaiah of calling Jesus the Mighty God and YHVH in the same breath.
Was Isaiah an idiot for giving the same divine title to Jesus as YHVH?
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God, (el gibbowr)” The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6
The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the “mighty God (el gibbowr)”. Isa 10:21
Can you give us an example anywhere in scripture where the divine title 'Mighty God” was prophesied or given to any other being?
It would be blasphemy for a Hebrew to ascribe a divine title to anyone but God!
WJ
Thanks WJ for another live example.First off, if Jesus is the Almighty God in this verse then without bias you need to also include him as the Heavenly Father.
So you are obviously aware that the term everlasting Father doesn't equal Heavenly Father, but then your bias kicks in (as expected) and mighty god becomes Almighty God. See the inconsistency now? If you are going to apply a rule, then use it fairly.
For the record, Abraham is the father and Jesus being the everlasting father means he is greater than Abraham. Likewise, angels are called elohim, and we know that there is one who is mightier than all the elohim, and that is Jesus. He is the mighty one. For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son”.
But he is NOT the Heavenly Father nor the Almighty God.
So there you have it. I untwisted it for you. Now we wait to see a live demonstration of you twisting it back again using your bias as the main reasoning.
Let's see if my prediction comes true.Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,16:40) But he is NOT the Heavenly Father nor the Almighty God.
Wrong!Jesus has all authority and power and all things are in his hands and he is the source of all things to the creation!
That makes Jesus “Almighty” and “Sovereign” and to all the creation he is God!
You see the inconsistency is with you because Isaiah calls Jesus the “Mighty God” and in the next chapter YHVH the “Mighty God”, so if you say that Jesus in Isa 9:6 is not the “Almighty God” then how can you say YHVH in Isa 10:21 is the “Almighty God” when both passages are identical?
That is inconsistent!
WJ
Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,16:56) First question. Is Jesus the Heavenly Father according to this verse?
t8It doesn't say “heavenly father” does it?
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 23 2011,15:50) Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,16:40) But he is NOT the Heavenly Father nor the Almighty God.
Wrong!Jesus has all authority and power and all things are in his hands and he is the source of all things to the creation!
That makes Jesus “Almighty” and “Sovereign” and to all the creation he is God!
You see the inconsistency is with you because Isaiah calls Jesus the “Mighty God” and in the next chapter YHVH the “Mighty God”, so if you say that Jesus in Isa 9:6 is not the “Almighty God” then how can you say YHVH in Isa 10:21 is the “Almighty God” when both passages are identical?
That is inconsistent!
WJ
WJPhil 2:9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
Phil 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
Phil 2:11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.WHO EXALTED CHRIST ?
Pierre
Quote (t8 @ June 22 2011,16:57) After that question, can you give me the exact verse where YHWH is the mighty God?
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, “The mighty God, (el gibbowr)” The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:6The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the “mighty God (el gibbowr)”. Isa 10:21
Thou shewest lovingkindness unto thousands, and recompensest the iniquity of the fathers into the bosom of their children after them: the Great, the ”Mighty God, ((el gibbowr)” the LORD of hosts, is his name, Jer 32:18
Where is your consistency in interpreting these verses t8?
WJ
Quote (kerwin @ June 21 2011,22:17) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 22 2011,08:47)
Thank you Gene for this one:Revelation 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”Non-preexister: This really means that Jesus was FROM the Root of David.
But it doesn't say “FROM” the Root of David, does it? Also, it would already be abundantly clear that someone who was FROM the Root of David would be a branch, or “offspring” of David, right? So why add the words “AND Offspring” to the sentence? It would be like Jesus saying, “I am the Offspring AND the Offspring of David”.
This is just another of many cases where people have to add their own words into the scriptures to make those scriptures teach what they WANT them to teach.
My doctrine doesn't require this this kind of nonsense.
What?It does say root of David as well as saying the offspring of David.
Hi Kerwin,You are correct that it DOES say “Root of David”. But it does not say “FROM the Root of David”, as Gene claims.
My point is that if it DID say “FROM the Root of David”, those words alone would already tell us that Jesus was the Offspring of David, right? So Jesus saying, “AND Offspring” would be redundant, right?
Do you get it? If “FROM the Root of David” already means that Jesus is the Offspring of David, then Jesus would have been saying, “I am the Offspring AND the Offspring of David”. And that makes no sense, right?
So Gene is wrong that “Root of David” means “FROM the Root of David”, right?
So Kerwin, if “Offspring” means offspring, then what do you suppose “ROOT of David” means? The word “AND” signifies that Jesus is TWO different things in relationship to David. One of those things is “Offspring”, the other is “Root”. And if the “Offspring” part means that Jesus came AFTER David, what do you suppose the “Root” part means?
peace,
mikeKerwin ……….. You have it right, Root (of) a person (MEANS) a decedent from that person.. The word Root and Offspring is in the same sentence and subject matter of what Jesus was saying. Only in bizarre world do people separate it to mean something it is not saying. The word ROOT is used to show linage , just as Offs[ring is. King Davis came out of the Root of Jesse the same as Jesus also did through David he is considered also a root of Jesse.
peace and lvoe to you and yours……………………………..gene
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