- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Ha……a dose of your own medicine brothers and sisters! It doesn't taste very good, does it?
In that you both are feeling judged as to how you are keeping the Sabbath. Join the club! Many of us are feeling judged by you both. It doesn't feel very good to be judged by the Law, and yet that is what you are doing here by telling me and everyone else HOW and WHEN to keep God's Day. Yet, you cannot do it; that is, keep it according to scripture. I may be all wet, but it seems that you would like to impose the 4th Commandment, however, you would like to keep it according to how you wish.
I wonder if the apostles ever went riding in the country on their camels on the Sabbath? They certainly had the freedom to do so after all, right? As far as scripture is concerned, the apostles and even Paul kept the Sabbath by the Commandment regulations (other than when they were picking wheat). Do we see other times in scripture where early Christians observed the DAY but did so in a “spiritual” manner?
You cannot judge your brothers and sisters according to which DAY they observe according to the Commandments if you are not willing to keep the DAY according to the Commandments.
Again, I ask, where is it written that you may only keep half of a Commandment? Keeping the correct day is fine, but if you keep that day according to your pleasures, how are you keeping the Commandment completely? And if you are not keeping the Commandment completely – you are not keeping it at all!
These are just my observations about what the Word is saying and what I am hearing from you both (Ken and Laurel). You both have much more study on these topics than I do. But I see a contradiction here and I'm pointing it out. So far you have not enlightened me with the knowledge of why you may only keep a Commandment half way.
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 19 2007,07:49) There is a ball game on that I would want to watch but I'm not. I could record it but I'm not!
You may not be watching the ball game, but you are here posting on HeavenNet – which I'm sure is a pleasurable thing to do for you, maybe even a hobby of sorts? I don't know, however, it is certainly not a Sabbath service or meditation on the scriptures.Whatever, brother, I'm really not trying to judge you (as it may appear), what I'm really trying to do is point out the error in your teaching of the Sabbath. You may keep the correct Day (which is your beef), but if you don't keep the Day as God Commands….doesn't it lose it's power? Does it “count” that you are obeying the Commandment if only half of it is obeyed? Can you only tell a half-lie, for instance? How about a half-murder? You get my point.
Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2007,13:48) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 19 2007,07:49) There is a ball game on that I would want to watch but I'm not. I could record it but I'm not!
You may not be watching the ball game, but you are here posting on HeavenNet – which I'm sure is a pleasurable thing to do for you, maybe even a hobby of sorts? I don't know, however, it is certainly not a Sabbath service or meditation on the scriptures.Whatever, brother, I'm really not trying to judge you (as it may appear), what I'm really trying to do is point out the error in your teaching of the Sabbath. You may keep the correct Day (which is your beef), but if you don't keep the Day as God Commands….doesn't it lose it's power? Does it “count” that you are obeying the Commandment if only half of it is obeyed? Can you only tell a half-lie, for instance? How about a half-murder? You get my point.
You see you don't know what you are even talking about by your own admission. It's good to do good on the Sabbath.As I said you didn't and probably still don't KNOW what day the Sabbath is on but you are ready to teach against it.
Are you ready to keep the Ten commandments according to the Letter? As you say I am in error?
You can judge all you want it means nothing. When I say you don't judge me that's what I meant. You can't judge how I keep the Sabbath when you don't keep it at all!
Gees talk about you with a log in your eye trying to pick a speck out of mine.
But as I said I keep the Sabbath according to the Spirit as I do the other nine.
How do you keep the TEN Commandments? By the letter as you say I should keep the Sabbath?
Or do you keep TEN?
IHN&L,
Ken
Not3,
Why do you babble? Why do you poke fun at others? Why do you speak about things you do not practice? And especially why do you judge?You can make laughing faces all day long, you will not be laughing in the end.
I'm going to change this topic as I'm sure N31 will be responding
Besides we can keep all the Sabbath….Questions (?) in one area instead all over the place I'm sure heaven is getting inpatient and I wouldn't blame him… thanks heaven.
We can always get back to the original topic,,as is one, but if these folks can't get past believing on the 10 commandments, they would never admit to celebrating Tammuz, the anti-messiah's birth on Dec. 25th. I'm sure they celebrate the birth of our Messiah who was actually born durring the Feast of Tabernacles, but that is done away with isn't it? And I'm sure lent is for YHWH too even though the only time we see a prolonged fast is the 40 days of weeping for Tammuz in Scripture.
Too much confusion, so little time.
Somehow the word Christmas was deleted from my above quote it should read , the original topic, Christmas,…
I have started a new thread called Sabbath, When & How? in the “Scripture & Biblical Doctrine” section. Please redirect your responses on Sabbath there so this thread can be returned to the original topic, celebrating birthdays.
Thanks!
And that's just the Birthday cake…
You will find pagan roots under every tradition if you look hard enough..
Birthdays come and go, sometimes there's a celebration, sometimes no one remembers but you..and that can be sad.
I personally don't celebrate my birthday outwardly but on my 30th, 40th and 50th my family wanted a celebration, birthdays like funerals can reconnect people again so I don't think there's a problem with acknowledging birthdays…except when it comes to blowing out the candles and everyone shouts..HIP HIP HOORAY..
I read somewhere that this is what was shouted from the people watching the Lions kill the Christians..Oops
I posted without putting the post I was responding too in a box..anyway I've come in at the end again forgive..but I read on from my post and what started out as a reasonable topic ending up somewhere else, this is happening so often and I find it hard to follow, are we still talking about birthday's?Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 19 2007,14:11) Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 19 2007,13:48) Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 19 2007,07:49) There is a ball game on that I would want to watch but I'm not. I could record it but I'm not!
You may not be watching the ball game, but you are here posting on HeavenNet – which I'm sure is a pleasurable thing to do for you, maybe even a hobby of sorts? I don't know, however, it is certainly not a Sabbath service or meditation on the scriptures.Whatever, brother, I'm really not trying to judge you (as it may appear), what I'm really trying to do is point out the error in your teaching of the Sabbath. You may keep the correct Day (which is your beef), but if you don't keep the Day as God Commands….doesn't it lose it's power? Does it “count” that you are obeying the Commandment if only half of it is obeyed? Can you only tell a half-lie, for instance? How about a half-murder? You get my point.
You see you don't know what you are even talking about by your own admission. It's good to do good on the Sabbath.As I said you didn't and probably still don't KNOW what day the Sabbath is on but you are ready to teach against it.
Are you ready to keep the Ten commandments according to the Letter? As you say I am in error?
You can judge all you want it means nothing. When I say you don't judge me that's what I meant. You can't judge how I keep the Sabbath when you don't keep it at all!
Gees talk about you with a log in your eye trying to pick a speck out of mine.
But as I said I keep the Sabbath according to the Spirit as I do the other nine.
How do you keep the TEN Commandments? By the letter as you say I should keep the Sabbath?
Or do you keep TEN?
IHN&L,
Ken
Ken,Settle down now…. You are missing the point I was trying to make. I'm really am not judging you, brother………I was merely pointing out contradictions in your adherence to the 4th Commandment. I respect your ideas and your convictions, Ken. I do. I was just “challenging” your thinking and ideas. Sometimes when that is challenged in someone, you see dust fly to the surface. That is what's happening here. I really am not trying to tell you what to do or how to do it.
Quote (Laurel @ Aug. 19 2007,14:17) Not3,
Why do you babble? Why do you poke fun at others? Why do you speak about things you do not practice? And especially why do you judge?You can make laughing faces all day long, you will not be laughing in the end.
Again, Sis, I was merely trying to challenge your theories and teachings……apparently I struck a chord in you and Ken that sent you both claiming, “Judgement!” But you must look at your posts and conversations with others and realize that when you are preaching Sabbath's and Feasts and say to other's that if they do not keep them as you do —- they are wrong! or they do not know the meatier things of God, you have to be prepared for some of that to come back to you.There is a saying: Some can dish it out, but they cannot take it.
Ken and Laurel, I am not trying to be mean-spirited (hopefully you both know me better than that by now), however, I do feel that I have the right to challenge your beliefs. When others challenge your beliefs, you come back with responses that seem self-righteous and heaped in false humility! But if someone dare challenge your teachings, all of a sudden they are cut off from the thread and deemed Judgemental. I believe that is called a double-standard and folks can see it for what it is. Whatever. I'm not into keeping score.
The point has been entirely missed……I love you both and have tremendous respect for both of you (even tho I am “babbling” apparently), but I do feel free to ask questions, quote scriptures, and challenge your teachings here. I'm sorry that you feel I do not have this right. You both do not have an exclusive corner market on the 10 Commandments and the adherence to them, I'm sorry. But God bless us all, right?
Quote (Debra @ Aug. 19 2007,17:37) except when it comes to blowing out the candles and everyone shouts..HIP HIP HOORAY..
I read somewhere that this is what was shouted from the people watching the Lions kill the Christians..
Debra…..you're kidding right?
Quote (kenrch @ Aug. 19 2007,14:23) I'm going to change this topic as I'm sure N31 will be responding Besides we can keep all the Sabbath….Questions (?) in one area instead all over the place I'm sure heaven is getting inpatient and I wouldn't blame him… thanks heaven.
This cracks me up, I'm sorry. Whenever a topic gets too hot for certain people, they are all of a sudden really concerned about “staying on topic” —- so many of the threads here go from the original topic to all over the board for pages and pages and no one thinks twice.But, OK. Let's stay on topic.
I LOVE BIRTHDAYS! I love the cake, candles, presents and blessings from the LORD. I love the fact that I can praise God for one more year and that I was given the opportunity to live for him. I REJOICE every year on my birthday because God gave me my original birthday. I was foreknown and planned. God saw me being formed before I was born. He witnessed my birth and was glad. My parents rejoiced and gave me birthday parties to celebrate the day I joined their lives! Everyone is glad that I am alive and loves to celebrate with me every year.
I see nowhere in scripture that forbids us to celebrate birthdays. If one chooses not to celebrate it is for personal preference only – it has nothing to do with being more righteous or more spiritual. And if you know something is pagen surrounding birthday celebrations, then by all means don't participate in it. But enjoy everything else! God gives us our days and our breath…….it's good to be happy that you are growing older year by year – some do not get that privilege.
Not3 : I agree with you on the birthdays, but if you were to find out that the candles on the cake were originated from a PAGAN practiced and common people adopted the pagan custom do you think JESUS would use the candles on the cake?
Quote (elaine1809 @ Aug. 20 2007,01:55) Not3 : I agree with you on the birthdays, but if you were to find out that the candles on the cake were originated from a PAGAN practiced and common people adopted the pagan custom do you think JESUS would use the candles on the cake?
Hi Elaine:Relative to the candles, I believe what is important is what do the candles on the cake mean to you and to your children and not where the practice of using them originated. Candles are used for a variety of purposes.
We do want to gruard against being materialistic and lose sight of our purpose as Christians, and that is that we glorify God through the life that we live. We do not want to become idolators. God has promised to give us what we need and even things that we enjoy when we ask believing.
We worship God with thanksgiving and not the cake or the candles or the tree or any such thing.
Jesus states:
Quote John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly. There is no need to put ourselves into bondage with matters such as these.
God Bless
Quote (elaine1809 @ Aug. 20 2007,01:55) Not3 : I agree with you on the birthdays, but if you were to find out that the candles on the cake were originated from a PAGAN practiced and common people adopted the pagan custom do you think JESUS would use the candles on the cake?
Hi Elaine,I've been enjoying your posts and your questions.
In 1 Corinthians, chapter 8, Paul tells us that indeed there are “gods, idols, and lords” in the world, but they are really nothing at all. Because for us there is One God, who is the Father of us all.
Paul also instructs us that we may eat anything that is sacrificed to a so-called “idol” because there is no such thing. However, if it causes someone to stumble and fall because of our freedom in Christ, then this is sin.
So in answer to your question, if I found out for certain that the use of candles on a birthday cake originated with pagen worship AND someone else at my birthday party was aware of this same truth, AND I knew it would cause them to stumble…..I would not blow out the candles! Otherwise, I am free to enjoy the candles on my cake even though they originated from pagen origins. This is my understanding.
Quote (942767 @ Aug. 20 2007,06:07) There is no need to put ourselves into bondage with matters such as these.
Amen, brother!Questions:
1. Why do you think the early Christians refused to celebrate birthdays (including Jesus birthday)? There is no record of Christians celebrating Jesus birth for hundreds of years. Why did they refuse to do so? (I can provide a string of quotes saying they didn't, if you like, showing that the early Christians regarded them as a practice for the pagans) They didn't just neglect to do so. They purposefully avoided celebrating them. My question to you: WHY? Why do you think? Please think about that seriously. And DO YOU THINK THEIR REASONS ARE UNIMPORTANT? WHERE THE EARLIEST CHRISTIANS WRONG IN THEIR THINKING? IF SO, WHY?
2. “ALL scripture is …. beneficial for teaching, for setting things straight.” (2 tim 3:16,17)
My second question to you: Why do the only two accounts of birthdays in the Bible (Pharoah and Herod) both involve bloodshed of God's servants? If all scripture including those scriptures are beneficial for teaching, what do we learn from them? Why does the Bible present birthdays in such a negative light? It is not just a coincidence that the only birthdays mentioned involved bloodshed. Looking at history, we see the same. So my question to you is: If the Bible presents birthdays this way, why disregard it? Are those accounts not part of the “all scripture” that is beneficial for setting things straight?
As well, if the very day of Jesus' birth is deliberately left out of the Bible, doesn't that fact tell us something? If birthdays should be celebrated, why did God leave the date of His own Son's birth out of Holy Scripture?3. Yes, lots of things are pagan. Lots of things have idolatrous roots. Birthdays are one of them. The birthday observance was common in many polytheistic cultures. Idolatrous rites were performed in honor of the patron god of each particular birthday, and birthdays of mythical gods like Saturn and Apollo were celebrated.
If you think the quotes are wrong and the customs or origins are wrong, I ask you why the birthday cake? Why the candles? Find a source that explains it in another way.
Over and over again in the references that I am looking at, I see that the early Christians didn't celebrate birthdays because of associating it with idolatry. Over and over again I see this. The Bible clearly condemns idolatry. (1 cor 6:9,10; Eph 5:5)
My question to you is: HAS GOD’S MEMORY FADED? WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF SUCH THINGS? God saw first hand where this celebration came from the the trail of blood that followed it. Is it just “innocent fun” to God? What do you think?4. There is no scripture that says: “Birthdays are a no no.” Yet, the earliest Christians (no doubt discerning Biblical principles and understanding the history of birthdays) did not seem divided on this. It didn't seem to be a matter of conscience to them, but it seemed clearly wrong, something they all avoided, as a group. Other than the apostate thinking that was prophesied, what has changed?
Quote I know that quite a few believer's on this site would condemn me for celebrating [birthdays, etc], but I have found peace with God about this. I think that there are times when you can become way too legalistic about life. –Not3in1
My question to you Not3 is simply this: Were the earliest Christians “way too legalistic” on this?
“The early Christians did not celebrate His [Christ’s] birth because they considered the celebration of anyone’s birth to be a pagan custom.”–World Book Encyclopedia, Vol. 3, p. 416.
All the references will say the same: The earliest Christians refused to take part in birthday celebrations. It wasn't until 300 years later that this became acceptable to Christendom.
So I would really like an answer to my question. Were they wrong? Were they “way too legalistic”? Or, did they recognize the origins of this custom and apply godly principles?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
