- This topic is empty.
- Posts
“I Am” before Abraham in the resurrection. Christ did not pre-exit. Abraham longed to see that day of his resurrection according to the promises. The Messiah is the resurrection and the beginning of the new creation.
Nick wrote:
There is a division between soul and spirit as Heb 4:12 states.
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-2.htm
http://www.dtl.org/misc/treatise/soul-spirit-1.htm
From the article above:
Heb 4:12: “The NGSB comments on this verse: division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow. Though some find here support for the view that a human being is basically a trichotomy consisting of body, soul, and spirit, the context is against it. It stresses the power of God’s word to enter the deepest recesses of a person’s being, not a sort of division into constitute parts. Also, if the idea of division were intended, we would expect the author to say “bone and marrow” instead of “joints and marrow.”(17)
Reverend Kim Riddlebarger arrives at a similar conclusion; but he approaches the verse from a different angle:
In Hebrews 4:12, is its argued that the author makes a clear division between soul and spirit, implying that they cannot be synonymous. But John Murray contends that the verb used here – translated as “dividing” in the NIV – is never used elsewhere in Scripture in the sense of distinguishing between two different things, but is always used when distributing and dividing up the various aspects of the same thing (see Heb 2:4; Lk 11:17-18; Mt 27:35; Jn 19:24).(21) The point is not that the Word separates two distinct things – soul from spirit – but that “the Word of God judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart” (Heb 4:12). The Word does not divide soul from spirit, as though these were two distinct entities, but the Word does divide soul and spirit in the sense of penetrating our inner most parts.(22) “Nick continued to write:
At death the spirit returns to God (Ecc 12:7)…
Me:
Ecc 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. 19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath (soul); so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. 20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
Me: Notice in verse 19 that whatever befalls men befalleth beasts, and that a man has no preeminence over a beast at the time of death. So if you think that man has a spirit that is separate from his soul, and goes into heaven, so does any beasts’ spirit go into heaven. But that is not what happens. Verse 18 shows that men are like beasts that have death in their flesh, and so they die the same way, exactly the same way. But something occurred after Christ’s ascension into heaven.
Young’s Literal Translation:
Acts 2:31 having foreseen, he did speak concerning the rising again of the Christ, that his soul was not left to hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.
Me: So what happened to Christ’s spirit that would be something that does not befall beasts? Christ did not have death in his flesh. He did not have to die. But he became death and thus a sin offering for us (2 Cor 5:21). So he died the same way as men did before his glorification. He does not have both a human soul and a human spirit. Neither do we. He was made in every way like us except there was no death in his flesh, and thus no sin. It is death that causes us to sin.
Young’s Literal Translation
Who knoweth the spirit of the sons of man that is going up on high, and the spirit of the beast that is going down below to the earth?John 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down — the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
Luke 23:46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. (soul)” When he had said this, he breathed his last.
Me: Christ’s soul is the first one that had his soul (spirit) that was in hell (hades: the grave) resurrected into heaven after his resurrection from the dead. He had committed his spirit (soul) to his father. The latter part of John 3:13 can be shown what that means in another post. It does not mean that Christ preexisted as God Almighty. God raised Christ from the dead.
Job 14:13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath (crucifixion is the correct translation) be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
Me: wrath cannot mean The Day of the LORD, for the saints are already resurrected with him and are then with him. So wrath here means crucifixion.
Ecc 12:6 Or ever the silver cord (umbilical cord to life) be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (holy spirit) shall return unto God who gave it.
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? 27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living:
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 8 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Me: Mark 12:26 is speaking of a resurrection into life. But when does this occur? Prior to that, no one had any consciousness. Their spirits (souls) went back to the earth like the rest of the animal kingdom (Gen 4:10, Lev 17:11).
John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour (time) is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
2 Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
2 Cor 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Me: This is a vision of a man whose spirit was resurrected into heaven—whether he was dead or still alive, Paul could not tell, for it must have been powerful.
Nick continued to write:
At death the spirit returns to God (Ecc 12:7 but not the soul which sleeps in Christ (1 Thes 4:13) or awaits judgment (Rev 20:11).
Me:
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (G2837) in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep (G2837).
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest ( G373) yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Comment: The souls or them that rest in Christ are in heaven. The souls of them that are not in Christ rest in the earth. 1 Thes 4:14 pertains to the first resurrection when new bodies will be given to those souls in heaven and to those saints that remain on the earth at that time.
Rest (G373) in Rev 6:9 means I make to rest, give rest to, rest, take my ease. It does not mean death at all.
Asleep in 1 Thes 4:14: (G2837) One definition is still, quiet, calm and this would coincide with (G373) and not contradict the scriptures. The definition of death in 1 Thes 4:14 would contradict rest in Rev 6:9.
Nick wrote:
We are bonded to the soul of Christ? These sort of ideas to not spring from scripture. Do not go beyond Phil 2:9 as Gnosticism springs from the imaginations of men.
Me: It does spring from scripture. I have quoted you all the scriptures notable.
John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me (Christ), and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly (heart) shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet ____; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
Ezk 36:26 A new heart (of Christ) also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Me: one more:
John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
Nick wrote:
The soul is the life force of all creation? You have mention Ecc 3:19 but the life force is not mentioned.
Me:
Ecc 3:19 (NASB) For the fate of the sons of men and the fate of beasts is the same. As one dies so dies the other; indeed, they all have the same breath (H 7307) and there is no advantage for man over beast, for all is vanity. All go to the same place. All came from the dust and all return to the dust.
Rauch: Heb 7307 Definition: breath, wind, spirit
John 6:63 The Spirit gives life…
Gen 2:6 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Me: The body without the soul is dead. The body with the soul is alive (James 2:26). So soul and spirit as it pertains to humans are the same.
We need the Spirit to understand scripture. The Spirit doesn’t disguise truth by saying the opposite, the Spirit speaks the truth. Here is the truth that many here reject.
to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
… in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth
“I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”
“…out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
So much truth in these scriptures, but also many deniers who deny. We are Believers who believe this. What are you? Believer or Denier?
That man is a spirit, soul, and body is a trinitarian concept, that is man is made in the image of God who is a trinity. That trinity is correspondently, God the Father, God the son, and God the holy spirit–three different parts yet one. Not true.
T8…who is the we you speak of, it’s only you, and some trinitarians who post here that believe that.
TC…what i believe is that a living soul is simply a flesh body that has the breath of life in it, that at least is what Gen 2:6 says. I also believe there is a spirit in man.
Job 32:8…there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty gives them understanding.
Job 3414-15…if he set his heart: upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; all dlesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto the dust.
I think the very word spirit needs to be better understood by all. What do you think spirit itself is?
Peace and love to you and yours. ……gene
T8….As far as the word “before” goes, what makes you think that means “existed as a being”, of some kind, you have no proof thats what Jesus was referring to. The jews of that day believed their connection with Abraham was their greatest tie to GOD, JESUS WAS JUST TELLING THEM HE WAS BEFORE ABRAHAM “IN IMPORTANCE”.
IF JESUS WANTED THEM TO BELIEVE HE WAS ALIVE BEFORE ABRAHAM, HE WOULD NOT HAVE USED THAT LANGUAGE , HE SIMPLY WOULD HAVE SAID , “I WAS ALIVE BEFORE ABRAHAM”.
Forcing text to say what it does not “specifically” say is bad form T8. You have yet to produce a single scripture where Jesus ever said he was alive before his berth on this earth.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
TC…I agree with you, the concept of a spirit, soul, body, is a trinitarian concept.
A soul is, according to Gen 2:7… a body made from the dust of the earth with the breath of life in him, and that is what constitutes a “Living Soul”. Nothing more, nothing less.
Many have added a lot to that, especially trinitarians and those who preach a soul is still alive after it dies, pagan mystery religious ideas has deeply effected some peoples minds.
Peace and love to you and yours. …..gene
Hi TC,
Not trinitarian nonsense but scriptural truth
1thess.5.23
Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you entirely and may your spirit, soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus. Faithful is He who calls you and He will also bring it to pass.
Hi Ed and t8,
You think the Spirit of Christ is the spirit of the man, Jesus?
Then what was his human spirit doing in the prophets?
1Peter 1.10
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He prediction cited the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
The Holy Spirit of anointing was in the anointed men of God.
Hi TC,
I do not read long treatises written by theological experts so if you can tell us yourself from scripture it would be better.
We do not follow theologians and they will not be there to help us when we meet the Lord.
Be brave, seek and find truth for yourself I suggest.
Hi TC,
Of course the BREATH of God is not the SPIRIT of God.
Men and animals were not born of the Spirit of God.
And you forgot to include Eccl 3.21 in your quote when you compared the fate of animals and men.
Hi TC,
God chooses to define man in two ways.
He was made in the image of God by the breath of God-inner man.
But remember man that thou art dust and unto dust and unto dust thou shalt return.-outer man.
Outer man has no future as flesh cannot enter the kingdom so is replaced by the new body.
The human spirit returns to God Who gave it.
Salvation of the soul is the goal.
Hi TC,
Do not complicate the simple meanings of scripture with Greek intellectualism.
Scripture is spiritual and not according to the understanding of men.
Hi TC,
I note your quotes from Gary Zeolla.
His site seems to focus on him, his health history, and his achievements including writing many books.
Is he established in the Lord?
Knowledge can be a vanity.
Gene Balthrop wrote
TC… What i believe is that a living soul is simply a flesh body that has the breath of life in it. This is at least what Gen 2:6 says. I also believe that there is a spirit in man.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath (H5397. neshamah) of life; and man became a living nephesh (H5315)
Me: Man became a living “nephesh”. One of the definitions of nephesh, as you can see below is “living being”, and not “living soul”. Also, soul (spirit) is also one of the definitions of nephesh and means mans spirit (soul) because nephesh addresses man. addresses spirit in John 3:8 and 6:63, but it is God’s spirit in these contexts.
H5397. neshamah)
Word Origin
from nasham
Definition
breath
NASB Translation
blast (2), breath (15), breathes (1), life (1), persons alive (1), spirit (2), who breathed (3) nepheshStrong’s Concordance
nephesh: a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion Original Word: נָ֫פֶשׁ
Part of Speech: Noun Feminine
Transliteration: nephesh
Phonetic Spelling: (neh’-fesh)
Short Definition: soulMe: Now look in any dictionary. The prevalent definition for soul is spirit.
Young’s Literal Translation
John 6:63 the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything…Me: It is the spirit that gives life. God breath in Adam the spirit of life. It was not the holy spirit, but an image of his spirit.
John 3: 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Young’s Literal Translation
Surely a spirit (breath) is in man, And the breath (spirit) of the Mighty One Doth cause them to understand.Me: This is another example of Hebrew parallelism. The spirit and soul of man are the same. God is spirit and does not have a soul (nephesh: spirit) of the body (nephesh).
Interlinear Bible for 1 Thes 5:23:
http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_thessalonians/5-23.htm
1 Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Me: spirit and soul are Hebrew parallelism. It means the same thing. Notice the two “ands” in the scriptures above. If spirit and soul were different components you would have only one “and” and be as below.
1 Thes 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Me: In the end, man has his own mind with the holy spirit from God and the soul from Christ as one spirit.
Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
Me: Everyone has their own minds, God, Christ and each man. That is what makes us all unique. All are bond by one spirit: the holy spirit with the soul of Christ in it. Thus God becomes one spirit with man. God’s mind is in heaven, his soul is omnipresent. God’s spirit from his mind is in Christ. Christ’s soul from his human mind is in God. And that one spirit is in our minds, because we die to our fleshly spirits (1 Cor 15:31). Our souls in us are evil (Jer 17:9).
Phil 2: Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. 8 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Me: “Let this mind be in you” means to be like minded. The bible does not state “let” this spirit be in you” because after one is baptized in the holy spirit, he dies with Christ). He then “has” the holy spirit.
Likewise, each has his own body, but is like Christ and have a similar body to his. It also figuratively means his temple or church.
Hi Nick,
You wrote:
Hi Ed and T8,
You think that the spirit of Christ is the spirit of the man, Jesus?
Then what was his human spirit doing in the prophets?
As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful search and inquiry, seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you (those who Peter is addressing):
John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Me: So, we are addressing the time of Christ and thereafter in which grace came. Grace came about because of the Messiah’s sacrifice.
1 Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ (holy spirit) which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Me: What was the spirit both inside of Christ and the prophets. It was the holy spirit (1 Peter 1:12). It wasn’t Christ’s spirit inside of the prophets, but the holy spirit. It wasn’t Christ’s spirit that was directing Christ’s words inside of him, but again the holy spirit.
1 Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves (prophets), but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Me: So the spirit of Christ in this case was the holy spirit, both in the prophets and in Christ. That doesn’t mean that Christ does not have a human spirit emanating from his human mind. His mind bond with his father’s through their respective spirits.
Nowhere in the OT do we find “the spirit of Christ”. The only other place where the spirit of Christ is found is below.
Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him (father) that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Me: Verse 9 confirms that the spirit of God is the spirit of Christ. There is one spirit. But the spirit of the mind of Christ is bonded as one with the holy spirit. Even though this aspect was not true in the OT, the spirit of Christ is still the spirit of God.
Nick..the soul “is” the living body. What part of Genesis 2:7, you are unable to understand. Forcing text to meet you speculations doesn’t work. Jesus was raised with his soul body and went up into the heavens with it. His body did not experience corruption ever, because he never sinned.
Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene
TC…..I completely agree with your post, Jesus had his own spirit AND SOUL”BODY”, just as we do, and we combined with the spirit of God and became one in spirit. This is exactly what happens to us when we recieve the Holy Spirit, from God the Father. Then we also become sons of the living God as Jesus is. It is one spirit of God, that is to be “IN ALL AND THROUGH ALL”.
Peace and love to you and yours. ….gene
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
