Beelzebub and demons

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2012,04:22)

Mike, The exercise was about testing what you believe.

And somehow, even with your odd translation, we still ended up with the same teaching, didn't we?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2012,08:49)

Mike……….We could say the same about Adam and EVE, So in your understanding were they Different then the rest of Us Human also as far as Human Being go.

Yes Gene,

Like Jesus, Adam and Eve were created without sin. All who came after them (except for Jesus) were born into sin.

But unlike Jesus, Adam and Eve could not say, “I came down from heaven”. They could not speak of the glory they had alongside God before the world began. And it was never claimed in scripture that God created all things through Adam and Eve.

So while Adam, Eve, and Jesus were all different than us, Jesus was different than us in many more ways.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2012,17:43)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 29 2012,17:33) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2012,04:22) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2012,06:38) Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 26 2012,18:21) Mike, My point is that the statements are the same. In other words, that whole thing was an exercise in futility for me, and the bottom line is that Phil 2 STILL teaches that Jesus was existing in the form of God before being made into the likeness of a human being? Mike, The excessive was about testing what you believe. K so you have become your fellow man judge do you think that you holding the sword by the handle and not by the blade T, It is written to test the spirit of what you hear and also to watch your own doctrine.  It is beneficial to test your teachings; whether you are taught how or do so by instinct.

K

first your doctrine as to be the truth if not it is useless,

and scriptures says to test all spirit TO SEE IF THEY ARE FROM GOD ' IT DOES NOT SAY THEY HAVE TO BE IN LINE WITH MODER OR ENCIEN GRAMMAR

AND IF YOU SAY THAT YOU ARE CHRIST DISCIPLE AND BELIEVE IN THE TRUE GOD THEN ALL YOUR TOUGHTS SHOULD BE IN ARMONY WITH THE SCRIPTURES AND SHOULS BE REFLECTING IN YOUR CORRECTIVE MIND AND WORDS

USSING A MEN MADE BOOK TO JUSTIFY GODS WRITTEN WORD WOULD PLACE GOD DEPENDABLE ON MEN FOR HIS TRUTH,

WAKE UP MY FRIEND

[kerwin]

T,

The situation is that your teachings about Sheol/Hades and Abaddon/Tartarus are not in line with Jesus'.

Jesus taught of a place of torment for those who died the first death.  From what I see you do not.  You call Gene on his mistaken belief that there is no demons while holding to your own untruth.  First remove the untruths from your own teachings and then you will see clearly to remove untruths from your brothers.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,06:33)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2012,04:22) Mike, The exercise was about testing what you believe. And somehow, even with your odd translation, we still ended up with the same teaching, didn't we?

Mike,

When you state that the definitions as given by certain experts are “odd” how do you think that makes you look.

I understand you work mostly on instinct rather than knowledge and therefore you see those that do not work as you do as “odd”.

Whether God has chosen that we work by instinct or knowledge the important thing is to test what we believe to make sure it comes from Jehovah.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2012,22:14)

T, The situation is that your teachings about Sheol/Hades and Abaddon/Tartarus are not in line with Jesus'. Jesus taught of a place of torment for those who died the first death.  From what I see you do not.  You call Gene on his mistaken belief that there is no demons while holding to your own untruth.  First remove the untruths from your own teachings and then you will see clearly to remove untruths from your brothers.

K

ok,then please show that Christ was teaching a place of torment after dead (first dead ,the dead of the flesh )

and please show scriptures,

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,11:38)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2012,08:49) Mike……….We could say the same about Adam and EVE, So in your understanding were they Different then the rest of Us Human also as far as Human Being go. Yes Gene, Like Jesus, Adam and Eve were created without sin.  All who came after them (except for Jesus) were born into sin. But unlike Jesus, Adam and Eve could not say, “I came down from heaven”.  They could not speak of the glory they had alongside God before the world began.  And it was never claimed in scripture that God created all things through Adam and Eve. So while Adam, Eve, and Jesus were all different than us, Jesus was different than us in many more ways.

Mike…………….My point is they and Jesus were “NO”  Different then we are. They WE Pure 100% Human Beings brought into existences in the flesh and it make “NO” difference how their DNA was constructed they Still were simply Human Beings, and that Includes Jesus also  Who over and over referenced himself as a SON Of MAN,.

And yes he was as we are Born into a world of SIN the same as we are, no one “IS BORN A SINNER”, MIKE.  He had to Master his own Will and temptations of sin Just as we have to Also. He did it with the Help of GOD'S Spirit, the same way we must also.  He had “NO” Advantage or Disadvantage Over Us He was and Is Identical to us in “EVERY” Way . What happened to him can “EQUALLY” Happen to Us We are Not one ounce inferior to Him in anyway As far as his Humanity is concerned .

Your View of Jesus is viewing Him different then we are, you not only try to Separate   Jesus from yourself but other also. Your work in this is a work of Separation.  Mike the sad part is you will get your wish in the End and be separated from Him if you do not repent of your false teachings of the Preexistence of Jesus.

Jesus was a Pure Human Being born into “EXISTENCE” as are all Human Beings ,No different then any other human being  and what God did and does for Him he can equally so do for all of us who seek him the same “WAY” Jesus did.

WE who see Jesus as a Human Being walk alongside Him Mike, we do not Separate Him from our own HUMAN IDENTITY , we recieve him as a Brother of ours in the House Hold of God, an elder Brother who “our” Father , his and ours, has appoint him as our elder brother, So we look to him as our Elder Brother, Not a GOD, “god” or demigod, or Angel of any kind But a “BROTHER” of OURS in the House Hold of God. The Father has put him in his place of Authority he now has and we respect that and give heed to his words as we do the Fathers words also.

But none of that make Jesus any   different a human being then we are in the House Hold of GOD We walk with and beside him, NOT “BENEATH” him as far as His humanity is concerned. The Father Loves us Just as Much as He loves Jesus or haven't you ever read that?

Mike trust me you Trinitarians and Preexistences and  JW's are all preachers of a “Religion” of “separation” of Jesus' Identity with all humanity and you shall “ALL” give an account of this unless you repent IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 29 2012,22:25)

Mike, When you state that the definitions as given by certain experts are “odd” how do you think that makes you look.

Once again, it WASN'T the definitions themselves that were “odd”, Kerwin. It was YOUR translation of the the teaching in Phil 2 that was “odd”. You'll NEVER see Phil 2 translated that way as long as you live, because the wording is odd and jumbled.

Anyway, the point remains that, even with your wording, the teaching remained the same. The teaching continues to be that Jesus WAS existing in the form of God before being made in the likeness of a human being.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 30 2012,09:38)

Mike…………….My point is they and Jesus were “NO”  Different then we are.

Yes Gene,

I already know what point you're trying to make.  And MY point is that YOUR point is wrong.  Adam, Eve, and Jesus WERE different than any of us.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 30 2012,22:14)

T, The situation is that your teachings about Sheol/Hades and Abaddon/Tartarus are not in line with Jesus'. Jesus taught of a place of torment for those who died the first death.  From what I see you do not.  You call Gene on his mistaken belief that there is no demons while holding to your own untruth.  First remove the untruths from your own teachings and then you will see clearly to remove untruths from your brothers.

K

Are trying to put your confusion on my back

First it is you that started to say non sense,not me,

You can say to me what you want but it will only stick if you prove it in scriptures,

So please do that,

If you can not do it then use wisdom and so if you do not know keep your mouth shut,or say so .

[terraricca]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2012,09:38)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,11:38) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2012,08:49) Mike……….We could say the same about Adam and EVE, So in your understanding were they Different then the rest of Us Human also as far as Human Being go. Yes Gene, Like Jesus, Adam and Eve were created without sin.  All who came after them (except for Jesus) were born into sin. But unlike Jesus, Adam and Eve could not say, “I came down from heaven”.  They could not speak of the glory they had alongside God before the world began.  And it was never claimed in scripture that God created all things through Adam and Eve. So while Adam, Eve, and Jesus were all different than us, Jesus was different than us in many more ways. Mike…………….My point is they and Jesus were “NO”  Different then we are. They WE Pure 100% Human Beings brought into existences in the flesh and it make “NO” difference how their DNA was constructed they Still were simply Human Beings, and that Includes Jesus also  Who over and over referenced himself as a SON Of MAN,. And yes he was as we are Born into a world of SIN the same as we are, no one “IS BORN A SINNER”, MIKE.  He had to Master his own Will and temptations of sin Just as we have to Also. He did it with the Help of GOD'S Spirit, the same way we must also.  He had “NO” Advantage or Disadvantage Over Us He was and Is Identical to us in “EVERY” Way . What happened to him can “EQUALLY” Happen to Us We are Not one ounce inferior to Him in anyway As far as his Humanity is concerned . Your View of Jesus is viewing Him different then we are, you not only try to Separate   Jesus from yourself but other also. Your work in this is a work of Separation.  Mike the sad part is you will get your wish in the End and be separated from Him if you do not repent of your false teachings of the Preexistence of Jesus. Jesus was a Pure Human Being born into “EXISTENCE” as are all Human Beings ,No different then any other human being  and what God did and does for Him he can equally so do for all of us who seek him the same “WAY” Jesus did. WE who see Jesus as a Human Being walk alongside Him Mike, we do not Separate Him from our own HUMAN IDENTITY , we recieve him as a Brother of ours in the House Hold of God, an elder Brother who “our” Father , his and ours, has appoint him as our elder brother, So we look to him as our Elder Brother, Not a GOD, “god” or demigod, or Angel of any kind But a “BROTHER” of OURS in the House Hold of God. The Father has put him in his place of Authority he now has and we respect that and give heed to his words as we do the Fathers words also. But none of that make Jesus any   different a human being then we are in the House Hold of GOD We walk with and beside him, NOT “BENEATH” him as far as His humanity is concerned. The Father Loves us Just as Much as He loves Jesus or haven't you ever read that? Mike trust me you Trinitarians and Preexistences and  JW's are all preachers of a “Religion” of “separation” of Jesus' Identity with all humanity and you shall “ALL” give an account of this unless you repent IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene

Gene

You can see it for yourself you have not quoted ONE single scripture to support your comment,

Why Because their are no scriptures that support your convictions

[kerwin]

T,

You give me too much credit.  What is true is true whether I convince you or not and what is untrue is untrue whether I convince you or not.

Jesus teaches of a rich but wicked man who went to a place of torment called Hades.  He instructs us that Lazarus went to a place of the dead that is also a place of comfort; which he called Abraham's bosom.  Except for the details Jesus was using a teaching common to the house of Israel, of that time, in order to make a point.

It is Jesus' teaching of the land(s) of the dead that is starting point; since we hold Jesus speaks the Word.

[terraricca]

Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 01 2012,03:26)

T, You give me too much credit.  What is true is true whether I convince you or not and what is untrue is untrue whether I convince you or not. Jesus teaches of a rich but wicked man who went to a place of torment called Hades.  He instructs us that Lazarus went to a place of the dead that is also a place of comfort; which he called Abraham's bosom.  Except for the details Jesus was using a teaching common to the house of Israel, of that time, in order to make a point. It is Jesus' teaching of the land(s) of the dead that is starting point; since we hold Jesus speaks the Word.

k

SHOW SCRIPTURES WITHIN YOUR QUOTE;

i KNOW THAT WHAT YOU SAY IS NOT TRUE AND YOU ALSO KNOW ,SO YOU DO NOT SHOW SCRIPTURES THAT WOULD PROVE YOU WRONG .

this is not my way friend if you prove me wrong ,I would be pleased because I would have learn something new ,

but you are defending your ego ,and so can not learn anything

[GeneBalthrop]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 31 2012,14:30)

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2012,09:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2012,11:38) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 29 2012,08:49) Mike……….We could say the same about Adam and EVE, So in your understanding were they Different then the rest of Us Human also as far as Human Being go. Yes Gene, Like Jesus, Adam and Eve were created without sin.  All who came after them (except for Jesus) were born into sin. But unlike Jesus, Adam and Eve could not say, “I came down from heaven”.  They could not speak of the glory they had alongside God before the world began.  And it was never claimed in scripture that God created all things through Adam and Eve. So while Adam, Eve, and Jesus were all different than us, Jesus was different than us in many more ways. Mike…………….My point is they and Jesus were “NO”  Different then we are. They WE Pure 100% Human Beings brought into existences in the flesh and it make “NO” difference how their DNA was constructed they Still were simply Human Beings, and that Includes Jesus also  Who over and over referenced himself as a SON Of MAN,. And yes he was as we are Born into a world of SIN the same as we are, no one “IS BORN A SINNER”, MIKE.  He had to Master his own Will and temptations of sin Just as we have to Also. He did it with the Help of GOD'S Spirit, the same way we must also.  He had “NO” Advantage or Disadvantage Over Us He was and Is Identical to us in “EVERY” Way . What happened to him can “EQUALLY” Happen to Us We are Not one ounce inferior to Him in anyway As far as his Humanity is concerned . Your View of Jesus is viewing Him different then we are, you not only try to Separate   Jesus from yourself but other also. Your work in this is a work of Separation.  Mike the sad part is you will get your wish in the End and be separated from Him if you do not repent of your false teachings of the Preexistence of Jesus. Jesus was a Pure Human Being born into “EXISTENCE” as are all Human Beings ,No different then any other human being  and what God did and does for Him he can equally so do for all of us who seek him the same “WAY” Jesus did. WE who see Jesus as a Human Being walk alongside Him Mike, we do not Separate Him from our own HUMAN IDENTITY , we recieve him as a Brother of ours in the House Hold of God, an elder Brother who “our” Father , his and ours, has appoint him as our elder brother, So we look to him as our Elder Brother, Not a GOD, “god” or demigod, or Angel of any kind But a “BROTHER” of OURS in the House Hold of God. The Father has put him in his place of Authority he now has and we respect that and give heed to his words as we do the Fathers words also. But none of that make Jesus any   different a human being then we are in the House Hold of GOD We walk with and beside him, NOT “BENEATH” him as far as His humanity is concerned. The Father Loves us Just as Much as He loves Jesus or haven't you ever read that? Mike trust me you Trinitarians and Preexistences and  JW's are all preachers of a “Religion” of “separation” of Jesus' Identity with all humanity and you shall “ALL” give an account of this unless you repent IMO peace and love to you and yours…………………………………….gene Gene You can see it for yourself you have not quoted ONE single scripture to support your comment, Why Because their are no scriptures that support your convictions

Terricca………..Do you want me to quote the 80 or so places where Jesus is refereed to himself as a SON of Man, or where it is stated He would come from the Roots of Jess, from the seed of a women, and where he said He was the Offspring of Kind David, or how about where Moses and the other Prophets said He would come from, and on and on where he is portrayed in many, many, many, many scriptures, where and who he would come into existence . Not one scripture says He would Be “MORPHED from any Past Existing Form of Being , Not even ONE>

Are you so ignorant that you lack the knowledge of all those scriptures that state thee FACTS>  So pick a number  of places you want me quoted to you, that hasn't been quoted over and over here many many times and i will quote them again for you.

You have around 100 or so places to chose form.  Bottom Line is Pierre you and Mike and all Trinitarians and Preexistence and JW”S deny Jesus Human Origins and Preach a False Jesus and do a work of Separating Jesus form his human brothers and sisters and that is Antichrist and anti God also.

You as well as they have Made Jesus an Object of worship and corrupted His Image as a Human Being “EXACTLY” as WE ARE. You Trinitarians and Preexistences  have turned the IMAGE of JESUS into the “IMAGE” of A Man of SIN  and what is even worse you have no IDEA “HOW” your doing it>

peace and love to you and yours Pierre…………………………….gene

[kerwin]

T,

You ask me to reveal Scriptures to you but you do not believe them; for if you did then you would not need them revealed to you as you would already know them.  

My time is limited and I do not see why I use what time I have on going over something that the other person should already know.  Read the parable of the rich man and Lazarus; as my words were based on what Jesus taught about the land of the dead in it.  Look into it and study it.  When you have done so then we will have a point to start a conversation from.  If you have done so then why did you not address Jesus' words instead of asking me for what you already have?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 31 2012,03:26)

Jesus teaches of a rich but wicked man who went to a place of torment called Hades.

Kerwin,

Do you suppose the souls in Hades have flesh bodies?

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Aug. 31 2012,09:26)

…….it is stated He would come from the Roots of Jess……

Correct Gene. Isaiah 11:1 teaches that Jesus is the shoot that comes from the roots of Jesse.

But Isaiah 11:10 and Romans 15:12 teach that Jesus is the Root OF Jesse.

Why do you only accept ONE of those two teachings?

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2012,06:02)

Quote (kerwin @ Aug. 31 2012,03:26) Jesus teaches of a rich but wicked man who went to a place of torment called Hades. Kerwin, Do you suppose the souls in Hades have flesh bodies?

Mike,

I suppose souls can be tormented, 2 Peter 2:8, and comforted Psalms 77:2, 94:19, Lamentations 1:16.

The water and flame seem symbolic though.

[mikeboll64]

If the water and flames are symbolic, then perhaps the entire parable is symbolic.

[kerwin]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 01 2012,07:25)

If the water and flames are symbolic, then perhaps the entire parable is symbolic.

Mike,

Souls can indeed be comforted or tormented and so that part is not symbolic.

Scriptures tells us that Samuel's soul spoke when summoned by the witch and so that part is not symbolic though that particular conversation may not have literally occurred.

There are flames that destroy a soul and therefore there may also be flames that torment it; as well as water to comfort it.

[Author]

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