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in 1906 there started a revivle live no other in recorded american history. it ended in 1910 on azusa st in la california. broken bones were healed, blind eyes were open. the shekinah glory og God was so strong it was like a fog. many people got the baptism of the HOLY GHOST for the first time. it was a site to see for those there. a newspaper article said will this last? only time will tell. im here to tell you that bout 100 yrs later it's still hapening today. i go to a church that can trace there roots to azusa street but more important than that we go to Jesus. God still moves mightly today.
God does nothing that has no alternative explanation.
If people regrew limbs there would be something to be amazed by.
Nothing like that ever happens. Such healing is the vision of the religiously deluded.
Stuart
if God never grew limbs back then what about the one in the bible whose ear was cut off and Jesus put it back on ?
IF MIRICLES ARE A DELUSION THRN THE REST OF THE BIBLE WOULD HAVE TO BE A LIE, BUT JESUS HAD TOO MANY WITNESSES FOR IT TO BE A LIE
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 03 2009,23:47) if God never grew limbs back then what about the one in the bible whose ear was cut off and Jesus put it back on ?
Double-sided tape is pretty strong stuff.Stuart
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 04 2009,01:08) IF MIRICLES ARE A DELUSION THRN THE REST OF THE BIBLE WOULD HAVE TO BE A LIE, BUT JESUS HAD TOO MANY WITNESSES FOR IT TO BE A LIE
Can you name one person who unquestionably saw Jesus do anything at all and wrote about it?Stuart
matthew mark luke john james moses need I name more miricles hapen today too my back pain was cured about 1 week ago through prayer:p
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 22 2009,03:31) matthew mark luke john james moses need I name more miricles hapen today too my back pain was cured about 1 week ago through prayer:p
If you mean the writer of the gospel called Matthew, then you will have to say who he is, because it is anonymous writing:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Matthew#Authorship
Ditto John:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_john#Authorship_and_date
And the anonymous Luke:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_luke#Author
And the anonymous Mark:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_Mark#Authorship
You are going to have to say which James, in order to answer my question. This might help you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki….osition
Moses saw Jesus and wrote about him?? How do you work that one without appealing to magic?
I am glad your back pain stopped a week ago. If it comes back (which I hope it does not) will you come back on here and tell us that your relapse is a miracle too?
Stuart
Just as a note the placebo effect is a pretty good demonstration of the effects of belief on healing.
That's why when you do a controlled trial, you frequently have groups receiving the active substance or treatment and control groups who only think they are – and you measure the substance or treatment against the placebo effect rather than against a group who think they are receiving no substance or treatment (though you can compare against things other than placebo).
The power of the mind over the body it sits in shouldn't be underestimated.
People who say a lot of surviving is in the mind aren't joking.
You can give a prayer for a christian, and a sugar pill to an atheist, and you should expect on average exactly the same healing to result.
The recent study of cardiac surgery patients suggested that it is better for people NOT to know they are being prayed for. All the results were statistically the same except the group who knew, for whom there was a higher mortality.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 22 2009,10:48) You can give a prayer for a christian, and a sugar pill to an atheist, and you should expect on average exactly the same healing to result. The recent study of cardiac surgery patients suggested that it is better for people NOT to know they are being prayed for. All the results were statistically the same except the group who knew, for whom there was a higher mortality.
Stuart
The effectiveness of placebo does vary, I believe (from individual to individual). Between nil and pretty dramatic.There is also an opposite effect where people fare worse through negative beliefs. Maybe if you know you're being prayed for it has that effect since it implies that's all they can do for you and they clearly think you need it? (given that for some prayer is a refuge of desparation or for big deals only).
With respect to God, given what we now know this planet is capable of – I think it's a trifle unfair and unnecessary to make God necessarily responsible for the various catastrophes documented in the Bible (but some also in other long surviving sources).
Consider that we know:
– Massive volcanoes can pretty much obliterate continents (refer Yellowstone and Toba)
– Large masses of material can fall out of the sky, releasing colossal amounts of energy (Tunguska, KT boundary)
– Huge waves can wash up from the sea and kill people and destroy structures (tsunami, some potentially very large)
– The planet can switch from one stable climate regime to another (this is not gradual and tends to happen at times such as the transition to ice ages or back)
– Earthquakes from slipping plates can shake the ground and destroy buildings, sometimes spectacularly
– Some diseases such as Ebola are rapid, gruesome and have fatality rates of up to around 90% (nonetheless we can still “see” the disease with a powerful enough microscope)All of these can dramatically alter our experience of life and all are largely beyond our own individual control. Life is a fragile thing and God or not, it can end (for large numbers) surprisingly quickly and easily).
How many here would deny the science that explains these phenomena?
I think the cardiac study people surmised pretty much what you did about the elevated mortality in those who knew of the prayers for them.
Of course you are right about natural disasters too, and I believe it has been estimated that there have been about six major global events in the history of the earth that have led to mass extinction (sadly for fundies not one of them was a global flood!). Of course the bit about a god is an add-on. There is no difference between invoking a god and completely ignoring the idea of gods. As you say, these are natural disasters that are completely explained purely in terms of physical forces, effects with no intent behind them that anyone can discern.
However there are those who make outrageous claims about natural disasters being delivered as divine punishments, even though there is no relationship between the perception that the inhabitants commit more religious crimes than others and a higher incidence of such events. It is all make-believe, because if there is such a relationship then you should find a much larger percentage of really bad sinners living along the ring of fire and other like areas of geological activity.
As you will appreciate, I do not go for the god concept at all, as it has never been an explanation for anything, nor a necessity in explaining anything.
Stuart
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 23 2009,00:17) sometimes all the dr can say is it must have been the man upstairs, ive been healed before
You have an immune system more sophisticated than any army you care to name. I have read a fascinating book on the subject written by an expert in immunology but don't know anyone personally who would have the capacity to explain the contents of that book. I think most Drs are not able to explain how the immune system can often solve seemingly intractable health issues without intervention.Of course it could be some other system that did the healing.
Or it could be a god. But that has never been shown to be an explanation for anything else, so I don't see how it could be here either!
Stuart
God preforms miricles and dont say the HOLY GHOST is not poured out like azusa street revivle 1906-1910 i saw it a few times about 100 yrs later
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 23 2009,01:59) God preforms miricles and dont say the HOLY GHOST is not poured out like azusa street revivle 1906-1910 i saw it a few times about 100 yrs later
The holy ghost is not poured out!There, I said it.
The holy ghost can be seen after pouring lots of stuff in…
Stuart
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 24 2009,09:33) the Holy Ghost is poured out to people and lives inside people, and speaks through them
Is it the holy ghost speaking through those who claim to be Jesus?How can you tell real channeling of the Holy GhostTM from the well-meaning but insane people who claim to be channeling it but aren't?
Stuart
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