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t8 said:
Quote To be at God´s right hand side is neither below or above, but next to him. Next to who? God of course. t8,
You told TC that the Revelation blows her “theory” right out of the water. Then you go and blow up yourself with your statement above. You said that Christ's position at God's right hand is “neither below or above”. This is what we have been saying. Jesus is EQUAL to the Father. He is “neither below or above” as you yourself said!t8 said:
Quote Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.So if Christ is God because he is seated at the highest place, then you must also conclude that we are Christ as we can be seated with him.
t8,
Come on! Their session with Christ referred to their spiritual salvation (Colossians 3:1).thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,04:16) t8 said: Quote To be at God´s right hand side is neither below or above, but next to him. Next to who? God of course. t8,
You told TC that the Revelation blows her “theory” right out of the water. Then you go and blow up yourself with your statement above. You said that Christ's position at God's right hand is “neither below or above”. This is what we have been saying. Jesus is EQUAL to the Father. He is “neither below or above” as you yourself said!t8 said:
Quote Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.So if Christ is God because he is seated at the highest place, then you must also conclude that we are Christ as we can be seated with him.
t8,
Come on! Their session with Christ referred to their spiritual salvation (Colossians 3:1).thinker
Being at the right hand does not mean equality with if it does check this out:Psalm 16:7-9 (King James Version)
7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved
now you claim that Jesus is equal to God because he is a at his right hand but look:
Mark 10:39-41 (King James Version)
39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Jesus says here clearly that he still wouldn't have the power to decide who would be to his left or right. He actually says it is not mine to give.
This should teach you a lot
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 07 2009,04:42) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,04:16) t8 said: Quote To be at God´s right hand side is neither below or above, but next to him. Next to who? God of course. t8,
You told TC that the Revelation blows her “theory” right out of the water. Then you go and blow up yourself with your statement above. You said that Christ's position at God's right hand is “neither below or above”. This is what we have been saying. Jesus is EQUAL to the Father. He is “neither below or above” as you yourself said!t8 said:
Quote Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.So if Christ is God because he is seated at the highest place, then you must also conclude that we are Christ as we can be seated with him.
t8,
Come on! Their session with Christ referred to their spiritual salvation (Colossians 3:1).thinker
Being at the right hand does not mean equality with if it does check this out:Psalm 16:7-9 (King James Version)
7 I will bless the LORD, who hath given me counsel: my reins also instruct me in the night seasons.
8 I have set the LORD always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved
now you claim that Jesus is equal to God because he is a at his right hand but look:
Mark 10:39-41 (King James Version)
39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Jesus says here clearly that he still wouldn't have the power to decide who would be to his left or right. He actually says it is not mine to give.
This should teach you a lot
JN,Matthew 20
23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
You said that Jesus is the Father (God) but here you have a huge problem to explain because Jesus tells his disciples that he cannot give them a position to the right or left of him because thay are not his to give.
He says only his Father can do that. This simple thing that Jesus says proves several things so CB, Thinker, WJ this completely eliminates the idea of equality on earth or in heaven because this is Jesus on earth talking about the future situation in heaven and he clearly says he does not have the Authority to say who will be to his right or left because that Authority is not his.
Do you concede or Is Jesus mistaken
Hi BD
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,12:49) He says only his Father can do that. He says no such thing, in fact he doesnt even mention the Father in the verse.
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.” MK 10:40
Jesus statement is simply an acknowledment of not being able to act on his own accord, and that his right hand and left hand is already prepared for those chosen.
For Jesus would be lying when he says…
To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne“, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Is Jesus contradicting himself when he says he has “All Power” in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:19
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
Of course all of the proof text used against the Trinitarian view only addresses part truth and not the whole found in the scriptures. Holding on to some verses and leaving others out, is the popular method of the gainsayers.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,05:21) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,12:49) He says only his Father can do that. He says no such thing, in fact he doesnt even mention the Father in the verse.
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.” MK 10:40
Jesus statement is simply an acknowledment of not being able to act on his own accord, and that his right hand and left hand is already prepared for those chosen.
For Jesus would be lying when he says…
To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne“, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Is Jesus contradicting himself when he says he has “All Power” in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:19
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
Of course all of the proof text used against the Trinitarian view only addresses part truth and not the whole found in the scriptures. Holding on to some verses and leaving others out, is the popular method of the gainsayers.
WJ
Matthew 2023And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
I would appreciate a concession please.Now what were you saying?
bodhitharta said:
Quote Jesus says here clearly that he still wouldn't have the power to decide who would be to his left or right. He actually says it is not mine to give. This should teach you a lot
bd,
Jesus had not been exalted yet when He said that. You prove nothing.thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote Matthew 20 23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
I would appreciate a concession please.Now what were you saying?
pd,
No concession yet. Jesus did not have the authority before He was exalted. After His resurrection He said that He has ALL authority. You keep referring to statements Jesus made before He was exalted and that do NOT apply now.thinker
bodhitharta said:
Quote You said that Jesus is the Father (God) but here you have a huge problem to explain because Jesus tells his disciples that he cannot give them a position to the right or left of him because thay are not his to give. I NEVER SAID THAT JESUS IS THE FATHER
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,05:21) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,12:49) He says only his Father can do that. He says no such thing, in fact he doesnt even mention the Father in the verse.
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.” MK 10:40
Jesus statement is simply an acknowledment of not being able to act on his own accord, and that his right hand and left hand is already prepared for those chosen.
For Jesus would be lying when he says…
To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne“, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Is Jesus contradicting himself when he says he has “All Power” in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:19
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
Of course all of the proof text used against the Trinitarian view only addresses part truth and not the whole found in the scriptures. Holding on to some verses and leaving others out, is the popular method of the gainsayers.
WJ
WJ,
You are correct. That which Jesus could not give before He was exalted He has the authority to give now. Bodhitharta and others here keep referring to statements Jesus made BEFORE He was exalted as if they are still true. He has ALL authority now.Where is that concession Bod?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:40) bodhitharta said: Quote Jesus says here clearly that he still wouldn't have the power to decide who would be to his left or right. He actually says it is not mine to give. This should teach you a lot
bd,
Jesus had not been exalted yet when He said that. You prove nothing.thinker
Thinker,Jesus was discussing what he would be able to do at the right hand of God. He was talking about the future in the Kingdom of God.
I know everyone likes to be right but sometimes we must concede certain things and I know you are someone who is dedicated to the truth even above your own viewpoint or desires.
So once again Jesus is saying clearly that in the Kingdom of God he would not have the Power to decide who “would” be on his left or right because because it is not his to give.
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:44) bodhitharta said: Quote Matthew 20 23And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.
I would appreciate a concession please.Now what were you saying?
pd,
No concession yet. Jesus did not have the authority before He was exalted. After His resurrection He said that He has ALL authority. You keep referring to statements Jesus made before He was exalted and that do NOT apply now.thinker
Matthew 2818 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
This was before he was exalted and at this point he still could not say who would be placed to his right or his left because it is not his to give.
You should concede this point but if you want I (with God's hepl) will help make it clearer for you.
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:46) bodhitharta said: Quote You said that Jesus is the Father (God) but here you have a huge problem to explain because Jesus tells his disciples that he cannot give them a position to the right or left of him because thay are not his to give. I NEVER SAID THAT JESUS IS THE FATHER
thinker
That post wasn't directed towards you it was directed towards JN because he believes that Jesus is the Father or in your language God is Jesus.bodhitharta said:
Quote Thinker, Jesus was discussing what he would be able to do at the right hand of God. He was talking about the future in the Kingdom of God.
I know everyone likes to be right but sometimes we must concede certain things and I know you are someone who is dedicated to the truth even above your own viewpoint or desires.
So once again Jesus is saying clearly that in the Kingdom of God he would not have the Power to decide who “would” be on his left or right because because it is not his to give.
bd,
What is your proof that Jesus was speaking of a limited authority after He was exalted to God's right hand? He clearly said AFTER His resurrection that He had ALL authority in heaven and earth. And WJ has correctly pointed out that He has the authority now to grant who will sit at His right hand,Quote To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne”, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21 Why are you selective in your use of the Scriptures?
thinker
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,16:53) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:40) bodhitharta said: Quote Jesus says here clearly that he still wouldn't have the power to decide who would be to his left or right. He actually says it is not mine to give. This should teach you a lot
bd,
Jesus had not been exalted yet when He said that. You prove nothing.thinker
Thinker,Jesus was discussing what he would be able to do at the right hand of God. He was talking about the future in the Kingdom of God.
I know everyone likes to be right but sometimes we must concede certain things and I know you are someone who is dedicated to the truth even above your own viewpoint or desires.
So once again Jesus is saying clearly that in the Kingdom of God he would not have the Power to decide who “would” be on his left or right because because it is not his to give.
Hi BDRight, he is talking about the future, but notice he says it is given to them for whom they were prepared.
Those plces were already given!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,05:21) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,12:49) He says only his Father can do that. He says no such thing, in fact he doesnt even mention the Father in the verse.
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.” MK 10:40
Jesus statement is simply an acknowledment of not being able to act on his own accord, and that his right hand and left hand is already prepared for those chosen.
For Jesus would be lying when he says…
To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne“, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Is Jesus contradicting himself when he says he has “All Power” in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:19
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
Of course all of the proof text used against the Trinitarian view only addresses part truth and not the whole found in the scriptures. Holding on to some verses and leaving others out, is the popular method of the gainsayers.
WJ
WJ,
You are correct. That which Jesus could not give before He was exalted He has the authority to give now. Bodhitharta and others here keep referring to statements Jesus made BEFORE He was exalted as if they are still true. He has ALL authority now.Where is that concession Bod?
thinker
Matthew 613 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Jesus says here that THE FATHER has The KINGDOM, The Power and the Glory FOREVER.
John 17:1-3 (King James Version)
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
BTW, my use of capitalization in this case is not me raising my voice it is just for visual emphasis.
You can see in John 17:2 Jesus already has the power given to him. Once again it is best to concede or if you prefer (God willing) I can make it clearer.
Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,09:06) bodhitharta said: Quote Thinker, Jesus was discussing what he would be able to do at the right hand of God. He was talking about the future in the Kingdom of God.
I know everyone likes to be right but sometimes we must concede certain things and I know you are someone who is dedicated to the truth even above your own viewpoint or desires.
So once again Jesus is saying clearly that in the Kingdom of God he would not have the Power to decide who “would” be on his left or right because because it is not his to give.
bd,
What is your proof that Jesus was speaking of a limited authority after He was exalted to God's right hand? He clearly said AFTER His resurrection that He had ALL authority in heaven and earth. And WJ has correctly pointed out that He has the authority now to grant who will sit at His right hand,Quote To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne”, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21 Why are you selective in your use of the Scriptures?
thinker
The question was not whether he had the authority to grant others to sit with him it was whether he had the Authority to grant who would sit to the left or right of him.But it really doesn't matter because Jesus said that The Father has THE KINGDOM, The POWER and THE Glory forever.
When Jesus says forever does he mean forever.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,09:10) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,16:53) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:40) bodhitharta said: Quote Jesus says here clearly that he still wouldn't have the power to decide who would be to his left or right. He actually says it is not mine to give. This should teach you a lot
bd,
Jesus had not been exalted yet when He said that. You prove nothing.thinker
Thinker,Jesus was discussing what he would be able to do at the right hand of God. He was talking about the future in the Kingdom of God.
I know everyone likes to be right but sometimes we must concede certain things and I know you are someone who is dedicated to the truth even above your own viewpoint or desires.
So once again Jesus is saying clearly that in the Kingdom of God he would not have the Power to decide who “would” be on his left or right because because it is not his to give.
Hi BDRight, he is talking about the future, but notice he says it is given to them for whom they were prepared.
Those plces were already given!
WJ
were already given by The Father not Jesus but the most important part was Jesus said that they were not his to give, they didn't belong to him. He had nor has the authority to give them.You really can't get around that statement of his, He didn't say they are going to be mine or that they were not yet his he said. “but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.”
There is no doubt the discussion is about the resurrected Jesus.
Hi WJ and thethinker:
Are you saying that in his position as head of the church, Jesus is not subjected to the Father?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,17:23) Quote (thethinker @ July 07 2009,08:52) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 07 2009,05:21) Hi BD Quote (bodhitharta @ July 06 2009,12:49) He says only his Father can do that. He says no such thing, in fact he doesnt even mention the Father in the verse.
but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared.” MK 10:40
Jesus statement is simply an acknowledment of not being able to act on his own accord, and that his right hand and left hand is already prepared for those chosen.
For Jesus would be lying when he says…
To him that overcometh “will I grant to sit with me in my throne“, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. Rev 3:21
Is Jesus contradicting himself when he says he has “All Power” in heaven and in earth. Matt 28:19
He is the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords!
Of course all of the proof text used against the Trinitarian view only addresses part truth and not the whole found in the scriptures. Holding on to some verses and leaving others out, is the popular method of the gainsayers.
WJ
WJ,
You are correct. That which Jesus could not give before He was exalted He has the authority to give now. Bodhitharta and others here keep referring to statements Jesus made BEFORE He was exalted as if they are still true. He has ALL authority now.Where is that concession Bod?
thinker
Matthew 613 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Jesus says here that THE FATHER has The KINGDOM, The Power and the Glory FOREVER.
John 17:1-3 (King James Version)
John 17
1These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:2As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
BTW, my use of capitalization in this case is not me raising my voice it is just for visual emphasis.
You can see in John 17:2 Jesus already has the power given to him. Once again it is best to concede or if you prefer (God willing) I can make it clearer.
Hi BD
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. “Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end“. He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this. Isa 9:6,7
Is this talking about the Father or Jesus?
Now what did Paul say…
Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 1 Cor 15:24, 25
Who has the Kingdom BD?
Now here is the kicker…
The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. “When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all“. 1 Cor 15:27, 28
Here Paul is saying that when all things are subjected under Jesus “THEN” he will subject himself to the Father that God may be all in all.
So when the scriptures says that Jesus has all authority and Power and that the increase of “HIS” Kingdom will never end, then that tells us that Jesus will keep all authority and power even when he subjects himself to the Father. According to Paul’s own words here Jesus is not subject to the Father at this time but is in fact he is at the Fathers right hand of the Father with all authority and power subject to him.
Jesus is the “KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS” and always will be.
But again as usual nontrinitarians cannot see the big picture in scriptures but have tunnel vision with their proof text.
WJ
Quote (942767 @ July 06 2009,18:13) Hi WJ and thethinker: Are you saying that in his position as head of the church, Jesus is not subjected to the Father?
Love in Christ,
Marty
Hi MartyRead 1st Cor 15 and you will see that Paul is implying just that!
If the Father gave Jesus all Power and all Authority then it means just that!
WJ
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