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Quote (Cindy @ July 04 2009,12:58) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,08:46) Somebody tell me. What good is the death of Jesus if he was only a man? How can merely a man pay for all the sin that needed forgiveness, especially if he was forced to by God? Doesn't God coming to this earth and willingly sacrificing himself seem to be a better sacrifice than an obedient man? I sure believe so. God's love is that immeasurable. TC27
In Hebrew 1:8 God the Father is calling His Son God. So we do know that He became a man.
John 1:1 He is called God and in
verse 14 that Word became flesh. He was not just a mere man. He had the mind of God which His Father taught to Him. When it says that all have fallen short of the glory of God, we can understand that it had to be somebody special in order to save mankind.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene.Yes, Hebrews 1:8 proves that Jesus is God. God called Jesus God. I do not understand how this can be mistaken. I am trying to say that Jesus was more than just a mere man, and you helped me do that while also helping me make my trinitarian point.
So thank you.
TC27
Hi TC,
Really?So what does
“…GOD , YOUR GOD,… mean in verse 9.The God you speak of has a God.
Could it be that the God of Jesus is also our God?
Id He the one that true worshipers worship as Jesus told us in Jn4?
Is He the God Jesus spoke of he was returning to in Jn20?Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:53) Hi TC, Why are men so important?
We are looking at the undeserved mercy of God.Would you prefer the immortal God was to die?
Jesus had to be a man to die on behalf of men.
He chose death for our sin trusting in his God.The scapegoat died for men.
He was the sacrifice unto God and not also the God to whom he was ascrificed.
Nick,Men are not so important; that is why a mere man as a sacrifice cannot be enough to pay for our sin. We are not great, but our sin is great. That is why Jesus has to be GREATER than that sin in order for it to be paid in full.
Ahhh, so you admit that Jesus chose his death? Would someone lesser than God be able to choose that? You contradict yourself.
TC27
If a man was not enough to pay for your sin then you are saying that man is greater than God, because you say through Adam all are condemned but you say that with Jesus whom you call God that it takes the death of God to rectify the sin of one man and then you also say that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus they will not be forgiven but they do not have to believe in Adam to be condemnedSurely you should rethink what you understand beacuse the way you believe Adam is greater than God
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,09:13) Quote (Cindy @ July 04 2009,12:58) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,08:46) Somebody tell me. What good is the death of Jesus if he was only a man? How can merely a man pay for all the sin that needed forgiveness, especially if he was forced to by God? Doesn't God coming to this earth and willingly sacrificing himself seem to be a better sacrifice than an obedient man? I sure believe so. God's love is that immeasurable. TC27
In Hebrew 1:8 God the Father is calling His Son God. So we do know that He became a man.
John 1:1 He is called God and in
verse 14 that Word became flesh. He was not just a mere man. He had the mind of God which His Father taught to Him. When it says that all have fallen short of the glory of God, we can understand that it had to be somebody special in order to save mankind.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene.Yes, Hebrews 1:8 proves that Jesus is God. God called Jesus God. I do not understand how this can be mistaken. I am trying to say that Jesus was more than just a mere man, and you helped me do that while also helping me make my trinitarian point.
So thank you.
TC27
No that is false there is no trinity. Because by Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28 ….My Father is greater then I….Ephesians 4:6 One Father of all and who is above all.
Deut. 4:35 ' Unto thee it is shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God: there is none other God besides Him. Meaning that He is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God.
Deut. 5:4 ” Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD.
1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none othder God but ONE.”
According to these Scriptures there is no trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine . By Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first to institute this doctrine in A.D. 193.
The Christians at that time were not aloud to own a Bible and many were tortured and killed because of it. They did not teach the trinity.
You and all who want to teach the truth we need to1 Thes. 5:21 ” PROVE ALL THINGS.”
Peace and Love Irene
so if we see only 1 God not 3 then why is it so hard for peoplew to throw away a teaching of trinity?
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 04 2009,16:21) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 05 2009,09:07) Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 04 2009,12:53) Hi TC, Why are men so important?
We are looking at the undeserved mercy of God.Would you prefer the immortal God was to die?
Jesus had to be a man to die on behalf of men.
He chose death for our sin trusting in his God.The scapegoat died for men.
He was the sacrifice unto God and not also the God to whom he was ascrificed.
Nick,Men are not so important; that is why a mere man as a sacrifice cannot be enough to pay for our sin. We are not great, but our sin is great. That is why Jesus has to be GREATER than that sin in order for it to be paid in full.
Ahhh, so you admit that Jesus chose his death? Would someone lesser than God be able to choose that? You contradict yourself.
TC27
If a man was not enough to pay for your sin then you are saying that man is greater than God, because you say through Adam all are condemned but you say that with Jesus whom you call God that it takes the death of God to rectify the sin of one man and then you also say that if a person doesn't believe in Jesus they will not be forgiven but they do not have to believe in Adam to be condemnedSurely you should rethink what you understand beacuse the way you believe Adam is greater than God
Bod,I am not at all saying that man is greater than God. You forget that before Adam sinned, he was perfect. That means that he had the free will to choose to be a sinner or stay in his perfect state. He chose sin and therefore became a sinner. Now, we who are born, have no choice to be sinners or not. We have been born into sin whether we like it or not. So how can a man pay for the sins of man? We can be condemned to sin by a man because that man was originally perfect. Only God has the power to undo that sin, and it was his sovereign choice made out of love to come as a man and die. My God loves more if he is willing to do such a thing. When you speak of God, it is not about his abounding love.
TC27
Irene said:
Quote No that is false there is no trinity. Because by Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28 ….My Father is greater then I….Ephesians 4:6 One Father of all and who is above all.
Deut. 4:35 ' Unto thee it is shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God: there is none other God besides Him. Meaning that He is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God.
Deut. 5:4 ” Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD.
1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none othder God but ONE.”
According to these Scriptures there is no trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine . By Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first to institute this doctrine in A.D. 193.
The Christians at that time were not aloud to own a Bible and many were tortured and killed because of it. They did not teach the trinity.
You and all who want to teach the truth we need to1 Thes. 5:21 ” PROVE ALL THINGS.”
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
I do not disagree with any of the verses you gave. The problem is that you misunderstand their meanings. Jesus was lesser while on earth because he was inhabiting the flesh. It says in Philippians 2 that he made himself nothing. That was his choice. So yes, the Father was greater for that period of time. However, it also says in Philippians chapter 2 that he was exalted to the HIGHEST place. That means equality with God does it not? Besides, how could just a man sent by God MAKE himself nothing. That choice implies sovereignty.
TC27
Quote (thethinker @ June 21 2009,00:03) Okay guys (and girls), I have another “US” verse but this time it is adonai who is speaking,
Here is an US verse. Look at what it says.1 Corinthians 8:5-6
5 For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”),
6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Are you US? If you are, then there is one God the Father and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. Not one God the Father, Son, Spirit.
God is not a collection of persons. He is the Father.
For us, there is one God the Father and one lord, the Lord Jesus Christ. So why debate against us, and this truth?
Truth or tradition? Your choice.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 06 2009,08:13) Irene said: Quote No that is false there is no trinity. Because by Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28 ….My Father is greater then I….Ephesians 4:6 One Father of all and who is above all.
Deut. 4:35 ' Unto thee it is shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God: there is none other God besides Him. Meaning that He is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God.
Deut. 5:4 ” Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD.
1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none othder God but ONE.”
According to these Scriptures there is no trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine . By Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first to institute this doctrine in A.D. 193.
The Christians at that time were not aloud to own a Bible and many were tortured and killed because of it. They did not teach the trinity.
You and all who want to teach the truth we need to1 Thes. 5:21 ” PROVE ALL THINGS.”
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
I do not disagree with any of the verses you gave. The problem is that you misunderstand their meanings. Jesus was lesser while on earth because he was inhabiting the flesh. It says in Philippians 2 that he made himself nothing. That was his choice. So yes, the Father was greater for that period of time. However, it also says in Philippians chapter 2 that he was exalted to the HIGHEST place. That means equality with God does it not? Besides, how could just a man sent by God MAKE himself nothing. That choice implies sovereignty.
TC27
If God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, then what you are saying, is false. The trinity is a man made doctrine, I can not go past that. All Scriptures given stand. What you saying makes no sense, then youi have to throw the whole N.T. out. No TC27Peace and Love Irene
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 06 2009,08:13) Irene said: Quote No that is false there is no trinity. Because by Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28 ….My Father is greater then I….Ephesians 4:6 One Father of all and who is above all.
Deut. 4:35 ' Unto thee it is shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God: there is none other God besides Him. Meaning that He is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God.
Deut. 5:4 ” Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD.
1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none othder God but ONE.”
According to these Scriptures there is no trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine . By Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first to institute this doctrine in A.D. 193.
The Christians at that time were not aloud to own a Bible and many were tortured and killed because of it. They did not teach the trinity.
You and all who want to teach the truth we need to1 Thes. 5:21 ” PROVE ALL THINGS.”
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
I do not disagree with any of the verses you gave. The problem is that you misunderstand their meanings. Jesus was lesser while on earth because he was inhabiting the flesh. It says in Philippians 2 that he made himself nothing. That was his choice. So yes, the Father was greater for that period of time. However, it also says in Philippians chapter 2 that he was exalted to the HIGHEST place. That means equality with God does it not? Besides, how could just a man sent by God MAKE himself nothing. That choice implies sovereignty.
TC27
Who exalted him?Quote (Cindy @ July 05 2009,18:37) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 06 2009,08:13) Irene said: Quote No that is false there is no trinity. Because by Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28 ….My Father is greater then I….Ephesians 4:6 One Father of all and who is above all.
Deut. 4:35 ' Unto thee it is shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God: there is none other God besides Him. Meaning that He is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God.
Deut. 5:4 ” Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD.
1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none othder God but ONE.”
According to these Scriptures there is no trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine . By Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first to institute this doctrine in A.D. 193.
The Christians at that time were not aloud to own a Bible and many were tortured and killed because of it. They did not teach the trinity.
You and all who want to teach the truth we need to1 Thes. 5:21 ” PROVE ALL THINGS.”
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
I do not disagree with any of the verses you gave. The problem is that you misunderstand their meanings. Jesus was lesser while on earth because he was inhabiting the flesh. It says in Philippians 2 that he made himself nothing. That was his choice. So yes, the Father was greater for that period of time. However, it also says in Philippians chapter 2 that he was exalted to the HIGHEST place. That means equality with God does it not? Besides, how could just a man sent by God MAKE himself nothing. That choice implies sovereignty.
TC27
If God is the same yesterday today and tomorrow, then what you are saying, is false. The trinity is a man made doctrine, I can not go past that. All Scriptures given stand. What you saying makes no sense, then youi have to throw the whole N.T. out. No TC27Peace and Love Irene
Irene,What I said never implied that God changed. Him making himself nothing was out of love. God is love. Therefore, he stayed within his nature. Therefore, his nature did not change.
TC27
Quote (bodhitharta @ July 05 2009,18:51) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 06 2009,08:13) Irene said: Quote No that is false there is no trinity. Because by Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28 ….My Father is greater then I….Ephesians 4:6 One Father of all and who is above all.
Deut. 4:35 ' Unto thee it is shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God: there is none other God besides Him. Meaning that He is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God.
Deut. 5:4 ” Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD.
1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none othder God but ONE.”
According to these Scriptures there is no trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine . By Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first to institute this doctrine in A.D. 193.
The Christians at that time were not aloud to own a Bible and many were tortured and killed because of it. They did not teach the trinity.
You and all who want to teach the truth we need to1 Thes. 5:21 ” PROVE ALL THINGS.”
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
I do not disagree with any of the verses you gave. The problem is that you misunderstand their meanings. Jesus was lesser while on earth because he was inhabiting the flesh. It says in Philippians 2 that he made himself nothing. That was his choice. So yes, the Father was greater for that period of time. However, it also says in Philippians chapter 2 that he was exalted to the HIGHEST place. That means equality with God does it not? Besides, how could just a man sent by God MAKE himself nothing. That choice implies sovereignty.
TC27
Who exalted him?
Bod,The Father exalted the Son. Like I said, the persons are separate but they are all a part of one God.
TC27
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 06 2009,08:13) Irene, I do not disagree with any of the verses you gave. The problem is that you misunderstand their meanings. Jesus was lesser while on earth because he was inhabiting the flesh. It says in Philippians 2 that he made himself nothing. That was his choice. So yes, the Father was greater for that period of time. However, it also says in Philippians chapter 2 that he was exalted to the HIGHEST place. That means equality with God does it not? Besides, how could just a man sent by God MAKE himself nothing. That choice implies sovereignty.
Here is what it says about the exhalted Jesus who is seated at the right hand of the majesty on High:Revelation 1:1 (English-NIV)
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,Revelation 1:6 (English-NIV)
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.Revelation 3:12 (English-NIV)
Him who overcomes I will make a pillar in the temple of my God.
Never again will he leave it.
I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.Are you humble enough to admit to us here that these 3 verses blow your theory out of the water? If not, can you at least admit that even an exhalted Jesus has a God who is the same God as ours?
BTW, to be exhalted to the highest place is to be exhalted to where God is and at his right hand side.
Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God.To be at God´s right hand side is neither below or above, but next to him. Next to who? God of course.
Revelation 3:21
To him who overcomes, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I overcame and sat down with my Father on his throne.So if Christ is God because he is seated at the highest place, then you must also conclude that we are Christ as we can be seated with him.
So TrinitarianCalvinist27,
are you willing to defend and preserve the word of God or will you like others follow the traditions of men and nullify the power of God.Apostacy or truth? We all get this choice.
Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 06 2009,15:35) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 05 2009,18:51) Quote (TrinitarianCalvinist27 @ July 06 2009,08:13) Irene said: Quote No that is false there is no trinity. Because by Jesus own words He said in
John 14:28 ….My Father is greater then I….Ephesians 4:6 One Father of all and who is above all.
Deut. 4:35 ' Unto thee it is shewed, that thou mightiest know that the LORD He is God: there is none other God besides Him. Meaning that He is the Almighty God, while Jesus is the Mighty God.
Deut. 5:4 ” Hear, O Israel; THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE GOD.
1 Cor. 8:4 ” And that there is none othder God but ONE.”
According to these Scriptures there is no trinity doctrine. It is a man made doctrine . By Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullian was the first to institute this doctrine in A.D. 193.
The Christians at that time were not aloud to own a Bible and many were tortured and killed because of it. They did not teach the trinity.
You and all who want to teach the truth we need to1 Thes. 5:21 ” PROVE ALL THINGS.”
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
I do not disagree with any of the verses you gave. The problem is that you misunderstand their meanings. Jesus was lesser while on earth because he was inhabiting the flesh. It says in Philippians 2 that he made himself nothing. That was his choice. So yes, the Father was greater for that period of time. However, it also says in Philippians chapter 2 that he was exalted to the HIGHEST place. That means equality with God does it not? Besides, how could just a man sent by God MAKE himself nothing. That choice implies sovereignty.
TC27
Who exalted him?
Bod,The Father exalted the Son. Like I said, the persons are separate but they are all a part of one God.
TC27
So are you saying that God(Jesus) became less than God(Jehovah) so that God(Jesus) could die for you while God(Jehovah) and God(Holy Spirit) stayed alive and raised God(Jesus) from the dead and then God(Jesus) was exalted by God(Jehovah) to sit at the God(Jehovah's) right hand?So by this you mean that 1 part of God became less than God and then actually died? When Jesus was dead was he still God at the time?
Quote (Jesus name follower of Christ @ July 06 2009,23:14) JESUS WAS GOD AND GOD DIED ON A CROSS
JN,Then why does the scripture say that God raised Jesus from the dead?
Who ran the world when God was dead?
Please explain to me in detail who the “Father” is and who the “Son” is and why did Jesus say he was going to the Father when you say he was the Father?
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