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Quote (RokkaMan @ May 13 2010,16:50) Yes God said he wouldn't share his glory with another, but if Jesus is God…then he isn't lol… I bet that's a brain buster? Well it's truth
Also out of Jesus' own mouth, he asked God to restore him to the glory he “shared” with him before the world was….
So maybe scripture disagrees with you now?
Hi RM,I think you misquote Scripture here. Jesus never implied he had his God's glory, did he? I don't think the word “shared” is in the Greek, is it?
And as far as your “brain buster”, I think it is pretty clear that God Almighty doesn't call anyone “my God”. But Jesus did on earth and still does in heaven, doesn't he?
peace and love,
mikeHi RM,
You said:
Quote John 17 v5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. So what kind of glory did he have well
John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.The Greek for John 1:1 says,
in beginning the word was toward the god and god was the word
Can you see that only one in that sentence is THE god? The other one was WITH the god. One being cannot be WITH itself, can it? Doesn't the word WITH imply TWO separate beings that are WITH each other?
You said:
Quote But take a look at this verse 14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
So it seems there's two glories of Jesus Christ.
One as God before the world was…
And one as the only begotten of the Father after he was made flesh???The Word is the Son of God, not God. Revelation makes this clear. God never became flesh, His Son did.
I agree that Jesus was glorious even as a man. And I agree that he was even more glorious before he became flesh. He has been restored to that previous glory (or higher) and sits at the right hand of his God. Since the right hand position is the highest position NEXT TO the one who's right hand you are at, and that is where Jesus was restored to, then he must not have been God Almighty ever. Does that make sense to you?
You said:
Quote If Jesus is God in flesh…it isn't considered sharing glory with another…His glory is still upon himself. Jesus is in heaven, where God's kingdom is. Flesh cannot enter that kingdom, so Jesus is not still flesh. Nor was he ever God, let alone in the flesh, where he prayed many times to his God, who happens to be the same as our God. The ONLY true God, as Jesus calls Him.
And there you go with the “sharing” again. Is that word actually in Scripture somewhere? Jehovah says He WON'T share His glory with another. Jesus is definitely “another”.
peace and love,
mikeSimplyForgiven,May wrote:[/quote]
Hi Dennison,You said:
Quote So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God?
Was Jesus saying that he was one with God?
I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity.Your last sentence, which I bolded, says it all. You can't say that Jesus said the Father is greater because he was in the limited state of humanity, and at the same time believe that the Jews were right in accusing him of being equal to God. Jesus himself corrected the mistaken Jews, didn't he? They were wrong, just as anyone who thinks their mistake proves Jesus was God in the flesh is wrong.
You said:
Quote Is it saying that everything that Jesus has is from the father, and what Jesus possess the Holy Spirit has as well? No. He says “receive OF mine”, not “receive EVERY SINGLE THING I HAVE”. Is that what you were asking?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ May 14 2010,13:07) RM …………O really please show us where GOD said “He humbled himslef and became a man”? What bible are you reading,
Hi Gene,Right on, brother!
I've have never read that in any Bible.peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,14:13) SimplyForgiven,May wrote:[/quote]
Hi Dennison,You said:
Quote So the jews believe that Jesus was saying that he was God?
Was Jesus saying that he was one with God?
I know that Later he says that the Father is greater than him, but of course he is at that current limited state of humanity.Your last sentence, which I bolded, says it all. You can't say that Jesus said the Father is greater because he was in the limited state of humanity, and at the same time believe that the Jews were right in accusing him of being equal to God. Jesus himself corrected the mistaken Jews, didn't he? They were wrong, just as anyone who thinks their mistake proves Jesus was God in the flesh is wrong.
You said:
Quote Is it saying that everything that Jesus has is from the father, and what Jesus possess the Holy Spirit has as well? No. He says “receive OF mine”, not “receive EVERY SINGLE THING I HAVE”. Is that what you were asking?
peace and love,
mike
Let me correct my statement, the verse before the one i posted says that
John 10:
27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30I and my Father are one.
31Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
39Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
————————————————
again let me correct my statement. Jesus said that BEFORE he said that the father and i are one.and than continues. Im not asking to argue against the trinity, im asking for the Interpretation.
2. well second not really because thats confusing…. i didnt ask if the Holy Spirit posseseed everything that Jesus had. im asking for the connection there.
i mean it says
that everything of the father belongs to the son correct?
than it says that the spririt of Truth other words the Holy Spirit is will not speak of himself but what what is received from Christ?
it also says after jesus says that everything of the father is his, that he clarifies that therefore thats why he is saying it, that the Spirit of Truth is is taking of what is Jesus, and showing it to us?is that correct or …… is are ya seeing something differnt. i kind of jungled it up a bit, but im sure u can understand the points..
much love bro.
Hey mike lets talk about this all in one thread, the other one that is specific to this point.
bc this one is talking about something else.
you know what i mean?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 14 2010,14:15) Quote (Gene Balthrop @ May 14 2010,13:07) RM …………O really please show us where GOD said “He humbled himslef and became a man”? What bible are you reading,
Hi Gene,Right on, brother!
I've have never read that in any Bible.peace and love,
mike
Philippians 2:8
And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.To extend on Rokkamans point. I think he was talking about this verse right here.
again this would make sense If we believe that God and Jesus are one.so the arguement extend to validate this scripture. to validate it we must look at context.
Philippians 2
1If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
9Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Than we would have to answer for verse 6, and 7.
but to answer what the writer meant by humbled, we can understand that when he wrote humble it didnt extend to his next point about obedience,
so when the word humbled was mentioned it was reffering to the last statment about being FOUND Fashioned AS Man.
How do you humble yourself by being a man if you already are a man?
Idk just food for thought.
Um i think this is in every bible.
we should all double check just to make sure.
Much Love,
Hi SF:
The scripture that you quoted from Philippians 2 states:
Quote Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The Apostle Paul by these scriptures is teaching the church about humility and not stating that Jesus was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world. The scripture states “and being in the form of God”. That is, he was in the form of God as God's Son and His Christ, but he did not let his position of authority “go to his head”, so to speak, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 15 2010,09:44) Hi SF: The scripture that you quoted from Philippians 2 states:
Quote Phil 2:5Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
7But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The Apostle Paul by these scriptures is teaching the church about humility and not stating that Jesus was in the form of God prior to his birth into this world. The scripture states “and being in the form of God”. That is, he was in the form of God as God's Son and His Christ, but he did not let his position of authority “go to his head”, so to speak, but he humbled himself and became obedient even unto death on the cross.
Love in Christ,
Marty
But you didnt validate anything bro,to me all you said that he humbled himself to the death of the cross at a servant.
But clearly thats not what scripture is saying,
What is stated is two seperate points.
from 1-5 he is talking about how a Christian mind should work,
but notice on 6, how the Apostle starts off describing Jesus, not humility.
verse 5 end with “Christ Jesus”, and than begins verse 6, with “Who”.
its like saying, you should think like the “presidnet”, “who” is human, and who was poor when he was young and rich beacuse he never gave up.
If its only based on humility than, why does Paul go off in a Tangent about God glofiying…, and that every tongue should confess… and etc.
so your argueing that what Paul meant by humble, is because he wasnt concieted?
The only discription that fits that idea, is that Paul stated, he took the form of a servant, and took no reputation.but that wouldnt link with the next part, where he states he was made into the likeness of man…
Why would paul first right, that he would have no reputation, and than a form of a servant, and than mention this man was man?
question being, how do you humble yourself by being or becoming man?
First he had no reputation, and second took a form of a servant, and than was in the likeness of Man?
shouldnt it be more like,
Even though he was man, he took no reputation of his own, and took the form of a servant to serve all.
but its backwards?
does that make any sense?
But here you go again stating that he humbled him self to what?
being a servant? being human, or dieing in the cross?
as i stated before,
what did paul mean when he said humble? what did he relate that to?
Notice how Pauls states that Jesus became a servant, and than metions that he was in the likeness of man. ends a point.
and than extends saying, that being FASHIONed as a Man, he humbled himself?
and than adds, by saying and was obeident unto Death, even dieing on a cross.
When Paul adds “AND” it becomes a seperate point that adds to the orginal idea or point.
so that doesnt make sense to me.
How can God inspire writing that says, he made him self no reputation, and a servant, by being in the likeness of man, instead of saying it backwards…
Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 14 2010,20:10) is that correct or …… is are ya seeing something differnt. i kind of jungled it up a bit, but im sure u can understand the points..
Hi Dennison,Sorry, but I'm not sure what the questions are.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (SimplyForgiven @ May 14 2010,21:00) How do you humble yourself by being a man if you already are a man?
Who ever said that Jesus was a human before he came as flesh?mike
Hi Dennison,
What form is God in? Spirit, right? The Scripture says that Jesus, who was spirit, humbled himself to become flesh. That's all. There is no inference about Jesus actually BEING God Almighty, is there?
The same Paul that wrote this also wrote, “but for us there is one God, the Father”. Compare the other writings of Paul to make an educated guess as to whether Paul thought Jesus was in fact God before he came as flesh.
peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
Paul never knew the man Jesus.
He only met him as the Spirit of Christ.
It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in meQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 16 2010,07:24) Hi MB,
Paul never knew the man Jesus.
He only met him as the Spirit of Christ.
It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me
Hi Nick,I'm not sure which part of my post you are replying to. I don't believe I said that Paul knew Jesus on earth.
You are, however, mistaken that Paul didn't know the “man” Jesus. Of course he knew the “one mediator, the man Jesus Christ”. He probably knew Jesus better than most who actually listened to him while he was on earth.
And because Jesus is now in a spirit body does not mean that Jesus has somehow been “absorbed” by God's Spirit, like you seem to think. He is still a separate person with his own thoughts and will – not an extension of Jehovah like the Holy Spirit.
peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
He knew that the Lord is the Spirit.
He is still God's Son but alive with Abraham and Jacob et al by and in the one SpiritQuote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2010,04:45) Quote (SimplyForgiven @ May 14 2010,20:10) is that correct or …… is are ya seeing something differnt. i kind of jungled it up a bit, but im sure u can understand the points..
Hi Dennison,Sorry, but I'm not sure what the questions are.
peace and love,
mike
—————————–
Hi Dennison,What form is God in? Spirit, right? The Scripture says that Jesus, who was spirit, humbled himself to become flesh. That's all. There is no inference about Jesus actually BEING God Almighty, is there?
The same Paul that wrote this also wrote, “but for us there is one God, the Father”. Compare the other writings of Paul to make an educated guess as to whether Paul thought Jesus was in fact God before he came as flesh.
peace and love,
mike
hey mikeI think i was saying if you either agreed or disagreed with my remark, or saw something different with the points i mentioned.
and if you understood what im saying.
I learned that repeating what is read or explain helps with understanding. I see that there are alot of misunderstandings in debate just because we cant understand what the other is saying.Tomatoe, tomatoe
get what im saying?
I would agree that God is spirit, but i wouldnt limit him to what is only spiritual and add he is also physical.
Just because an atom, which we cannot see, is not something physical.
Or the wind, is that something elementaly physical or spiritual?
to make my point short, im talking about such things like eden, where God had part of what was both physical and spiritual. it was somewhat proportional living, Such as God having dominion and heaven, and man dominion over the earth.So idk, again i agree. but i see that almost a way to say God well u can only do things there are spiritual. the unseen movement of the will of God in all things. than again what is Spirit? is it just the unseen, or is the holiness about it? how do you view that? When God, jehovah came to the mountian with moses, there were alot of physical things going on.
Angels are they spiritual beings or physical? thats a hard one for me because how does an angel who has like a four differnt heads many times comes in a form of a visitor, or in a form of a human?
That an angel is so powerful and beautiful that even John in revelations who knew Jesus, bowed to it. and The Angel corrected him.
The real question here is whether God and limit himself.
The best arguemtn against Jesus being God is that God cannot Change.How can the unchangable God Change?
i think we need to get into more of a paradox view here.
because God states that he will forget your sins as if they never happened, yet the bible claims that He knows everything.
So How are both true? I would think the best explanation that there is a power of limitation, in others words a great power to forget, to erase. I think that just proves how Great God is that he can make himself forget.
Thats power. I tried makeing my self forget and i simply cant.Lets all try to forget about the forum…grrr..hmmmm… i cant…
I believe that God can limit himself.
The bible say that his eyes are to holy to see sin,
yet when sodom and gomora sin was so much, God came down and saw there sin. if that was literal or not idk. maybe God just finally saw how disgusting their sin was.
so God took care of it.There are alot of Paradoxes in the bible.
I see God limiting himself in many fashions. Even for sinners.
such as, He promsises Love and not hate for sinners, who belive but vise verse for those that dont.The Unlimited power of Limitation. We ourselves cannot limit God, nor ourselves. But God can Thats alot of power.
Than again if we let our minds get stuck on the word limitation, it will sound like blasphemy. But to be able to do anything even limit your self, is a powerful thing.
Imagine to look at your loved ones as if they never did anything to hurt you in your life, thats amazing.
To erase every hurt.Now with this said, Could God become human? become entirely physical and never sin?
Could God say, If they cant, i can!i received a phone call and my mind went blank.
so im going to stop here. lolbasic point is the what if question.
SF…………..> what do you do with this, Where it say GOD is not a man.
Num 23:19 ………> God is not a man the he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hat he said and shall he not do it? or has he spoken, and shall he not make it good.
So much for GOD being a Man or becoming a son of man, right?
peace and love to you and yours…………………..gene
Quote (RokkaMan @ May 02 2010,20:29) So this whole Anti T vs. Trinitarian deal needs to stop.
But the trinity doctrine is a false foundation and we should only build on the true foundation. Only that which is built on the true foundation will be able stand for eternity.hi SF
you say;There are alot of Paradoxes in the bible.
they only exist in your ignorance of the scriptures, wen you will grow in understanding they will disappear and become knowledge,
i have study the bible for 50 years and still going ,in the beginning of my learning it was the same to little knowledge for to many questions,
keep putting the word of God in your heart and it will make you a new man.
in the image of God
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