Are you happy that jesus died for you?

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July 29, 2010 at 12:01 am#206595

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (francis @ July 29 2010,05:33)

Hello Bodhitharta…

At first it was very difficult to understand what you were initially asking. I had to go through a few answers of yours before I can say I now think I understand the question you first asked… which is the title of the thread.

The following are some of your answers and questions in which you reworded your original question in an attempt to clarify your original question:

1)… If you knew that his death meant your salvation and it was your decision to crucify him or not, what would you do?

2)… I would like to say “Crucify him” but I know that wouldn't be right considering my own guilt so as much as I would detest my own punishment I would set him free seeing that he is innocent of any sins that I did. So would you say “Crucify him” and then carry it out and nail him to the cross?

3)… If you could spare Jesus the Cross at your own expense would you do it? Would you suffer for your own sins that the innocent might escape punishment?

4)… Would you wish that Jesus did not die for you? Do you love Jesus that much?

All the above were direct quotes from your answers and they were clarifying your orginal question which was: “Does your love of Jesus surpass your salvation because of his death?”

Here is my answer… based on my understanding of what you are trying to ask:

I often tell God… Jesus… that I'm so sorry that because of my sins that He had to die so that I might live. And so in effect, my shame and guilt and sense of justice does compell me to admit that I deserve to be in hell for the sins that I alone committed. And that it is not fair that Jesus was put into a situation where He had to decide to make the choice of voluntarily dying for my sins or not… when justice demands that I die for my own sins…. and not someone else.

My sense of Justice… and my love for Jesus… and the sorrow I feel because of the pain He bore for me… tells me that if I had the courage, I would sincerely want to be able to tell Jesus that because I love Him so much, I don't want Him to die for me… that I would rather die than have Him die. After all, i deserve to die for my sins… not Him. I am a sinner… He was not. I was guilty… He was not.

Indeed, I distincly remember that when I was newly born-again, I used to pray and tell God that I was willing to give up my salvation so that another person (like a member of my family) can go to heaven. I was in effect praying for the opportunity to give up “my seat”… if you will… in heaven.

Now whether or not I would actually have the courage to go thru with what my mind and heart says… who can really say how a person will act at the moment of such a difficult and life altering decision. Sometimes a person's courage fails them when tested under extreme circumstances. And staring at the future of having to spend an eternity in hell separated from God… being permantly separated from the pure expression of Love and Mercy and Kindness that is God… that would test any human's courage and resolve.

Having said that though… I think you're interesting hypothetical (and that is all it is) has some fatal flaws in it.

For example… if I say that I hate Jesus and reject Him… I go to hell. Equally true… if I love Jesus and don't want Him to die for me, but I decide to go to hell voluntarily for my own sins… I go to hell.

So here we can see that your hypothetical leads to the strange result that a person can hate and reject Jesus… and another person can love Jesus very much… and yet both will be going to hell. It appears that there is no real difference between hate and love… that it ultimately makes no difference one way or the other whether you love or hate. Now to me… when the end result is exactly the same for a person who either loves or hates Jesus… then that is a red flag that something might be amiss about how the hypothetical was orginally set up.

Your questions speaks about love on the part of humans, and about Justice… but it leaves out mercy and the idea of love as being part of the intrinsic nature of God. And if we honestly look at your question again… with all of this in front of us… then can we begin to see how your question is really mute and doesn't go anywhere.

——
So to put things in persepective, your scenario should look something like this. There we are, standing in front of God/Jesus. God has laid out the facts for us. We are sinners and because of our sins we deserve to die and be sent to hell. We groan and are saddened and terrified at the prospect of going to hell. But we also know that we deserve it because we are sinners. But then Jesus speaks up and says that because He loves us so much, He will die in our place.

Our first and immediate response is pure joy and relief that we don't have to go to hell. But then slowly, our sense of justice and our love for Jesus begins to dawn on us and we feel obligated to thank Jesus so much for His willingness to die for us… but because we love Jesus, we would rather pay our own debt so that Jesus doesn't have to suffer for us.

Now… your original question goes only that far. Indeed, in the above scenario, I have even answered in much the say way you did when you said:

“I would like to say “Crucify him” but I know that wouldn't be right considering my own guilt so as much as I would detest my own punishment I would set him free seeing that he is innocent of any sins that I did.”

In that sense, we both have answered similiarily.

But here is the problem. Your original question doesn't take into account the concept of “mercy” nor the fact that “love” is intrinsically a vital part of God's very nature. So in the above scenario your answer and mine won't simply end there, becaue of who God is.

Think about it. What do you think God's and/or Jesus' response will be to our similiar answer? Well, if love is an intrinsic part of God/Jesus… and if there is no greater example of love than the willingness to lay down your life for another… and if God/Jesus are merciful (granting us something that we don't deserve)… then our requests to be sent to hell for our own sins (motivated out of true love) will be brushed aside.

How can you “out love” God who's nature is love? You can't. God/Jesus… bound by His very nature… will voluntarily lay down His life in your place. His very nature will propel Him to the cross because of His love for us. So while our answers might be managamous and lofty and admirable and full of justice… it pales in comparison… and cannot stand against the force of love that God/Jesus is.

We don't deserve to have Jesus die in our place. But because of God's mercy, He will die in our place even though we don't deserve it… because that is what mercy is. And as much as we might be able to love Jesus… He loves us even more… and true to His nature… as a personification of love, He will voluntarily decide to die for us… and THERE IS NOTHING WE CAN SAY OR DO TO STOP HIM.

You can't stop love in action.

Well anyway… i apologize for being a bit lengthy. But I found your original question intriguing, and I wanted to put my two cents in.

It might be something worth considering… or it might not. I will let you decide.

Respecfully
Francis

Would you accept that according to your ideas of mercy that God then saved Jesus from the cross?

July 29, 2010 at 4:38 am#206656

francis

Participant

Hello Bodhitharta…

Quote

Would you accept that according to your ideas of mercy that God then saved Jesus from the cross?

Doesn't this question of yours assume that Justice does not need to be satisfied? That the death penalty (for sin) does not need to be satisfied as Justice demands? Doesn't your question also assume that Justice and Mercy cannot both be satisfied by God… that it must somehow be an either/or choice for God?

Respectfully
Francis

July 29, 2010 at 6:29 am#206662

Ed J

Participant

Quote (francis @ July 29 2010,15:38)

Hello Bodhitharta…

Quote

Would you accept that according to your ideas of mercy that God then saved Jesus from the cross?

Doesn't this question of yours assume that Justice does not need to be satisfied? That the death penalty (for sin) does not need to be satisfied as Justice demands? Doesn't your question also assume that Justice and Mercy cannot both be satisfied by God… that it must somehow be an either/or choice for God?

Respectfully
Francis

Hi Francis,

BD want's to make YHVH (according to BD) out to be a liar like his god Lucifer/Satan! (Gal.1:6-9 / 2Cor.4:3-4)
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not
eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God's word was at stake; for he said sin brings death (1John 2:2)
Romans 6:23: For the wages of sin is death; but the
gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
1John 2:2 And he(Jesus death) is the propitiation for our sins:
and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. (Isaiah 49:6)

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)

July 29, 2010 at 9:37 am#206671

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (francis @ July 29 2010,15:38)

Hello Bodhitharta…

Quote

Would you accept that according to your ideas of mercy that God then saved Jesus from the cross?

Respectfully
Francis

Cain killed Abel and his punishment was not death also God can vacate any penalty he chooses just like he did in Ninevah

So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
Jonah 3:4-6

Jonah 3:8-11 (King James Version)

8But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that is in their hands.

9Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?

10And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

God wants Mercy and NOT Sacrifice

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:6-8

For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:5-7

Notice that in Matthew 12: 6-8 he is telling them that they are CONDEMNING the guiltless, he is not saying he is paying some debt or payment he is saying that what they want to do to him is WRONG, so

Would you accept that according to your ideas of mercy that God then saved Jesus from the cross?

July 29, 2010 at 9:41 am#206673

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 29 2010,17:29)

Quote (francis @ July 29 2010,15:38)

Hello Bodhitharta…

Quote

Would you accept that according to your ideas of mercy that God then saved Jesus from the cross?

Respectfully
Francis

Hi Francis,

Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)

For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Acts 13:46-48

When this verse says commanded “Us” who is us? The Jews

July 29, 2010 at 10:47 pm#206732

francis

Participant

Hello Bodhitharta…

I understand that your beliefs differ from mine… and I undersand why (superficially anyway) this particular thread might have been put under the category/group called “Doctrinal Disagreements”.

And even though I don't agree with much of your faith and your understanding of God/Jesus… I still find that you do ask some very good questions and you rightly challenge Christians to think about what they are believing in. (As you also should do with your own beliefs) But I have just arrived on this forum, and I have not read everything you've written. But I can see right away that you have written many times in here.

I want to understand your position better and I want to try and understand where you are coming from because I love to be intellectually challenged. I take 1Peter 3:15 (Amplified) very seriously and I think all Christians should be taught how to develop and give a logical defense for the hope that is in them.

And so I look forward to reading your posts so that I can better understand where you are coming from, because in the future I would like to have the opportunity to try and answer some of your objections which you have about Christianity.
————————-

Point 1….

Having said that though, when I wrote to you, it was because I felt that your question (for this thread) did not belong under “Doctrinal Disagreements” because your question doesn't challenge any doctrines… not even any Christian Doctrine. I was challenging the meaningfulness of your question because of the way you set it up to begin with, because of its flaws… not the underlying assumptions that were hidden within it (although I don't agree with your assumptions).

You're hidden assumptions in the question should be discussed… and as far as I can see, they are being discussed in other threads. But as far as this thread is concerned… your question has nothing to do with “Doctrinal Disagreements”.

Look again at the questions you kept asking in the beginning and which were all directly aimed at clarifying your opening question:

1)… Does your love of Jesus surpass your salvation because of his death? (The opening question)

2)… If you knew that his death meant your salvation and it was your decision to crucify him or not, what would you do?

3)… I would like to say “Crucify him” but I know that wouldn't be right considering my own guilt so as much as I would detest my own punishment I would set him free seeing that he is innocent of any sins that I did. So would you say “Crucify him” and then carry it out and nail him to the cross?

4)… If you could spare Jesus the Cross at your own expense would you do it? Would you suffer for your own sins that the innocent might escape punishment?

5)… Would you wish that Jesus did not die for you? Do you love Jesus that much?

Because of the way you wrote your questions… all a Christian needed to do to answer and completely satisfy your OP is to answer with a “yes” or “no”… because that is ALL you were asking for. And neither does your question even suggest that either answer would be wrong.

And not once do any of your above questions challenge the doctrine of the Resurrection… or the doctrine of salvation the way Christians understand it.. etc, etc. Indeed, your opening question does the opposite because your question is assuming that Christianity is correct so that you can ask your question at all.
———————–

Point 2….

But that is not the end of the problems I have with your opening question. It simply makes no rational sense. How can a Christian… motivated out of love for Jesus… be able to choose to not crucify Jesus when Jesus was already crucified before the Christian loved Jesus?

In Romans 5:8 (Amplified) it says that Jesus was crucified for us while we still hated Him. “But God shows and clearly proves His [own] love for us by the fact that while we were still sinners, Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One) died for us.”

Can you not see that ultimately, your question is logically impossible in the first place? How can you ask a Christian who loves Jesus: “Would you wish that Jesus did not die for you? Do you love Jesus that much?”… when Jesus had already died for the Christian before they loved Him? Indeed, your question is directed at people who are alive today, and yet Jesus died long before anyone today was born. So it is an impossible question both spiritually and physically.
———————–

Point 3….

But that is not all… even if we were to suspend rationality for a moment to entertain your question… your question is still ultimately mute and meaningless for other reasons than it is logically impossible. Your question is directed at Christians (no one else)… and since your question assumes that Christianity is correct (you can't ask your question otherwise)… we know that God would reject a Christian's request to go to hell (If they were motivated out of their love for Christ).

God… being love… understands the sentiment in the request… but He is compelled by His nature to lay down His life for others as a full expression of His nature… which is love(there is no greater example of love than to lay down your life for another). You can't “out give” God in love and so God's expression of his love for you, will be expressed through the ultimate example of love which is dying for you. And that is why He will brush aside and make mute your desire to express your love for Him by taking the punishment your deserve yourself. Because His love for you will always be greater than your love for Him. He is infinite… we are finite.
——

Now… I want to make it clear that you are asking some good questions… and even if we are never able to agree with each other, I still want to understand where you are coming from and I am now in the process of reading some of your posts.

But as far as this particular thread is concerned, I don't think your question was a good rational one for the above reasons I've cited.

The question of why couldn't God just forgive sincerely repentant people like He did with Nineveh, instead of Jesus needing to have died… is an honest one and needs to be addressed.

But my reason for writing to you in the first place was only to challenge the rationality of your original question.

Respectfully
Francis

July 29, 2010 at 11:06 pm#206740

bodhitharta

Participant

Francis,

Your observations are correct and the question was irrational for the reasons you stated. I do not dispute the resurrection but I was asking a question to state an emotional principle of the Christian doctrine of salvation

It is possible however for a person alive today to state that they would not like the idea of anyone dying for their “evil” or that they are in-fact thankful for someone taking their punishment.

This would go along way to see if the Christian love Jesus “because” he took their place or because Jesus was obedient to God. there is a big difference.

Now, I notice you also speak about Jesus in the sense that he is GOD, is that true? Is that what you believe?

I am quite happy that I wrote something that would cause you to engage as it was written that way for that purpose.

Now, if we should discuss something let us do so deliberately as to be as clear as possible.

God Bless You:)

July 30, 2010 at 1:15 am#206762

francis

Participant

Hello Bodhitharta…

Do you have a website or a couple of threads in here which you feel explains very well your objections to Christianity? There are so many threads, and being new in here, it will take me a while to search. For example… it appears that you don't believe that Jesus was God Incarnate… that He was fully God and human while here on earth. It also appears that you don't believe that Jesus died on the cross. etc. So if you can point me to the threads you feel express your point of view… I will start reading them.

Respectfully
Francis

July 30, 2010 at 3:31 am#206785

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (francis @ July 30 2010,12:15)

Hello Bodhitharta…

Respectfully
Francis

Hi Francis,

I have so many threads and things to read but I will do better than that I will simply create a summary to the best of my ability.

I believe in progressive revelation which means I take the position that as God reveals new information my view is broadened.

I believe that what is called the Old Testament is true
What is called the New Testament is True
And what is called The Quran is True

I don't believe that Jesus is God simply because if it were true I believe the Bible would simply say that “Jesus Christ is God” The entire premise of God in the Quran is God makes things clear.

I believe and understand that Jesus Christ was sent as a sign of the Hour and a Mercy to mankind.

I don't believe or understand that Jesus is God incarnate although I do believe that Jesus is manifest proof of God and what I mean is Jesus makes the belief in God evident.

I understand that Jesus was willing to lay down his life and that the Jews plotted to KILL him and that God saved Jesus from the cross as recorded in the Quran

Jesus showed a willingness to be saved from that hour and I believe and understand that God responded to his plea.

I believe that GOD has the right and authority to save any and anyone he pleases for whatever reason he chooses as God is the judge of man and not man the judge of God.

I also believe and understand that if Jesus was God then God could not exalt him for how can God be Exalted when HE is the MOST HIGH?

A further proof that I understand is that according to the scriptures “If a man curses God he must bear his sins” If a person blasphemes the Holy Spirit, he will not be forgiven” but if a man blasphemes Jesus he can and will be forgiven and therefore Jesus cannot be God

God Bless You!

Asana

July 30, 2010 at 3:50 am#206790

Ed J

Participant

Hi Francis,

What BD is leaving out is: he doesn't believe any of The Apostle Paul's writings,
yet he quotes whatever part of the Bible that he thinks will bolster 'the quran'.
In saying he believes in the “New Testament”, he is being very disingenuous.

Ed J

July 30, 2010 at 4:57 am#206811

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 30 2010,14:50)

Hi Francis,

Ed J

Whatever I believe I believe in genuinely

July 30, 2010 at 12:24 pm#206865

theodorej

Participant

Greetings B…..How can you not love a guy who took a beating for you so you could live on…If you didn't love him you would certainly be gratefull for what he did for you…I would,and so would you..I don't see you as an ingrate…The crucifiction was symbolic of the Abramic form of sacrafice which required a spotless lamb to be offered for the remission of sins and the pleasure of the Eternal…Jesus fullfilled profhecy and conquered death so as to demonstrate Gods plan for all of us….Which is to be part of his family and dwell in his kingdom and his goverment…We all will get a chance to see and we will ask other how could it have been any other way…

July 30, 2010 at 12:34 pm#206866

theodorej

Participant

Quote (francis @ July 29 2010,15:38)

Hello Bodhitharta…

Quote

Would you accept that according to your ideas of mercy that God then saved Jesus from the cross?

Respectfully
Francis

Greetings Francis…….Justice is blind….The consequences of sin is death…we are speaking in terms of the second death which is eternal…With Jesus' sacrafice we became Justified in seeking mercy and forgiveness through repentance and this is done by petitioning the Father in Jesus name for the forgivness of sins….He stood up for us…so we could escape the second death which we all will be subject to at the judgement….

July 30, 2010 at 1:06 pm#206869

Stu

Participant

Quote (theodorej @ July 30 2010,23:24)

The pushing of this man-god martyr myth on others is a bit like a fence selling stolen goods in a pub, except at least if you commit the immoral act of receiving stolen goods you might get something useful out of it.

Stuart

July 30, 2010 at 3:46 pm#206881