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David,
You wrote:
Quote No, I do not believe animals die because of inherited sin. But, you believe that we do?
By the way, you skipped over my question about Romans 5:19, yet again. It is:
“Will all be made righteous? If not, why not?“
Quote (Ramblinrose @ Feb. 14 2006,21:19) Romans 3:10-12
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.If I am to use your logic “it means what it says” then according to the above verses that are NONE RIGHTEOUS. If there are NONE righteous then how can Yahshua have been righteous. The bible also states that there are righteous:
Genesis 7:1 And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
Luke 1:5-6 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless
Romans 3:10-12 you have quoted comes from Psalms 14 and 53
Quote Psalm 14:1 <> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. 2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. 3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD. 5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous. 6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge. 7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad. Psalm 53:1 <> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. 2 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. 3 Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 4 Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. 5 There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them. 6 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! When God bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.
The above verses are speaking of “The FOOL that hath said in his heart, There is no God”. These are the people that are corrupt, they work iniquity, they have become filthy.
Further in the verse you see that these people “eat up my people” so two parties are being discussed here.
There is non righteous of those fools who say there is no God.
Hi,
To say “there is none righteous” does not say there has been none righteous or in the future none will be righteous.
It surely means none NOW ARE RIGHTEOUS.We are all unrighteousness, filthy rags, but He who lives in us, bears witness of His righteousness in us. Forget your own righteousness,it doesn't exist, it will burn! The only thing that will stand is Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ's righteousness delivered onto us to good works, through the Holy Ghost.
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Feb. 14 2006,19:33) Sultan, I believe you are confusing the consequences of sin with the commission of sin. As RamblinRose has already said, death and destruction entered the world because of one man (Romans 5:12). The punishment for his sin has spread to all of his descendants. However, we are not guilty of his sin. He bears guilt for his own sin, as we bear guilt for ours.
Ezekiel 18:20 “… The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.”
As you have said, there is no other light. Scripture means what it says. Can you see any other way to read this passage other than the fact that we do not inherit sin guilt from our fathers?
Also, I am not sure how you are defining “sin”, but if you don't define it as scripture does, then you will have difficulty understand the whole counsel of scripture.
1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”
Deuteronomy 11:26-28 “Behold, I set before you today a blessing and a curse: the blessing, if you obey the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you today; and the curse, if you do not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside from the way which I command you today, to go after other gods which you have not known.”
In other words, sin is disobedience of YHWH's commands. Adam disobeyed YHWH in the garden. All of us have disobeyed YHWH in our own time and place, except for Yeshua. He is the only man who obeyed YHWH perfectly. That is his accomplishment. That is why he is called “Worthy”. If he obeyed YHWH because he had some special advantage over us, like “being born without hereditary sin”, then his accomplishments were superficial at best. But scripture says:
“Therefore, in all things He had to be made like His brethren, that He might be a merciful and faithful High Priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For in that He Himself has suffered, being tempted, He is able to aid those who are tempted.” – Hebrews 2:17-18
In short, sin is a choice. Infants don't make choices.
Isaiah 7:16
“For before the child shall know to refuse the evil and choose the good, the land that you dread will be forsaken by both her kings.”Yes, many children have been killed seemingly unfairly in the history of mankind, even by the command of YHWH, but judgment belongs to YHWH. What will happen to those infants in eternity is up to Him. They died because of the guilt of their fathers, not because they themselves were guilty. Sin destroys not just the sinner but those around him or her. Ask anyone who has a close friend or relative who is caught up in serious sin. Or ask Yeshua as he was hung on the accursed tree. Sin has consequences.
(By the way, have you ever looked at the reason YHWH gave for the destruction of those infants in the accounts that you quoted?)
Don't confuse the consequences of sin, and the fact that everyone except Yehsua has chosen to sin, with “hereditary sin”. The former two things are sad realities. The latter, “hereditary sin”, is a gnostic fiction.
Certainly WIT,
Jesus was like to to us in all ways but sin. He was not made different to us in sinless form.
He had no supernatural advantages or we cannot follow him. He overcame sin and perfectly fulfilled the Law.He learned obedience at the hand of his Father on earth
Thus, I believe that Christ's life as the Son of Mary gave him some degree of propensity towards sin, though not as us since he was also born by the holy spirit at birth.
Cubes, Jesus was tempted, is that what you are referring to? When you say, he had a propensity towards sin. But he is most definitely not the son of mary, so please, don't say that, He is the only begotten Son of The Lord Almighty God!
Quote (WhatIsTrue @ Feb. 15 2006,19:52) Cubes and T8, The question at hand is whether or not babies are born “with sin”, or more accurately, born guilty of sin. However, we can't even have a coherent dialogue on this subject without first defining what “sin” is. To me, that is the heart of this discussion. I believe that scripturally, sin is defined for us in 1 John 3:4:
“…sin is the transgression of the law.”
I don't think that babies are guilty of breaking the Law.
How do you define “sin”? Do you think that babies are guilty of this, (i.e. your definition of “sin”)?
Answering those two questions will clear up much potential confusion in this discussion.
Thanks.
Hi Wit,
Sin can be
Sin influence [Rom 7.15f]
Or
Sin Behaviour.[1Jn 3.4]Quote (sandra @ April 06 2006,23:46) Thus, I believe that Christ's life as the Son of Mary gave him some degree of propensity towards sin, though not as us since he was also born by the holy spirit at birth. Cubes, Jesus was tempted, is that what you are referring to? When you say, he had a propensity towards sin. But he is most definitely not the son of mary, so please, don't say that, He is the only begotten Son of The Lord Almighty God!
Hi sandra,
Lk 1.31
“And you will CONCEIVE IN YOUR WOMB amd bear a son and you will call him Jesus”
Matt 1.20
“..for that which has BEEN CONCEIVED IN HER is of the Holy Spirit”Only men are conceived. Jesus was like to us and Mary was his REAL mother.
God does all his works on earth by His Spirit so becoming a physical father to Jesus was also by His Spirit. But Christ was not filled with that Spirit till his baptism. Till then he suffered and learned just like one of us.
Quote (david @ Feb. 16 2006,04:59) Quote We are born with sin which is why a newborn baby may die having not necessarily “sinned.” The wages of sin is death. Death should have no effect on anyone if he/she is truly without sin.
I think the above is a good point by Cubes.The common Hebrew term translated “sin” is chat·ta´th´; in Greek the usual word is ha·mar·ti´a.
In both languages the verb forms (Heb., cha·ta´´; Gr., ha·mar·ta´no) mean “miss,” in the sense of missing or not reaching a goal, way, mark, or right point.
At Judges 20:16 cha·ta´´ is used, with a negative, to describe the Benjamites who were ‘slingers of stones to a hairbreadth and would not miss.’ Greek writers often used ha·mar·ta´no with regard to a spearman missing his target. Both of these words were used to mean missing or failing to reach not merely physical objects or goals (Job 5:24) but also moral or intellectual goals or marks. Proverbs 8:35, 36 says the one finding godly wisdom finds life, but the ‘one missing [from Heb., cha·ta´´] wisdom is doing violence to his soul,’ leading to death.
In the Scriptures both the Hebrew and Greek terms refer mainly to sinning on the part of God’s intelligent creatures, their missing the mark with regard to their Creator.
Now, being that we are tainted with imperfection as passed on from Adam and Eve, it seems that we may be missing God's mark of perfection. Of course, a perfect person such as Adam or Eve could still sin. But it seems that we imperfect creatures are plagued by sin.
Am I saying that babies purposefully or accidently sin (do bad things)? No, I'm saying that they miss the mark. I'm saying that they are born in a state of death. And the two are linked.
Hi david,
Where does scripture say Adam and Eve were made “perfect”?Nowhere.
But it does say God found His works to be “very good”
If scripture does not say something then we do not have a right to make statements in that regard do we?
Clearly Adam and Eve were not perfect for they had not yet come to the tree of life that they might live forever.
SO God had not completed His purpose for them at that time, perfect means complete.
As I understand it.Also I like what Nick said about sin behaviour and sin nature.
I see where the Word speaks of children OF disobedience, and disobedient children…Malcolm Ferris
Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food. The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
Genesis 2:16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;
17 “but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”How do you come to the conclusion that they had not eaten from the Tree of Life?
GENESIS 3:22
And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:This would be a pretty ineffectual everlasting life fruit if it could be cancelled by the intake of another fruit…
Hi RR,
It is written.
Gen 3.22
“Then the Lord God said
'Behold the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil;and now LEST HE STRETCH OUT HIS HAND,and TAKE ALSO FROM THE TREE OF LIFE, and eat, and live forever”Malcolm Ferris
Is the fruit from the Tree of Life not a fruit you would have to eat continuously? I think because we all eat fruit seems to conjure in my mind that you would eat from it again and again.
Depriving them from taking from it after having eaten from the Tree of Good and Evil by banning them from the garden could possibly indicate this.
Revelation 22:2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
It seems that the Tree of Life produces 12 fruits. This again maybe indicates that we would have to eat from it more than once.
This is not a subject I have looked into, I'm just tossing my thoughts out there.
Hi RR,
If eating from the tree of life caused one to live forever then why, if they had already eaten it, did they not live forever? You cannot live forever temporarily surely?Ramblinrose
Good question, I would love to know the answer to it…
GALATIANS 5:22-3 Speaks of 9 fruits of the Spirit.
The tree of life would be a source of life which is everlasting.
As such this would be I believe a tree everlasting.
The life of such a tree would be everlasting spirit then?..
In one sense I believe the trees seen in Revelation 22 to be representative of something.
One detail mentioned about them is that the leaves are for the healing of the nations…
But in another sense I see the tree of life to be a single Tree, as spoken of in Genesis.
Jesus said I am the TRUE vine and my Father is the husbandman, Is Jesus that Tree of Life spoken of in Genesis?…
When Jesus healed a blind man the man gradually got his vision back, he (the man who was blind) said – I see men walking as trees…Maybe you need to regularly eat from the Tree of Life to live forever.
YHWH had told them that if they ate from the Tree of Good and Evil they would die. They would therefore have to be stopped from eating from the Tree of Life.
They did not die immediately from eating from the Tree of Good and Evil.
God did not say they would die immediately, He said the day you eat it you will die.
They died within the day.
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