Are the sons of God the angels?

This topic contains 170 replies, has 0 voices, and was last updated by  NickHassan 1 year, 2 months ago.

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  • #819408
     t8 
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    Jodi and t8, why are you two arguing over a random meandering of some guy who (as both of you point out) is clearly missing ‘a few sandwiches short of a picnic’!

    In order to get a balanced view, you need to hear all arguments. If I was bias and only heard what I wanted to hear, then I might still be a Trinitarian. And while I thought this was a foundational doctrine, sometimes you have to listen to that which might seem heretical. Further, I wouldn’t say we were arguing. I think we were discussing and agreeing 🙂

    #819409
     Jael 
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    Jodi, the uniting of a man and a woman…

    Read the scriptures CAREFULLY.

    You will see that ‘WO-Man’ was created FROM the ‘Man’… Many people falsely read and say that God created Man and Woman ‘separately’ TOGETHER…

    No, God made ADAM only… Then TOOK a metaphorical ‘Rib’ and FROM that ‘Rib’ created a Woman.

    This metaphorical  ‘Rib’ is nothing PHYSICAL… It means ‘TRAITS AND ATTRIBUTES’.

    Such attribute include:

    – a WOMB

    – genital and functional breasts

    – vanity

    – Estogen for hair and softness of skin fueled by lack of testosterone (retained in the man)

    – other stuff.

    Check out in your mind these questions:

    1) How would Adam have PROCREATED if he had chosen one of the animals as a companion. (note, this is not talking about ‘To Have Intercourse With!!)

    2) What ‘Unity’ is brought about when a man and a woman come together as a wedded pair?

    #819410
     t8 
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    Jodi, it is certain that the Angels appeared in the guise of human beings. Where the scriptures states them as Angels it is only to ‘remind’ or ‘inform’ the reader that these were not creatures of mankind.

    Guise or do they have the ability to appear in physical form. It says we will be like the angels and Moses and Elijah probably appeared like angels with Jesus. My point is that we are physical beings and will inherit a body like Jesus and be like the angels. We will live on the new Earth too, and will we appear as physical beings? Not disagreeing but putting some ideas forward. I think this is a fascinating subject, i.e., the body and the resurrection body.

    #819411
     t8 
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    HI t8,

    Interesting what you said about messengers. My understanding is that when you die you sleep the sleep of death. As scripture says the dead know nothing, nor can they praise the Lord. Moses and Elijah seemed to have been awakened at times to deliver an important message though.

    The first fruits? It seems they may have been given their resurrection bodies already.

    At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…

     

    #819412
     Jael 
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    t8, and my point is that it is absolutely clear that the guy is talking untowards the truth …so why continue to discuss the falsity of his presentation when he cannot respond to explain. There are enough critically false claims to absolutely dismiss his video commentary.

    Discussing at length (too lengthy) a false claim is to be giving a testament to that falsity. It is not like a respondent in a forum who can attempt to justify himself – it’s just one of thousands of ‘home brewed, I’m a Jesus Christ – listen to me’ videos.

    Tell me then, what did you and Jodi learn from this rubbish video? That some guy thinks the men in Sodom wanted to have sex with demon Angels?

    Oh dear, it doesn’t sound true…does it… I mean, it couldn’t be true, could it? I mean, the men didn’t know they were heavenly Angels because Jude said they were men? But Genesis says they were Angels – so who is right?…….

    You see, a discussion about a false belief has been created and given life in this thread. WE KNOW the visitors were ANGELS IN THE GIUSE OF HUMAN MALES (Angels are never seen as Female!!!) so it is pointless discussing about a video where one person presents falsity in attempting to declare what is not even minutely credulous.

    I see the thread tentatively attempting to justify the video in a ‘Could it be that…’ manner. This is how some false teaching arise when doubt and wonder is impressed on a truth and falsity is brought in to help smooth a way to an answer:

    ‘I have a car that is a 57 Chevvy but I saw a utubes video where a man had a same car but he said it was a Pontiac… He said (…more nonsense…) so now I’m not sure. All my car documents say I have a Chevvy – and the guy next door has a car that looks like mine and he says his is a Chevy. Is he wrong? The guy in the video, he is wrong, isn’t he? Isn’t he? Or….!)

    #819413
     t8 
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    t8, and my point is that it is absolutely clear that the guy is talking untowards the truth …so why continue to discuss the falsity of his presentation when he cannot respond to explain. There are enough critically false claims to absolutely dismiss his video commentary.

    As mentioned before, it is good to hear alternate explanations. What that does is make you see new valid points if they are made. Often their questions can help fortify your own arguments too when they attack your view. And when you conclude that they are not making any sense, it also gives you more confidence in your beliefs. If we didn’t hear them out, then would we not be guilty of heaping teachers to ourselves that scratch our itching ears. I believe a truth seeker really wants the truth, and are not there to say they are right and I told you so. As such, they look high and low for the truth. Even when they have it, they test it and test the doctrine and the teachers. It is the wise thing to do.

    #819414
     t8 
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    Discussing at length (too lengthy) a false claim is to be giving a testament to that falsity. It is not like a respondent in a forum who can attempt to justify himself – it’s just one of thousands of ‘home brewed, I’m a Jesus Christ – listen to me’ videos.

    I wouldn’t call it discussing it at length. I think I dedicated one post to it. Ironically, I think I have now dedicated a few posts to talking about that one post that I made due to your questions. lol.

    #819415
     t8 
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    Jael. Okay, I made two posts, as I addressed two points. Although, I think they were still helpful to the topic. I have now made at least double that answering your concern on this though.

    #819416
     Jael 
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    Jodi, sorry, I thought ‘Dude’ was meant to refer to the guys in Sodom.

    Tue reason I might not [read/Understand] everything you are saying is that much of it is pointless. What I mean by that is that there is little point, if any, in attempting to understand how much the ‘Dude’ in the video is presenting falseness. If what he says is seen as false then why continue to expose that which is clearly wrong?

    Do you know that attempting to understand that which is wrong can lead you to attempt to believe it – to give it credit and put doubt on its wrongness. I have seen people write documents or ‘Balanced Critiques’ on issues they are researching and exactly because they feel they need to BE balanced, they give credit to anything that seems right even though it is obviously wrong : the ‘Could be’ factor!

    Truth of fact is, (I’ll say it again) ‘The best lie is 95% truth’. So, seeing the truth in a lie often draws people to believe [at least part of] the lie (‘It could be true; most of it seems true; so couldn’t that other little bit also be true – in some way!?)

    #819417
     Jael 
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    t8, what drew you to pick that video to ‘discuss’?

    Did it seem like the ‘Dude’ MAY have had some TRUTH about Angels and Sons of God?

    For me, I don’t see anything that would draw me to view it in full after the first load of nonsense, let alone create a discussion about how wrong he was – especially when he cannot respond!!

    This is one of the reasons I extremely rarely, if ever, bring external views into a discussion of this nature. Scriptures is the source. Everything external is just a personal point of view that carries no merit if it isn’t scriptural. Speculation cannot cut it. For every speculative proposal in someone’s favour there are ten opposing views! Who is correct?

    #819418
     Jael 
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    ‘be LIKE the Angels’… Not ‘BE Angels’.

    This is the same error many make when the scriptures says that ‘the Holy Spirit alighted on Jesus LIKE a Dove.’ Many many many, even after being enlightened, still say that the Holy Spirit WAS a Dove!!

    The APOSTLES and the ELECT of God, it is those who will ‘BE LIKE THE ANGELS’. Many, too many, people always claim themselves as part of the royal ‘WE’ that is reserved for the Saints.

    The glory that is for all believers is that all will receive GLORIFIED BODIES in the manner of Christ Jesus. Such persons will have incorruptible, everlasting and (by our standard) Miraculous bodies.

    Concerning Angels: the scriptures says that the world to come will no longer be ruled (be in subjection) by Angels.

    You can easily infer from this that the current world IS in subjection to Angels… And some of them are not completely ‘Holy’.

    Ive been trying to put this point in several posts but no one is taking it up: Satan was the Ruler of this world.

    He knew, though, that he was only a STEWARD, and that he would have to give it up to another – one of human standing.

    With this in mind, he attempted to persuade Jesus Christ to take charge ‘the easy way’ by Jesus simply bowing down to him (Satan). Of course this could not happen as it was a trick question. Bowing down to Satan would make Satan jesus’ God even as Jesus would rule over creation.

    Indeed, scriptures says that other Angels forsook their given ‘Station’ when they sought to engage with human females. These ‘Stations’ would suggest aspects of the management of the goings on in creation, perhaps those governing earthquakes and the ozone layer!

     

     

    #819419
     Jael 
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    t8, those ‘woken from their graves’ are not true resurrections. Those people would still go on to die again. Have you considered that although Jesus raised several people from the ‘dead’, notably Lazarus, these people are NOT ALIVE today…

    The true and everlasting first resurrection is YET to take place.

    #819420
     Jael 
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    I believe a truth seeker really wants the truth, and are not there to say they are right and I told you so. As such, they look high and low for the truth. Even when they have it, they test it and test the doctrine and the teachers. It is the wise thing to do.

    t8, I agree with this – but did the video present anything that was challenging that might be called truth?

    Absolutely not!

    As Jodi quickly pointed out, there were so many incorrect claims that the whole thing was laughable.

    If you feel you obtained anything to ‘enlighten’ you other than that some people talk hog-wash, then I give credit to your thoroughness.

    Once a falsify is found in a theory there need be no need to look further – what else, even seemingly RIGHT, could be wrong… And a tastey little tidbit you were toying with?(Satan is subtle and knows your thoughts!)

     

    #819421
     t8 
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    Yes, I feel that I have learned more about the opposing view and can refute it more easily. Further, there was always the chance that he asked a question or had a scripture that I had not seen nor had an answer. But as it stands, the outcome was once again predictable, and the view that I choose stands above what he was trying to say.

    Imagine in sport of the best team just didn’t bother playing other teams because they felt it a waste to go into a game knowing they were going to win. Just saying that would be arrogant, and I think there are people like that and they miss out on so much because not one of us has all truth.

    Jesus himself heard out the Pharisees and was able to rebuke them. He could of course had the view you seem to be espousing which is to what benefit do we even discuss or talk about such people. I hold to the view that even the evil, unrighteous, and those in error have much to teach us. Even if it is to not do what they do.

    BTW, I think this is the sixth post now about discussing why I should not discuss that video.  That is three times as much discussion.

    #819422
     t8 
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    Once a falsify is found in a theory there need be no need to look further

    May I remind you that the falsities he espoused in the beginning of the video were different subjects. Sure, it looked from there that his Sethite view would also suffer the same and I believe I was right in that assumption. Still, I like to know the other theories out there, even just for the purpose of knowing how to rebuke it if I come across it again. But also that I might actually learn something new too.

    #819423
     t8 
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    8, those ‘woken from their graves’ are not true resurrections. Those people would still go on to die again. Have you considered that although Jesus raised several people from the ‘dead’, notably Lazarus, these people are NOT ALIVE today…

    I tell you what I would consider Jael. Scripture and verse.

    I have: At that moment the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked and the rocks were split. The tombs broke open, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. After Jesus’ resurrection, when they had come out of the tombs, they entered the holy city and appeared to many people.…

    Please complete the picture for me using scripture and verse. I have provided what I believe, now your turn.

    #819424
     Jael 
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    So what have we learnt about ‘Sons of God’?

    Preface definition: ‘Son’ means ‘Him, the lesser, who does the works of him, the greater, who gave the works’.

    1) All creations of God that are sentient Spirits are Sons of God

    2) These are two: Angels (Spirit), and, Humans (Flesh with Spirit in the image of God, their creator)

    3) Angel sons of God, loyal to God, are Holy

    4) Angel sons that rebelled against God are Fallen Angels and are no longer Sons of God

    5) Fallen Angels are ‘Sons’ of Satan

    6) The debate is still open as to exact proof that ‘Demons’ are NOT a set of the Fallen Angels

    7) Initially all Angels could come into the physical world but some rebelled under the leadership of the master Angel, come to be known as Satan

    8) These rebel Angels are now restrained from the physical world but can mentally influence mankind if such ‘invites’ such an influence

    9) Holy Angels appeared to mankind in guises that very closely resembled a human being but more often, latterly, clothed in glowing white raiments. These latter once invoked fear in those they were sent to but reassured the receiver of their good intentions. Previous Angels were mainly almost fully human but close inspection (or a good perception) would reveal them as Angels…Always Male.

    10) It is notable that no Demonic or Fallen Angel has ever been shown as appearing as a human

    11) There is no such thing as a GHOST – a so-called Demonic spirit of a dead person.

    12) Angels, fallen or holy, are not to be confused with DEPICTIONS from the Middle Ages showing a pious almost apologetic feminine-like praying figure in a flowing gown and halo around the head. Angels are POWERFUL AND HIGHLY INTELLIGENT beings with a healthy fear of God and his Christ (Jesus)

    13) Many times an Holy Angel will speak the words of Almighty God, in the first person, as if ‘he’ was speaking of himself – or such that many readers of the scriptures claim it was Almighty God himself who was seen… Hardly so in the Moses-Burning bush incident!

    14) Holy Angels do not seek admiration nor glory for themselves or their deeds. They only reveal their name if it is a requirement for identification for a specific case.

    15) And scriptures warn us NOT to seek after Angels lest we sin and make them sin by seeking to worship them.

    #819425
     Jael 
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    16) Holy Angels MUST fulfil the task set to them by God…. God’s word must be fulfilled lest it be seen as issued in vain.

    #819426
     t8 
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    t8, what drew you to pick that video to ‘discuss’?

    It popped up in Youtube as a video I might like likely based on the video I had watched before. I often post up opposing videos and say as such in case people think I am posting it as support for what I believe. The purpose of these forums is to check out all things to see if they are so.

    …test all things. Hold fast to what is good.

    …do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God…

    John and Peter both warned of false teachers, and Jesus said they may come to us in sheep’s clothing. John said our duty is to “test the spirits,” and Paul said: “Test everything. hold on to the good.” Source: Matthew 7:15; 1 John 4:1; 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

    This forum and site has been testing out things for years nearly two decades now. It is nothing new.

    #819427
     t8 
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    6) The debate is still open as to exact proof that ‘Demons’ are NOT a set of the Fallen Angels

    6b) Likewise, the debate is still open as to exact proof that ‘Demons’ are a set of the Fallen Angels

    10) It is notable that no Demonic or Fallen Angel has ever been shown as appearing as a human

    This also gives indirect support that demons are not angels at all. The jury is out on this. The Book of Enoch certainly does not directly contradict scripture on this. It gives an explanation for demon spirits while the Bible just notes their influence and behaviour.

    13) Many times an Holy Angel will speak the words of Almighty God, in the first person, as if ‘he’ was speaking of himself – or such that many readers of the scriptures claim it was Almighty God himself who was seen… Hardly so in the Moses-Burning bush incident!

    Totally agree.

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