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The WHOLE redeemed creation worships the Father AND the Lamb (Revelation 5:11-13).
Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”13 And ALL CREATION which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
AND to the Lamb, forever and ever!”Premise 1: The WHOLE redeemed creation worships the Father AND the Lamb.
Premise 2: Anti-trinitarians do NOT worship the Lamb.
Conclusion: Therefore, anti-trinitarians are NOT members of the redeemed creation.Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 17 2013,21:26) The WHOLE redeemed creation worships the Father AND the Lamb (Revelation 5:11-13). Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”13 And ALL CREATION which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
AND to the Lamb, forever and ever!”Premise 1: The WHOLE redeemed creation worships the Father AND the Lamb.
Premise 2: Anti-trinitarians do NOT worship the Lamb.
Conclusion: Therefore, anti-trinitarians are NOT members of the redeemed creation.
hi jackyou mean “WORSHIP ” this word that mean a hundred thing and nothing in specific
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 17 2013,09:26) ……to Him who sits on the throne,
AND to the Lamb……
Hi Jack,The word “AND”, that you've capped, bolded and underlined, teaches us that “Him who sits on the throne” is one, and “the Lamb” is someone else.
It is God Almighty who sits on the throne, Jack. The Lamb OF God Almighty is Jesus, who is also the Servant OF God Almighty.
They both deserve blessing, honor, glory, and power forever and ever. But only one of them is God Almighty.
(I'm looking forward to the games this Sunday. For my son's sake, I will be rooting for your Ravens.
)KJ……Good to see you back brother hope all is well with you and your brother.
KJ Where do you see the words” they worshiped God and the Lamb” there. Now When the Angel who was talking to John in revelations spoke, he did not say worship Jesus, but told John to not worship him (the angel), but God, he did not include Jesus' name there KJ.
Peace and love to you and your KJ…………………………..gene
To all,
From what I have observed KJ is using hit and run tactics. He is attempting to use logical reasoning to support his believes which has the appearance of wisdom. The logic is flawed in what he infers but did not write. He infers only God can be worshiped but Scripture speaks of a time when the People worshiped both Yawheh; and David, the king.
David anointed is a subtype of Jesus Anointed and so since David was worshiped, Jesus is more deserving of worship by the People.
Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Jan. 17 2013,10:26) The WHOLE redeemed creation worships the Father AND the Lamb (Revelation 5:11-13). Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”13 And ALL CREATION which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying:
“Blessing and honor and glory and power
Be to Him who sits on the throne,
AND to the Lamb, forever and ever!”Premise 1: The WHOLE redeemed creation worships the Father AND the Lamb.
Premise 2: Anti-trinitarians do NOT worship the Lamb.
Conclusion: Therefore, anti-trinitarians are NOT members of the redeemed creation.
Good to see you Jack!Amen!
WJ
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2013,13:06) To all, From what I have observed KJ is using hit and run tactics. He is attempting to use logical reasoning to support his believes which has the appearance of wisdom. The logic is flawed in what he infers but did not write. He infers only God can be worshiped but Scripture speaks of a time when the People worshiped both Yawheh; and David, the king.
David anointed is a subtype of Jesus Anointed and so since David was worshiped, Jesus is more deserving of worship by the People.
KerwinBut David was not worshipped in any context with Jehovah.
Those passages Jack points out show Jesus getting the same “Blessing and honor and glory and power” as the Father.
Did they worship David as they worshiped Jehovah?
WJ
WJ, we worship God and the Lamb.
You rightly point out that God is the Father.But the Lamb is not the Father, so he is not the God in Revelation.
Revelation 22:3
No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him.Again you are mistaken WJ.
Have another go by all means.KJ, did you know that you will be held to account for these words, (and the division you cause by pushing false doctrine).
“Anti-trins are NOT member of the redeemed creation”.
Funny. The TrinStreet Gang has made another attack against the truth that the Father is the one true God and Jesus Christ his son.
They must have schemed a two pronged attack from another forum.
Funny IMO.
Who needs to watch a soap opera. Heaven Net has the best entertainment going.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2013,12:13) But David was not worshipped in any context with Jehovah.
David was not seated next to God like Jesus. Pretty obvious.Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,16:13) Did they worship David as they worshiped Jehovah?
This is the scripture Kerwin was talking about, Keith:1 Chronicles 29:20 King James Version
And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.What makes you think they didn't worship David as they worshiped Jehovah? Surely that thought isn't actually stated in that scripture, right? So what makes you so sure that the Israelites didn't give them both the same “worship”?
Could it be because you already know that David isn't actually Jehovah, but a son, prophet, anointed one, and servant OF Jehovah?
For these same reasons, the true believers of scripture know that nobody in scripture ever “worshiped” Jesus as they worship his and our God, Jehovah.
Quote (t8 @ Jan. 23 2013,09:44) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2013,12:13) But David was not worshipped in any context with Jehovah.
David was not seated next to God like Jesus. Pretty obvious.
T8.Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, GOD INTRODUCED HIS WOMAN THROUGH THE PROPHETS.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; GOD INTRODUCED HIS WOMAN THROUGH JESUS.
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the *word of his power*, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; PSALMS 110.
Hebrews 1:4 Being made so *much better* than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
Hebrews 1:5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, *Thou art my Son*, this day have *I begotten thee*? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me *a Son*? TO NONE OF THE ANGELS.
Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the *firstbegotten* into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God **worship him**.
Hebrews 1:7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
Hebrews 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, **Thy throne, O God**, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of *thy kingdom*. BECAUSE OF HIS EQUAL POWER *GIVEN* TO HIM,HE ALSO IS AS GOD.BUT HE IS STILL NOT THE FATHER.
Hebrews 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore *God*, even *thy God*, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. HIS GOD HAS ANOINTED HIM,TO BE AS GOD.
Hebrews 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of *thine hands*: GOD CREATED ALL THROUGH HIM.
JESUS IS THAT *SEED FROM HEAVEN* PUT IN MARY'S WOMB.GOD IS HIS FATHER,NOT ANY MAN.Hebrews 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Hebrews 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art *the same*, and thy years shall not fail.
Hebrews 1:13 But to *which of the angels* said he at any time, *Sit on my right hand*, until *I* make thine enemies thy footstool? NONE OF THE ANGELS.
Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
LET ALL THE ANGELS WORSHIP HIM,THAT INCLUDES US.
YOU HAVE THE SON; YOU HAVE THE FATHER.
YOU HAVE THE FATHER;YOU HAVE THE SON.wakeup.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,09:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,16:13) Did they worship David as they worshiped Jehovah?
This is the scripture Kerwin was talking about, Keith:1 Chronicles 29:20 King James Version
And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.What makes you think they didn't worship David as they worshiped Jehovah? Surely that thought isn't actually stated in that scripture, right? So what makes you so sure that the Israelites didn't give them both the same “worship”?
Could it be because you already know that David isn't actually Jehovah, but a son, prophet, anointed one, and servant OF Jehovah?
For these same reasons, the true believers of scripture know that nobody in scripture ever “worshiped” Jesus as they worship his and our God, Jehovah.
Mike……….I agree with you on this Jesus is not to be worshipped, we only worship God the Father. Jesus is a son of Man like we are He is not a GOD nor was he ever a GOD nor will ever be a GOD. The angel in revelation said to John not to worship Him but Worship GOD. He did not imply or mention Jesus' name there either.We should all come along side Jesus worshiping only the ONE TRUE GOD, Just as He did. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Jan. 24 2013,10:06) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 23 2013,09:59) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 22 2013,16:13) Did they worship David as they worshiped Jehovah?
This is the scripture Kerwin was talking about, Keith:1 Chronicles 29:20 King James Version
And all the congregation blessed the Lord God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads, and worshipped the Lord, and the king.What makes you think they didn't worship David as they worshiped Jehovah? Surely that thought isn't actually stated in that scripture, right? So what makes you so sure that the Israelites didn't give them both the same “worship”?
Could it be because you already know that David isn't actually Jehovah, but a son, prophet, anointed one, and servant OF Jehovah?
For these same reasons, the true believers of scripture know that nobody in scripture ever “worshiped” Jesus as they worship his and our God, Jehovah.
Mike……….I agree with you on this Jesus is not to be worshipped, we only worship God the Father. Jesus is a son of Man like we are He is not a GOD nor was he ever a GOD nor will ever be a GOD. The angel in revelation said to John not to worship Him but Worship GOD. He did not imply or mention Jesus' name there either.We should all come along side Jesus worshiping only the ONE TRUE GOD, Just as He did. IMO
peace and love to you and yours………………………..gene
Gene B.That is not correct.
We can only worship the father through the son,
because he is the mediator between God and man.NO MAN CAN COME TO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.we can not go straight to God,bypassing Jesus.
John 5:23 That all men should HONOUR THE SON, even as they HONOUR THE FATHER. He that honoureth NOT the Son honoureth NOT the Father which hath sent him.
wakeup.
Wakeup,
With which part of Gene's post do you disagree?
Did you know the Greek word “proskuneo” can either mean “God-worship” or “reverence given to any man”?
When Trinitarian translations render certain scriptures as “they WORSHIPED Jesus”, the word “proskuneo” is better translated “bowed before”, “did obeisance to”, or “showed reverence to”.
Here's how they “slant” their translations:
Matthew 18:26
The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’Did this man worship the king as if that king was God Almighty in Jesus' parable? Of course not. But the same Greek word, “proskuneo”, was used in that verse. Now, had that verse been about someone bowing down before Jesus, you can bet your bottom dollar that it would have been translated as “worshiped” by the Trinitarian Bibles. There are MANY such discrepancies in their translations. The rules change when it comes to Jesus – because they go out of their way to make the reader believe Jesus is God Almighty Himself – and that all the people in the NT somehow just “knew” this “fact”, and “worshiped” him as if he was God.
As for John 5:23: it doesn't mean that Jesus should receive the SAME honor as we give the Father. It means, “you guys honor my Father, you should also honor the Son He sent”.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Jan. 25 2013,13:44) Wakeup, With which part of Gene's post do you disagree?
Did you know the Greek word “proskuneo” can either mean “God-worship” or “reverence given to any man”?
When Trinitarian translations render certain scriptures as “they WORSHIPED Jesus”, the word “proskuneo” is better translated “bowed before”, “did obeisance to”, or “showed reverence to”.
Here's how they “slant” their translations:
Matthew 18:26
The servant fell on his knees before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’Did this man worship the king as if that king was God Almighty in Jesus' parable? Of course not. But the same Greek word, “proskuneo”, was used in that verse. Now, had that verse been about someone bowing down before Jesus, you can bet your bottom dollar that it would have been translated as “worshiped” by the Trinitarian Bibles. There are MANY such discrepancies in their translations. The rules change when it comes to Jesus – because they go out of their way to make the reader believe Jesus is God Almighty Himself – and that all the people in the NT somehow just “knew” this “fact”, and “worshiped” him as if he was God.
As for John 5:23: it doesn't mean that Jesus should receive the SAME honor as we give the Father. It means, “you guys honor my Father, you should also honor the Son He sent”.
Mike B.Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath HIGHLY EXALTED him, and given him a name which is ABOVE every name:
Philippians 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee SHOULD BOW, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Philippians 2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD THE FATHER.
To bow down to a king,or to kneel down to your lover is not worship,its a token of honour,or love.
But to bow down to some one as a token of worship,that is worshipping the person.
When you see Jesus appear; you will bow your knees.
He is second in charge.
You have the Son;you have the Father;you have the Father;you have the Son.wakeup.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 23 2013,04:13) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 22 2013,13:06) To all, From what I have observed KJ is using hit and run tactics. He is attempting to use logical reasoning to support his believes which has the appearance of wisdom. The logic is flawed in what he infers but did not write. He infers only God can be worshiped but Scripture speaks of a time when the People worshiped both Yawheh; and David, the king.
David anointed is a subtype of Jesus Anointed and so since David was worshiped, Jesus is more deserving of worship by the People.
KerwinBut David was not worshipped in any context with Jehovah.
Those passages Jack points out show Jesus getting the same “Blessing and honor and glory and power” as the Father.
Did they worship David as they worshiped Jehovah?
WJ
WJ and all,As Mike quoted a passage that reveals that, yes.
Here is where we are instructed not to worship angels, and so by inference we are not to worship mankind.
Colossians 2:18
King James Version (KJV)18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
The word translated worship in this passage is not even the same word that is wrongfully translated worship in other places. thréskeia is seemingly more correctly translated to worship or religion while proskuneó is more correctly translated homage, do obeisance, or I go down on my knees.
Gene,
Wakeup and others are right (from the few posts that I have read), we will not be alongside Jesus, but every knee will bow also to Jesus.Psalms 2,
[7] I will tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to me, “You are my son,
today I have begotten you.
[8] Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
[9] You shall break them with a rod of iron,
and dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.”
[10] Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
[11] Serve the LORD with fear,
with trembling
[12] kiss his feet,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way;
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.Whose feet is hidden in that?
Luke 7
[44] Then turning toward the woman he said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house, you gave me no water for my feet, but she has wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair.
[45] You gave me no kiss, but from the time I came in she has not ceased to kiss my feet.
[46] You did not anoint my head with oil, but she has anointed my feet with ointment.
[47] Therefore I tell you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much; but he who is forgiven little, loves little.”
[48] And he said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”
[49] Then those who were at table with him began to say among themselves, “Who is this, who even forgives sins?”
[50] And he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”
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