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Quote (kerwin @ April 10 2010,12:28) Scripture calls these two angels, who passed the tests Jesus proposed to prove they have a physical presence, men. I doubt these two angels are human beings but rather they only resemble human beings.
Hi Kerwin,This shows that angels, which are spirit beings, can take on the form of a man. And we know that Jesus could take on the form of a man. But what does it mean that Jesus “lowered himself” to take on the form of a man? Doesn't that imply that he wasn't a man before he lowered himself? And if he went back to his former self after being raised, and his former self wasn't a man, how can he be a man now?
I read it as whatever form Jesus was in before he came to earth as a man, is the form he is now in.
And as far as no man can see God and live, check out Judges 13,
Quote Judges 13:22 NIV
“We are doomed to die!” he said to his wife. “We have seen God!”And was Moses allowed to see God? Exodus 33 says:
Quote 19 And the LORD said, “I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” Now here, it seems to me that Jehovah is meaning “no man”, not literally “no one”. I imagine that the angels and Jesus can actually see Him, although I don't know of any Scripture that specifically says so.
peace and love,
mikeMikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote This shows that angels, which are spirit beings, can take on the form of a man.
May I ask where in that scripture you see evidence the two angels mentioned were ever insubstantial beings. It is not there. I merely pointed out what was written and not any conjectures based on what is not.
Also that it was Jesus who proposed those two tests to prove he was not an insubstantial spirit. You now propose that he was an insubstantial spirit that had the ability to take on flesh even though you have no real evidence that is the case.
If flesh is as bad as you accuse it of being then why would an angel want to take it on?
Judges 13 is the account of a couple seeing an angel of God and stating that they saw God. It is the Hebrew way of looking at angels who are stand-ins for the Almighty. If you read the story of Hagar she also claims to have seen God though all she saw was an angel, Genesis 16:7-14. It seems obvious that there was and possibly still is a Hebrew belief that when one sees a certain angel it is a sign of one’s forthcoming death. Manoah’s wife countered that belief with her argument.
Exodus 33 is a better example but it only states one can not see God’s face and live. Moses saw his back and so saw God.
Exodus 33:23(NIV) reads:
Quote : Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.”
In verse 11 we are told:
Exodus 33:11(NIV) reads:
Quote The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.
I still think we are addressing conversations with angels who are stand-ins for God as Paul teaches us that the Law of Moses was put into effect through angels by a mediator, Galatians 3:19. The mediator being Moses.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote Now here, it seems to me that Jehovah is meaning “no man”, not literally “no one”. I imagine that the angels and Jesus can actually see Him, although I don't know of any Scripture that specifically says so.
You had a good question so I checked a Hebrew Lexicon and the Hebrew word speaks of the human race or those descended from Adam. Jesus is a descendant of Adam. The question then becomes do you have any scripture which states Jesus has seen the face of God and if so then why is he an exception to the rule. Here is two scriptures that can be applied to Jesus but it can also be applied to any righteous human being or those seeking righteousness.
Job 33:26(NIV) reads:
Quote He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy; he is restored by God to his righteous state.
And
Psalms 24:6(NIV) read:
Quote Such is the generation of those who seek him, who seek your face, O God of Jacob. Selah
Exodus 33:19 is definitely an interesting scripture which God has not yet given me understanding of in relation to a number of other scripture, some of which I have named.
Mike………GOD is SPIRIT, no man can see SPIRIT. It's Just that simple. Just as no man can see the SPIRIT or INTELLECT that is (IN) YOU or anyone else either. Spirit Is Thought you can't see thought you can only see what it produces. Just as we can know the hidden things of GOD by the things that are created. They tell Us about HIM. Jesus said He spoke to us about the Father in Proverbs , but a time will come when He will show us openly about the Father. Jesus presented GOD one Way , but there is another way to understand Him. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Hi Kerwin,
You said:
Quote May I ask where in that scripture you see evidence the two angels mentioned were ever insubstantial beings. Do you think they lived as men on earth from their beginning to their end? Where did they come from? Where did they go after Sodom was destroyed?
You said:
Quote If flesh is as bad as you accuse it of being then why would an angel want to take it on? I have never stated anything good or bad about flesh. You are applying something JA said to me.
You said:
Quote It seems obvious that there was and possibly still is a Hebrew belief that when one sees a certain angel it is a sign of one’s forthcoming death. Where did that belief come from? Could it be from God saying no one can see Him and live?
You said:
Quote Moses saw his back and so saw God. You play word games not with me, but with the One who said, “No one 'of the human race' can see me and live.”
You said:
Quote You had a good question so I checked a Hebrew Lexicon and the Hebrew word speaks of the human race or those descended from Adam. Jesus is a descendant of Adam. Thank you, it is then as I assumed. But is Jesus a descendant of Adam in the same way we all are? Who was the father that impregnated Mary? Even while on earth, Jesus was different than any other man.
And you didn't addresss the point that if Jesus “lowered himself” to become a man, was he not something more than a man before? When restored to his previous glory and position, would he not go back to his “something more than a man” form?
I have posted some of 1 Cor 15 before. I suggest you read verses 35 to 54 for as complete of an explanation as we are allowed for the time being. I'll highlight some of it here:
Quote 35But someone may ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 38But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.
40There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another.
42So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. 45So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so let us bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. 51Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Do you notice verse 45? Jesus became a spirit, and has a spiritual body. He now is a “man” of heaven, which is different than a “man” of earth. So while it can be said that the “man” Jesus Christ is our mediator, it is clear to me that he is not a “man” like a human being, in heaven.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2010,07:28) Hi MB,
Jesus BECAME A SPIRIT?
What tradition teaches you this?The Lord is THE Spirit.
Hi Nick,It's right there in the Scripture I quoted:
Quote “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
Yes.
He is now eternally one with the Spirit of God.
He has become for men the source of that Spirit uniting us to his God as well.But he is not an independant spirit.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2010,08:42) Hi MB,
Yes.
He is now eternally one with the Spirit of God.
He has become for men the source of that Spirit uniting us to his God as well.But he is not an independant spirit.
Hi Nick,I've noticed comments like this from you before. Do you think that Jesus is not a separate entity from God? Do you believe him to be, as the Scriptures teach, the Son of God – a living being with his own mind and will?
peace and love,
mikeHi MB,
Jesus was not the same entity as his Father.
He was filled with His Father's Spirit at the Jordan.
Then he died and his own life spirit left him at Calvary.
Now he only lives with all the LIVING in the Spirit of his GodThat they may be one..[Jn17]
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote I have never stated anything good or bad about flesh. You are applying something JA said to me.
Please accept my apologies. I will strive to keep my conversations from getting confused in the future.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote Do you think they lived as men on earth from their beginning to their end? Where did they come from? Where did they go after Sodom was destroyed?
I assume they ascended to one of the heavens but evidence is that an angel can stand right in front of our eyes and we will not know he is there except God reveals his presence to us.
Numbers 22:31(NIV) reads:
Quote Then the LORD opened Balaam's eyes, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the road with his sword drawn. So he bowed low and fell facedown.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote Where did that belief come from? Could it be from God saying no one can see Him and live?
I do not know though I know of a similar belief in other culture. It is possible it came from what God told Moses but I have no evidence one way or another.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote You play word games not with me, but with the One who said, “No one 'of the human race' can see me and live.”
I merely think in writing and was writing the obvious. The obvious being the scripture was speaking of God’s face and not merely seeing God. I also pointed out apparent contradictions in scripture and that I believe it need further thought and research.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote But is Jesus a descendant of Adam in the same way we all are? Who was the father that impregnated Mary? Even while on earth, Jesus was different than any other man.
Jesus has no father as per sexual intercourse but the same can be said of identical twins who are the result of mitosis not meiosis. Jesus unlike identical twins, whose actual parents is the cell that divided, was the result of some type of Parthenogenesis set in motion by God. In this way genetically Mary was both his father and his mother. God introduced some fairly massive genetic changes as well since Jesus is male and not female. In short Jesus is the result of a miraculous conception but he is still genetically a human being.
How was Jesus different then other men? I do admit he had more authority even when in the seen world.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote Do you notice verse 45? Jesus became a spirit, and has a spiritual body
The life giving spirit is the Holy Spirit which is why those who live by it will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, John 14:26.
I agree that there is a spiritual body but that body has flesh that has a physical reality just like the tree of life in the Garden of Eden has a physical reality even though it dwells in the third heaven.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote And you didn't addresses the point that if Jesus “lowered himself” to become a man, was he not something more than a man before? When restored to his previous glory and position, would he not go back to his “something more than a man” form?
Could you please give me some scriptures so I have the context of what you speak of. Thank you!
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2010,09:07) Hi MB,
Jesus was not the same entity as his Father.
He was filled with His Father's Spirit at the Jordan.
Then he died and his own life spirit left him at Calvary.
Now he only lives with all the LIVING in the Spirit of his GodThat they may be one..[Jn17]
Hi Nick,That's what I thought you were saying when I saw the other posts, I just didn't suppose you actually meant it. Jesus is alive and well as our King and Lord. He will have a throne in New Jerusalem as his Father also will. He is a real person, Nick, not the spirit of God. God's spirit flows through him as it flows through us. But we are not God's spirit, nor is Jesus.
Before you ask, I'll ask. Can you show me any Scriptures that support your idea that Jesus is a figment of God's spirit, not an individual?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (kerwin @ April 12 2010,09:27) I merely think in writing and was writing the obvious. The obvious being the scripture was speaking of God’s face and not merely seeing God. I also pointed out apparent contradictions in scripture and that I believe it need further thought and research.
Hi Kerwin,Agreed. There are a few seemingly contradicting Scriptures. But I believe to my core that the Bible is the inspired word of God, and that the contradictions result from a combination of my lack of understanding and the translations.
Do you think angels are human beings or spirit beings?
You said:
Quote How was Jesus different then other men? For one:
Quote Matthew 1:18 NIV
This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.That in itself would make him different than all other humans.
You said:
Quote The life giving spirit is the Holy Spirit which is why those who live by it will enter the kingdom of heaven. Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, John 14:26. I agree that Jesus is not the Holy Spirit. Tell that to Nick, not me.
But do you deny the Scripture says or implies that Jesus “became a life giving spirit”?
About “lowering himself”, you said:
Quote Could you please give me some scriptures so I have the context of what you speak of. Thank you! Philippians 2:5-11. Can you tell me where I can find mention of the seven different heavens?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2010,13:55) Hi MB,
God is spirit
The Lord is the Spirit.
You can commune with God and His Son in that Spirit.
Hi Nick,No, I can communicate with God only through His Son, Jesus Christ, the PERSON who came to earth to be my savior. The PERSON who sits at the right hand of my God as a mediator between Him and me. He is my Lord and King. He is a PERSON. God has sent another DIFFERENT helper, the Holy Spirit. But that helper is not Jesus Christ.
Show me where Jesus is no longer a living PERSON.
peace and love,
mikeMikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote Do you think angels are human beings or spirit beings?
They are not human beings as they are not descendants of Adam. There are many types of angels and some, such as the Cherubim, do not even resemble human beings. To say that one characteristic, except their righteousness, is true of all of them is presumptuous. I can speak of some such as those that visited Lot. They appeared to be humans in outer form, had a physical presence, and ate human food.
According to the Greek Lexicon at searchgodsword.com one definition of ”pneumatikos” which is translated “spiritual” is “belonging to the Divine Spirit “ and I believe angels come from such a realm. Because they come from the spiritual realm they are spirits. I am not sure “spiritual” is the best translation as it confuses people. On the other hand I can not thing of any other word to translate it to except perhaps heavenly.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote That in itself would make him different than all other humans.
He would still be a human being, though one that was the result of a miraculous conception and not the normal process of fusion or either a later split of one human being into two or the combination of two into one. We have test tube children today and possibly will have cloned humans in the future. The bottom line is they all will have the human genotype just like Jesus.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote
\
But do you deny the Scripture says or implies that Jesus “became a life giving spirit”?I do not believe it does but I have just come up with an angle that means I will need to go back and do some research on that. Still, I have trouble ascribing the roll of the Holy Spirit to Jesus though it may be similar to calling an angel God because the angel is standing in for God.
MikeBoll64 wrote:
Quote Philippians 2:5-11. Can you tell me where I can find mention of the seven different heavens?
I find seven different heavens is a Jewish teaching that is consistent with Paul’s mention of the third heaven in 2 Corinthians 12. Christianity being the true bough of the Hebrew religion the teaching is probably true in one form. I believe it is also a Catholic teaching. We have forgotten our Hebrew roots though some might consider them unimportant.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 10 2010,12:35) Quote (thethinker @ April 10 2010,12:14) What are you talking about? I don't know about all other instances because I have not delved into the name “Christ” everywhere it is used in the genetive. Why would it matter?
Hi Thinker,My thought is this…. If there are other instances that Christ was genetive, but is translated as “with” to make sense of the Scripture, I want to know. I want to find an example of the genetive form of Christ where the word “of” would make absolutely no sense at all. I think there might be something in the Greek language – some kind of rule like the Hebrew “plural of majesty” thing- that says the word Christ, while being genetive, is not correctly translated as “of”. If there is, that means you knew about it, and purposely withheld it for selfish reasons.
Maybe I'm wrong, but wish me happy hunting, won't you?
peace and love,
mike
Mike said:Quote …that says the word Christ, while being genetive, is not correctly translated as “of”. If there is, that means you knew about it, and purposely withheld it for selfish reasons.
Whatever you say Mike. You are the searcher of men's hearts.thinker
Quote (kerwin @ April 13 2010,00:14) Because they come from the spiritual realm they are spirits. I am not sure “spiritual” is the best translation as it confuses people. On the other hand I can not thing of any other word to translate it to except perhaps heavenly.
Hi Kerwin,You are correct that they are spirit beings, not men.
Quote Hebrews 1:14 NIV
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?You said:
Quote We have test tube children today and possibly will have cloned humans in the future. The bottom line is they all will have the human genotype just like Jesus. We can't say for sure what genotype would result from a human mother and God through His Holy Spirit as a father. But I'm sure none of those test tube children or clones were fathered directly by God. There had to be something different about him for the demons to know who he was the first time they saw him, don't you think?
You said:
Quote I do not believe it does but I have just come up with an angle that means I will need to go back and do some research on that. Still, I have trouble ascribing the roll of the Holy Spirit to Jesus though it may be similar to calling an angel God because the angel is standing in for God. It doesn't say he is the Holy Spirit. It implies he is now a spirit creature like the angles, except we've learned from Paul that he is superior to them. And remember that Scripture where God says Moses can't see His face? Check this out:
Quote Matthew 18:10 NIV
“See that you do not look down on one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.Add it up:
1. Jesus “lowered himself” to become a man.
2. He was raised to at least his previous glory and position.
3. God made him “a little lower than the angels” for awhile.
4. He is now superior to the angels.
5. Angels can see the face of God, men can't.
6. He became a life giving spirit.
7. He has the most esteemed position in heaven at the right hand of God.
8. Flesh and blood cannot enter heaven.How can all this be true, and Jesus still be a man?
You said:
Quote We have forgotten our Hebrew roots though some might consider them unimportant. I don't have any Hebrew roots. I am very happy that the God of the Hebrews has decided to let the other nations join in worshipping Him, though. And that He has allowed people from all nations the chance to be His children. Praise Jah!
peace and love,
mikeQuote (thethinker @ April 13 2010,03:44) Mike said: Quote
…that says the word Christ, while being genetive, is not correctly translated as “of”. If there is, that means you knew about it, and purposely withheld it for selfish reasons.Whatever you say Mike. You are the searcher of men's hearts.
Hi thinker,I've already found three. Do you know of any? Yes or No?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 12 2010,12:56) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 12 2010,09:07) Hi MB,
Jesus was not the same entity as his Father.
He was filled with His Father's Spirit at the Jordan.
Then he died and his own life spirit left him at Calvary.
Now he only lives with all the LIVING in the Spirit of his GodThat they may be one..[Jn17]
Hi Nick,That's what I thought you were saying when I saw the other posts, I just didn't suppose you actually meant it. Jesus is alive and well as our King and Lord. He will have a throne in New Jerusalem as his Father also will. He is a real person, Nick, not the spirit of God. God's spirit flows through him as it flows through us. But we are not God's spirit, nor is Jesus.
Before you ask, I'll ask. Can you show me any Scriptures that support your idea that Jesus is a figment of God's spirit, not an individual?
peace and love,
mike
hi MB,King Jesus will rule from the throne of David for 1000 years.
He is alive forever in the Spirit of his God.
God will be in him as Spirit.
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