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Quote (Lightenup @ May 15 2010,15:27) Quote (Lightenup @ May 13 2010,02:16) Mike, Again…my point with the Arm of the Lord is that the Arm can be, if not always, another being. Who do you think the Arm is in this passage:
Jer 27:5
5 “I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.
NASUJohn chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1 will help you answer this.
And who is the arm here:
Ps 136
136 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 17 To Him who smote great kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 18 And slew mighty kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 20 And Og, king of Bashan, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 21 And gave their land as a heritage, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 24 And has rescued us from our adversaries, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 25 Who gives food to all flesh, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
NASUYou forgot to answer the above questions.
Hi Mike,
I keep thinking that you will answer this but maybe you have been distracted.I'm just sitting here-getting older and waiting, Mike,
Hi Kathi,You are right, I have been distracted. But we're all getting older second by second, right?
In Jeremiah, the “outstretched arm” is God's power and authority. Jehovah says He created the heavens and the earth alone. But we also know that all things came to exist through, or by means of, Jesus. Does it mean that God created elements, and Jesus as the master craftsman put them together into living beings? I don't know, do you?
It might be like when I fix something on the car, and my 9 year old boy “helps” by handing me tools and such. I actually fixed the car “alone”, but my son could tell his mom that “we” fixed the car. Similar to when your daughters were younger and “helped” you bake a cake. Could you have done it without them? Sure. Could they have done it without you? No.
Jesus compared to us is a giant. But how great is he really when compared to his God? But you could correctly say that in this case, Jesus was the power and authority of God manifested in a particular being, and therefore was acting as God's outstretched arm.
In the Psalm, the outstretched arm is still God's power and authority – as it ALWAYS is. But this time, if you do apply it to a person other than God, it must be applied to Moses. It was Moses who raised the staff to divide the Red Sea, not “Jehovah the Son”. It was Moses who spoke the word that the firstborns of Egypt would die, not Jesus. And it was Moses, not Jesus, who held the staff up high so the Israelites could win the battle, remember?
Okay Kathi, I answered yours – now please answer my last post.
peace and love,
mikeHi Kathi,
As an afterthought: Although Moses spoke the word about the firstborns, it was an angel of Jehovah that did the killing. That angel could also correctly be ascribed as being God's oustretched arm in this instance.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 16 2010,07:04) Hi Kathi, As an afterthought: Although Moses spoke the word about the firstborns, it was an angel of Jehovah that did the killing. That angel could also correctly be ascribed as being God's oustretched arm in this instance.
The Angel disagrees with you Mike. He claimed that He Himself was the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.2 And the Angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed. 3 Then Moses said, “I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.”
4 So when the LORD saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, “Moses, Moses!”
And he said, “Here I am.”
5 Then He said, “Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.” 6 Moreover He said, “I am the God of your father—the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.” And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God. Ex. 3:2-6Note what the narrative CLEARLY says Mike. It says that the Messenger manifested Himself as a fire in the midst of the bush. It says that it was God that called out to Moses from the midst of the bush. Therefore, the Messenger was God Mike.
thinker
Hi TT,
Indeed it was God in the angel that was speaking.
You are stuck in a time warp of confusion.
Understand vesselsQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,09:15) Hi TT,
Indeed it was God in the angel that was speaking.
You are stuck in a time warp of confusion.
Understand vessels
It does not say that it was God “in” the Messenger speaking. You are revising the narrative.In Genesis 18 Hagar called the Messenger who spoke with her “The God who sees me”.
These narratives are CLEAR Nick!
thinker
Hi TT,
Yes you will remain confused till you come to grasp spiritual wisdom.
Carnal analysis of scripture will never grasp truth.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,09:31) Hi TT,
The man in the tombs spoke with Jesus.
Was his name LEGION?
Hagar thought the Messenger was God. The Messenger said to her, “I will multiply your seed.” Why didn't the Messenger say, “The Lord shall multiply your seed”? Gabriel did not speak to Mary the way the Messenger spoke with Hagar. Gabriel said, “the power of the Most High shall….”But the Messenger who spoke with Hagar said “I shall….”
Why do you stumble at the word of God Nick?
thinker
Thinker ………..So you are in diversion, so why did Jesus and John say no one has seem GOD at any time, John saw Jesus right? But He later said (NO ONE) has seen GOD, so should that not tell you Jesus was NO GOD.
1 Jo 4:12…> (NO) man has seen GOD at (ANYTIME). If we love one another GOD (DWELLS) (IN) US.
GOD is SPIRIT Thinker no one (CAN SEE SPIRIT)(INTELLECT) , it is impossible to see. God has never bee seen He is (EXPERIENCED), by all He manifested Himself in various ways to those he choses to reveal himself to. “GOD WHO SPOKE UNTO US IN TIMES PAST HAS IN THESE LATER DAYS SPOKEN TO US THROUGH A SON. God cannot be seen, Thinker, Jesus (disclosed) him to us as God gave him the word to speak to us. God can and will be in (ALL) and Though (ALL). IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2010,09:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,09:31) Hi TT,
The man in the tombs spoke with Jesus.
Was his name LEGION?
Hagar thought the Messenger was God. The Messenger said to her, “I will multiply your seed.” Why didn't the Messenger say, “The Lord shall multiply your seed”? Gabriel did not speak to Mary the way the Messenger spoke with Hagar. Gabriel said, “the power of the Most High shall….”But the Messenger who spoke with Hagar said “I shall….”
Why do you stumble at the word of God Nick?
thinker
Hi TT,
Was the name of the man in Mk 5 and Lk8 LEGION?Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,10:03) Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2010,09:58) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,09:31) Hi TT,
The man in the tombs spoke with Jesus.
Was his name LEGION?
Hagar thought the Messenger was God. The Messenger said to her, “I will multiply your seed.” Why didn't the Messenger say, “The Lord shall multiply your seed”? Gabriel did not speak to Mary the way the Messenger spoke with Hagar. Gabriel said, “the power of the Most High shall….”But the Messenger who spoke with Hagar said “I shall….”
Why do you stumble at the word of God Nick?
thinker
Hi TT,
Was the name of the man in Mk 5 and Lk8 LEGION?
What has it to do with the Messenger who said to Hagar, “I will multiply your seed”? Was the Messenger a liar? And why would you compare a man possessed with devils with the Messenger of Jehovah? Is this the best you can do?Now answer: Why did the Messenger say to Hagar “I will multiply your seed”? Why didn't the Messenger who spoke to Hagar get it right like Gabriel who said, “The power of the Most High shall over shadow you”?
thinker
Hi TT,
God uses many vessels in many different ways.
Trying to confine His ways to your regime will never work.Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 15 2010,15:00) Quote (Lightenup @ May 15 2010,15:27) Quote (Lightenup @ May 13 2010,02:16) Mike, Again…my point with the Arm of the Lord is that the Arm can be, if not always, another being. Who do you think the Arm is in this passage:
Jer 27:5
5 “I have made the earth, the men and the beasts which are on the face of the earth by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and I will give it to the one who is pleasing in My sight.
NASUJohn chapter 1 and Colossians chapter 1 will help you answer this.
And who is the arm here:
Ps 136
136 Give thanks to the Lord, for He is good, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 2 Give thanks to the God of gods, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 4 To Him who alone does great wonders, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 5 To Him who made the heavens with skill, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 6 To Him who spread out the earth above the waters, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 7 To Him who made the great lights, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 8 The sun to rule by day, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 9 The moon and stars to rule by night, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 10 To Him who smote the Egyptians in their firstborn, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 11 And brought Israel out from their midst, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 12 With a strong hand and an outstretched arm, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 13 To Him who divided the Red Sea asunder, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 14 And made Israel pass through the midst of it, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 15 But He overthrew Pharaoh and his army in the Red Sea, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 16 To Him who led His people through the wilderness, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 17 To Him who smote great kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 18 And slew mighty kings, For His lovingkindness is everlasting: 19 Sihon, king of the Amorites, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 20 And Og, king of Bashan, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 21 And gave their land as a heritage, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 22 Even a heritage to Israel His servant, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 23 Who remembered us in our low estate, For His lovingkindness is everlasting, 24 And has rescued us from our adversaries, For His lovingkindness is everlasting; 25 Who gives food to all flesh, For His lovingkindness is everlasting. 26 Give thanks to the God of heaven, For His lovingkindness is everlasting.
NASUYou forgot to answer the above questions.
Hi Mike,
I keep thinking that you will answer this but maybe you have been distracted.I'm just sitting here-getting older and waiting, Mike,
Hi Kathi,You are right, I have been distracted. But we're all getting older second by second, right?
In Jeremiah, the “outstretched arm” is God's power and authority. Jehovah says He created the heavens and the earth alone. But we also know that all things came to exist through, or by means of, Jesus. Does it mean that God created elements, and Jesus as the master craftsman put them together into living beings? I don't know, do you?
It might be like when I fix something on the car, and my 9 year old boy “helps” by handing me tools and such. I actually fixed the car “alone”, but my son could tell his mom that “we” fixed the car. Similar to when your daughters were younger and “helped” you bake a cake. Could you have done it without them? Sure. Could they have done it without you? No.
Jesus compared to us is a giant. But how great is he really when compared to his God? But you could correctly say that in this case, Jesus was the power and authority of God manifested in a particular being, and therefore was acting as God's outstretched arm.
In the Psalm, the outstretched arm is still God's power and authority – as it ALWAYS is. But this time, if you do apply it to a person other than God, it must be applied to Moses. It was Moses who raised the staff to divide the Red Sea, not “Jehovah the Son”. It was Moses who spoke the word that the firstborns of Egypt would die, not Jesus. And it was Moses, not Jesus, who held the staff up high so the Israelites could win the battle, remember?
Okay Kathi, I answered yours – now please answer my last post.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
Well, I do think that Moses was certainly a servant but not necessarily considered the Arm of the Lord. Read this:Isa 51:9-11
9 Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the Lord; Awake as in the days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
10 Was it not You who dried up the sea, The waters of the great deep; Who made the depths of the sea a pathway For the redeemed to cross over?
11 So the ransomed of the Lord will return And come with joyful shouting to Zion, And everlasting joy will be on their heads. They will obtain gladness and joy, And sorrow and sighing will flee away.
NASUI suggest that the Arm of the Lord was the Son. Moses wasn't involved with all of the above, was he?
Also, in your example of your son helping you fix the car…maybe it was more like this:
You sat on a stool at the side of your car and told your nine year old everything that he was to do to fix your car, and he obeyed all instructions and the car was fixed. That would make you a pretty impressive instructor and your son a pretty impressive student. You fixed your car by your word and he fixed your car by his obedience. Remember in creation the Bible says that all things came into being by the word of God, yet it was also by the Son. Just a thought.In other words, I don't think the Son just handed the Father the tools. I think of Him more as the genius prodegy taught by the genius master teacher.
I believe that my understanding of Him is greater than what your understanding is.
If you were to decide which commandment you thought about Jesus being in, would you think of Him as Lord or as your neighbor?
Matt 22:36-40
36 “Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?”
37 And He said to him, ” 'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.'
38 “This is the great and foremost commandment.
39 “The second is like it, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.'
40 “On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”
NASUQuote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,10:14) Hi TT,
So you cannot answer the question but want to move on?
Nick,
Your question is not valid. You are being evasive. It was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses and said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”. Then it says that Moses was afraid to “look upon God.” Therefore, the Messenger was God.What has a man possessed with devils to do with this? First Mike says that Jesus is a god “in the same sense” that satan is a god. Now you compare the Messenger of Jehovah with a man possessed with devils.
thinker
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,22:12) Hi Kathi, You said:
Quote Hi Mike,
Isaiah wrote as if things took place that were prophecies of future events at times.Agreed. Like the return from exile in Babylon which hadn't happened yet at the time he wrote about it. The return that happened because of the “arm” of Jehovah – His power. In this case that power manifested itself in the form of Cyrus, Jehovah's anointed. I'm sure you know that anointed basically means, “set aside or chosen for a special purpose”, right?
You said:
Quote Anyway, my point with the Arm of the Lord is that the Arm can be, if not always, another being. Wait a minute. I thought you believed the arm to ALWAYS be “Jehovah the Son”. It sounds like you are closer to the truth now. The “arm” signifies one's power, or capability to accomplish something. Jehovah has used His arm to show His power in a number of ways. Thunder, hail, earthquakes, Jesus, Cyrus, angels – just to name a few. Just because His Son was the one He sent to fulfill His purpose on one occasion, doesn't mean His arm is ALWAYS represented by His Son.
Here is some information with Scriptures that might help:
A limb of the human body. The Hebrew and Greek terms for “arm” (zeroh′a‛; bra‧khi′on) are often used figuratively in the Bible to represent the ability to exert strength or power. (Ge 49:24, ftn; Job 22:8, ftn; compare Lu 1:51.) The “arm” of Jehovah God is immeasurably powerful, able to do marvelous creative works. (Jer 27:5; 32:17) By his “arm” Jehovah also rules (Isa 40:10; Eze 20:33), saves those in distress (Ps 44:3; Isa 52:10), delivers his people (Ex 6:6; Isa 63:12; Ac 13:17), supports and cares for them (De 33:27; Isa 40:11; Ho 11:3), judges (Isa 51:5), and scatters his enemies (Ps 89:10; Lu 1:51). Breaking the arm represents shattering one’s might. (Job 38:15; Ps 10:15; Jer 48:25) Through Jesus Christ, clothed with authority and power and acting as Judge and Executioner, Jehovah manifests His might, represented by His “arm.”—Isa 53:1; Joh 12:37, 38.
The arm of flesh, representing human power, is described in the Bible as unreliable and failing the one trusting in it. Jehovah warns his people of the fallacy and disaster of trusting in the human arm. (2Ch 32:8; Jer 17:5) He will break the arm of the wicked, which is described as resting oppressively on their victims.—Job 35:9; 38:15; Ps 10:15.
The more I think about your beliefs, the more I am concerned. You have invented a second God. That is in direct violation of everything Jehovah taught about gods.
I don't know what it is about you and the trinitarians that makes you have this need to elevate Jesus higher than was ever taught in Scripture. Is it you immense love for him? Because I love him too. I love him enough to worship the way both he and his God taught.
Did Jesus ever tell us to worship him? Did he ever say that he was also God? At least the trinitarians try to disguise their three gods as one God, so they can think they are keeping with Scripture. But not you. You just blatantly admit that you worship two separate gods. Wow.
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike,
In general, I see the Arm of the Lord as it could be the Son of God in the OT. I can't say that other's can't be called that but I don't find anything that says another is clearly His Arm like was said about the Son. I have only found one place where it is possible that Cyrus is considered as an arm but I am not sure:NASB ©
biblegateway Isa 48:14
“Assemble, all of you, and listen! Who among them has declared these things? The LORD loves him; he will carry out His good pleasure on Babylon, And His arm will be against the Chaldeans.Also, I do know what anointed means, thanks.
You have provided many references about the 'arm' and we can see that strength or power is not the only thing that the arm is figurative for. Someday I will look at all those references.
Quote The more I think about your beliefs, the more I am concerned. You have invented a second God. That is in direct violation of everything Jehovah taught about gods. You believe in a second God too remember…John 1:18, the only begotten God. Do you serve that only begotten God also?
Quote Did Jesus ever tell us to worship him? Did he ever say that he was also God? The Father did.
Quote (thethinker @ May 19 2010,12:23) Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 19 2010,10:14) Hi TT,
So you cannot answer the question but want to move on?
Nick,
Your question is not valid. You are being evasive. It was the Messenger of Jehovah who appeared to Moses and said, “I am the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob”. Then it says that Moses was afraid to “look upon God.” Therefore, the Messenger was God.What has a man possessed with devils to do with this? First Mike says that Jesus is a god “in the same sense” that satan is a god. Now you compare the Messenger of Jehovah with a man possessed with devils.
thinker
Hi TT,
So Jesus spoke with a man in the tombs.
Then he asked what his name was and got the answer LEGION.
Later it tells us in Mk5 that the man was demon possessed and had a LEGION.So do you understand how this human vessel was occupied and that Jesus was speaking to them in him and not him?
Do you know how God too wants to abide in men by His Holy Spirit and speak through them too?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 12 2010,22:12) The more I think about your beliefs, the more I am concerned. You have invented a second God. That is in direct violation of everything Jehovah taught about gods.
Yea like when YHWH says…Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: “before me there was NO GOD FORMED, neither shall there be after me“. Isa 43:10
And…
And in all things that I have said unto you be circumspect: and “MAKE NO MENTION OF THE NAME OF OTHER GODS, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth“. Exod 23:13
And…
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, “and that there is NONE OTHER GOD BUT ONE“. 1 Cor 8:4
But watch out for the title confusion tricks, because the way it goes is there is no gods but one, BUT, (theres that word but) there are other gods.
YHWH says there is no God but one. Therefore all other so-called “gods” (1 Cor 8:5) are false.
Mike says there is only one God, yet he says Jesus is “a god”, yet he is not his god, which means to Mike Jesus is not “a god” at all, I think! If he is “a god” then who's god is he?
Mike says Jesus is his Lord and Savour, but not his god. Please tell us how that works Mike!
You ask Kathi about her beliefs but how about yours?
WJ
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