Answering jodi lee's nonsense

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:16)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2010,01:48) Hi LU, Jesus spoke and acted in his Father's name and authority. Do you agree? Nick, Yes, I agree and I think He did this before His birth too but not as an angel.

Hi LU,
Do you have any evidence for these claims?

[Lightenup]

Quote (Ed J @ April 16 2010,02:32)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:14) Thanks EdJ, I can see some truth in what you say about the “Yah” in Jesus' name. But who do you think is talking to Abraham in Gen. 18? Hi LightenUp, What does Gen.18 have to do with God's Name being the first part of Jesus' name? Ed J

EdJ,
I am thinking that the man that is 'Jehovah' in Gen. 18 is the Son of God who, when He became a man, was given the name Jehovah saves, Yehowshu'a.

OT:3091 u^Wvohy=
Yehowshuwa` (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); or Yehowshu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); from OT:3068 and OT:3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader: -Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare OT:1954, OT:3442.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2010,02:56)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2010,01:48) Hi LU, Jesus spoke and acted in his Father's name and authority. Do you agree? Nick, Yes, I agree and I think He did this before His birth too but not as an angel. Hi LU, Do you have any evidence for these claims?

Nick,

The Bible says that the other two men were angels, not the third.
Also, we know that the Son of God existed before Abraham was born.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 15 2010,13:57)

Quote (thethinker @ April 15 2010,11:37) The Messenger who appeared to Moses in the burning bush is Jehovah God. He claimed to be the “God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.” Moses asked Him His name and He said, “I am that I am” (Exodus 3). Hi Thinker, Do you think it was really the angel doing the talking?  The disciple Stephen didn't.  Remember the guy who was only able to see the glory of Jehovah because, as Jehovah says in Exodus 33:20, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.”?  The same guy who WAS able to see Jesus, which proves that Jesus is not Jehovah. But Stephen is going to help you with this Exodus problem you've been having, too.  He says in Acts 7:30-32, Quote 30 “After forty years had passed, an angel appeared to Moses in the flames of a burning bush in the desert near Mount Sinai. 31 When he saw this, he was amazed at the sight. As he went over to look more closely, he heard the Lord's voice: 32 'I am the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.' Moses trembled with fear and did not dare to look. Who's voice?  The messenger's?  No, the Lord's.  Besides, if Jesus teaches that a messenger is not as great as the one who sent him, how could that messenger be an equal member of the godhead?   Now go and apply what you've learned to the other Scripture you posted, and you'll see that the words come from Jehovah, even if He is not the one directly talking.  It is the same way the Scriptures work.  The Scriptures are God's words said through many different persons.  Only one of them, however, is Jehovah.   peace and love, mike

Mike,

Your argument is circular dude! Stephen does not “help” me but he confirms my conclusion. The Messenger was the Lord. That's why Stephen said he heard “the Lord's voice.” The words came from Jehovah because the Messenger was Jehovah.  

Quote

…Exodus 3:2-6 seems quite conclusive in equating “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” with God. Verse 2 states that the Angel [messenger] of the LORD was in the burning bush. Verse 4 says that after Moses turned aside to see the wonder, the Lord saw him, and “God called unto him in the midst of the bush.” As George Bush notes, “The phraseology shows that the term 'Lord' here is used interchangeably with 'Angel.' “ Again, Exodus 3:6 is very clear when it records this Angel [messenger] as saying, “I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face for he was afraid to look upon God.” …note Judges 6, where Gideon's meeting with the “angel [messenger] of the LORD” is recorded. In verse 12, “the angel [messenger] of the LORD appeared to Him” and began to speak. In verse 13 Gideon replied. In verse 14 the narrative continues, “The LORD looked upon him, and said.” And so as the story unfolds, “the LORD” and “the angel [messenger] of the LORD” are used interchangeably. Again and again the Bible equates this Messenger with God (Christ in the Old Testament, James a Borland, Moody Press, p. 38, all brackets and emphasis mine).

The book I cited above is a textbook from one of my courses in Bible College. The copyright on the book cited above is 1978 and contains an excerpt from trinitarian George Bush who wrote his book in 1850. He also cites Henry Cowles who was a contemporary with Bush.

See the link below for a very brief summary on the identity of the messenger of the Lord.

http://www.journeyintothebible.com/jitb-en…._01.pdf

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,04:35)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2010,02:56) Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:16) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 16 2010,01:48) Hi LU, Jesus spoke and acted in his Father's name and authority. Do you agree? Nick, Yes, I agree and I think He did this before His birth too but not as an angel. Hi LU, Do you have any evidence for these claims? Nick, The Bible says that the other two men were angels, not the third. Also, we know that the Son of God existed before Abraham was born.

Hi LU,
The Lord is the Spirit.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (Gene Balthrop @ Mar. 19 2010,16:41)

Thinker ………Your position on the TRINITY and PREEXISTENCE is the greatest Nonsense, being discussed here by far. IMO

With that statement I will say something.  The trinity doctrine is one thing, but to lump the preexisting into it is wrong.  There are very good Scriptures that tell us that Christ was in Heaven with His Father as the Word before the world was.  But you and Jodi both have been denying those Scriptures over and over again…
Col. 1:15-17 tells us that He was the firstborn of all creation.  You have Children and a Child that was first?  We do, He is a Son and later came more, but that makes the first our Firstborn Son.  He also was the firstborn of the death
Col. 1:18 so that in all He may have preeminence….meaning He was first in all, firstborn of all creation and firstborn of the death.  
Then He asked His Father that He wanted to go back where He was before in
John 17:5
He was the Word or Spoken Word of God.
Rev. 19:13 shows this too.
“He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood and His name is
The Word of God.
verse 16  And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written    KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
We all know who that is, don't we?    
A few more Scriptures in
John `1:15, 3:17, 6:38, 8:58
Do yourself a favor and study these…..
Peace and Love Irene

[mikeboll64]

Quote (thethinker @ April 17 2010,05:57)

Mike, Your argument is circular dude! Stephen does not “help” me but he confirms my conclusion. The Messenger was the Lord. That's why Stephen said he heard “the Lord's voice.” The words came from Jehovah because the Messenger was Jehovah.

Hi Thinker,

Okay. Follow it through for me, please. God Almighty came as an angel? It says a messenger OF the LORD. Is the LORD His own messenger? What you and Kathi imply is that Jesus came as a messenger OF the LORD, but then people all of a sudden recognized the messenger OF the LORD AS the LORD.

Just answer this: Can Jehovah be a messenger OF Jehovah?

peace and love,
mike

[942767]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 17 2010,14:58)

Quote (thethinker @ April 17 2010,05:57) Mike, Your argument is circular dude! Stephen does not “help” me but he confirms my conclusion. The Messenger was the Lord. That's why Stephen said he heard “the Lord's voice.” The words came from Jehovah because the Messenger was Jehovah. Hi Thinker, Okay.  Follow it through for me, please.  God Almighty came as an angel?  It says a messenger OF the LORD.  Is the LORD His own messenger?  What you and Kathi imply is that Jesus came as a messenger OF the LORD, but then people all of a sudden recognized the messenger OF the LORD AS the LORD.   Just answer this: Can Jehovah be a messenger OF Jehovah? peace and love, mike

Or, Perhaps Jehovah was speaking through the Messenger, by His Spirit?

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 16 2010,22:58)

Quote (thethinker @ April 17 2010,05:57) Mike, Your argument is circular dude! Stephen does not “help” me but he confirms my conclusion. The Messenger was the Lord. That's why Stephen said he heard “the Lord's voice.” The words came from Jehovah because the Messenger was Jehovah. Hi Thinker, Okay.  Follow it through for me, please.  God Almighty came as an angel?  It says a messenger OF the LORD.  Is the LORD His own messenger?  What you and Kathi imply is that Jesus came as a messenger OF the LORD, but then people all of a sudden recognized the messenger OF the LORD AS the LORD.   Just answer this: Can Jehovah be a messenger OF Jehovah? peace and love, mike

Mike,
I think the Son was more than a messenger of the Most High God, He was also the agent by which His God did things.

[Ed J]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,04:05)

Quote (Ed J @ April 16 2010,02:32) Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:14) Thanks EdJ, I can see some truth in what you say about the “Yah” in Jesus' name. But who do you think is talking to Abraham in Gen. 18? Hi LightenUp, What does Gen.18 have to do with God's Name being the first part of Jesus' name? Ed J EdJ, I am thinking that the man that is 'Jehovah' in Gen. 18 is the Son of God who, when He became a man, was given the name Jehovah saves, Yehowshu'a. OT:3091 u^Wvohy= Yehowshuwa` (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); or Yehowshu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); from OT:3068 and OT:3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader: -Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare OT:1954, OT:3442.

Hi LU,

Gen.2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil(in the midst of the garden)(Gen.3:2),
              thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (Ed J @ April 17 2010,01:46)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,04:05) Quote (Ed J @ April 16 2010,02:32) Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:14) Thanks EdJ, I can see some truth in what you say about the “Yah” in Jesus' name. But who do you think is talking to Abraham in Gen. 18? Hi LightenUp, What does Gen.18 have to do with God's Name being the first part of Jesus' name? Ed J EdJ, I am thinking that the man that is 'Jehovah' in Gen. 18 is the Son of God who, when He became a man, was given the name Jehovah saves, Yehowshu'a. OT:3091 u^Wvohy= Yehowshuwa` (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); or Yehowshu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); from OT:3068 and OT:3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader: -Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare OT:1954, OT:3442. Hi LU, Gen.2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil(in the midst of the garden)(Gen.3:2),               thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj,
We are not to stop thinking, we are to take every thought captive, and we are to gain understanding. It is good to think. Thinking is a gift. It is something that we are designed to do.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,17:23)

Mike, I think the Son was more than a messenger of the Most High God, He was also the agent by which His God did things.

Hi Kathi,

Yet you think that the messenger OF Jehovah that is written about is “Jehovah Junior”, or Jesus.

[Ed J]

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,17:56)

Quote (Ed J @ April 17 2010,01:46) Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,04:05) Quote (Ed J @ April 16 2010,02:32) Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:14) Thanks EdJ, I can see some truth in what you say about the “Yah” in Jesus' name. But who do you think is talking to Abraham in Gen. 18? Hi LightenUp, What does Gen.18 have to do with God's Name being the first part of Jesus' name? Ed J EdJ, I am thinking that the man that is 'Jehovah' in Gen. 18 is the Son of God who, when He became a man, was given the name Jehovah saves, Yehowshu'a. OT:3091 u^Wvohy= Yehowshuwa` (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); or Yehowshu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); from OT:3068 and OT:3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader: -Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare OT:1954, OT:3442. Hi LU, Gen.2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil(in the midst of the garden)(Gen.3:2),               thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Edj, We are not to stop thinking, we are to take every thought captive, and we are to gain understanding.  It is good to think.  Thinking is a gift. It is something that we are designed to do.

Hi LU,

Where in Chapter 18 of Gen does it say that “all three” MEN (Gen.18:2) were NOT all angels?
Do you 'think' it wise to change what Scripture says?

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[Lightenup]

Quote (Ed J @ April 17 2010,02:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,17:56) Quote (Ed J @ April 17 2010,01:46) Quote (Lightenup @ April 17 2010,04:05) Quote (Ed J @ April 16 2010,02:32) Quote (Lightenup @ April 16 2010,18:14) Thanks EdJ, I can see some truth in what you say about the “Yah” in Jesus' name. But who do you think is talking to Abraham in Gen. 18? Hi LightenUp, What does Gen.18 have to do with God's Name being the first part of Jesus' name? Ed J EdJ, I am thinking that the man that is 'Jehovah' in Gen. 18 is the Son of God who, when He became a man, was given the name Jehovah saves, Yehowshu'a. OT:3091 u^Wvohy= Yehowshuwa` (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); or Yehowshu`a (yeh-ho-shoo'-ah); from OT:3068 and OT:3467; Jehovah-saved; Jehoshua (i.e. Joshua), the Jewish leader: -Jehoshua, Jehoshuah, Joshua. Compare OT:1954, OT:3442. Hi LU, Gen.2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil(in the midst of the garden)(Gen.3:2),               thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org Edj, We are not to stop thinking, we are to take every thought captive, and we are to gain understanding.  It is good to think.  Thinking is a gift. It is something that we are designed to do. Hi LU, Where in Chapter 18 of Gen does it say that “all three” MEN (Gen.18:2) were NOT all angels? Do you 'think' it wise to change what Scripture says? God bless Ed J http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Edj,

Quote

Gen 19:1 19 Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening as Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them and bowed down with his face to the ground. NASU

Clearly the third “man” was identified as Jehovah (see Gen 18)…there is no doubt of that. Jehovah is not an angel although an angel can come in His name. If that is the case the Bible makes that clear. Regarding this story, the third “man” is never referred to as an angel, only as Jehovah.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Gen18.2
..THREE MEN were standing opposite him..

It is Abraham who speaks to GOD as MY LORD and calls himself YOUR SERVANT.

THEY replied and asked him questions.

Later it says
“THE LORD said to Abraham..”

They were angelic vessels for the Lord God as Spirit and Abraham knew it? He spoke to GOD in the vessels.

[Lightenup]

Nick,
Well, two of them were angels. The term “angelic vessels” is a non-Biblical term, Nick. The third was the Jehovah and He was the one talking to Abraham. The other two went on to Sodom and spoke to Lot and led Lot and his wife and two daughters out of harms way. I find it interesting that they took the wife out of harm's way and then soon after she turns into a pillar of salt. It seems to me that the angels left a little too soon. Just goes to show you that when angels give you orders, you need to obey them. I'm don't understand why she couldn't turn around and look at what was happening to the land that she had lived in. I can understand her concern. Abraham got to look at the smoldering land and nothing happened to him.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
God is not a man though men would love to remake Him as one..
Scripture speaks of three men with none any different to any other.

Abraham addressed THEM yet spoke to THE LORD.

Why is that?

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Did Jacob wrestle with an angel or with God?[Gen 32, Hos12]
Such misunderstandings are common.

[Lightenup]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 17 2010,20:16)

Hi LU, God is not a man though men would love to remake Him as one.. Scripture speaks of three men with none any different to any other. Abraham addressed THEM yet spoke to THE LORD. Why is that?

Nick,
Angels aren't men either.

It seems as though Abraham was familiar with the appearance of the Jehovah that he was talking to. He knew He was a divine being and realized that he was merely dust and ash compared to who he was speaking with and he also knew that who he was speaking with could destroy the land of Sodom. He also knew that who he was speaking with would not destroy the righteous with the wicked. Abraham knew that he was not talking to a man even though His appearance was like a man.

The three “men” were only in appearance as men, they were not men at all.

[NickHassan]

Hi LU,
Again they are often mistaken for them.
Are you now saying they were all men in Gen32?

[Author]

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