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Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,05:38) Quote (JustAskin @ April 09 2010,05:24) How amazing TT. “Believe in God and believe also in Me” – This means Jesus is God….???
“Believe in my father and believe in me also” – This means I am my father!!
“believe that the heavens and the earth will last forever and believe also in me” – I am heaven and earth!!
“Believe that this drill will make a hole in that piece of wood, and believe in me [as a workman]” – I am a drill!!!
Anyone else wanna join in – don't!! – only one man should die for the sins of another!
Uh yeah dude! If Jesus was not God He would be telling His us to commit idolatry.thinker
Hi TT,
Why should believing in the Son of God be idolatry?
You cannot find God's salvation unless you do.Yahweh saves.
Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,05:49) Quote (terraricca @ April 09 2010,03:58) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,02:54) Quote (terraricca @ April 09 2010,01:15) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,22:16) Is. 1:18 said to Mikeboll: Quote 1. There are no grammatical cues for a switch in subject from Yeshua to the Father. None. 2. It's not in keeping with the context of the letter. The background to the Hebrews letter was intense persecution being suffered by the first century christian readers. As a result the Jewish christians were considering reverting back to Judaism. Paul's intention was to exhort them, to remind them that the object of their faith, Yeshua, is worthy of their suffering. Hence the first chapter is exclusively about the attributes and position of Yeshua. This is why the chapter builds to a crecendo.
If Paul were to switch focus to the father mid stream that would not only be confusing but would undermine the whole purpose of the letter – to demonstrate the supremacy of the Son, the very object of the faith, the person for which they are being persecuted.
Paul,My thoughts exactly brother! The author does not change his subject from the Son to the Father in mid stream ” as you say. Furthermore, the author said that they were to “leave the elementary teachings of Christ” in reference to certain things inwhich “faith toward God” was included (6:1-3).
They were to abandon “faith toward God” as it had been instituted by Moses and to now move on to faith in Christ.
Jesus Himself hinted at this saying, “Believe in God, believe ALSO in Me.” This call to “believing also in Me” would be idolatrous if Christ were not Himself God.
Boy am I glad you're back. These people here are in darkness and you are refreshing light! Please stay a while.
thinker
TTyou are again lost in your mind of detractor of the word of God,how is your conclution fit in those words of Paul
Heb 5:11 We have a lot to say about that. But it is hard to explain it to you. You learn too slowly.
Heb 5:12 By this time you should be teachers. But in fact, you need someone to teach you all over again. You need even the simple truths of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food.
Heb 5:13 Anyone who lives on milk is still a baby. That person does not want to learn about living a godly life.
Heb 5:14 Solid food is for those who are grown up. They have trained themselves with a lot of practice. They can tell the difference between good and evil.
Heb 6:1 So let us leave the simple teachings about Christ. Let us grow up as believers. Let us not start all over again with the basic teachings. They taught us that we need to turn away from doing things that lead to death. They taught us that we must have faith in God.
Heb 6:2 They taught us about different kinds of baptism. They taught us about placing hands on people. They taught us that people will rise from the dead. They taught us that God will judge everyone. And they taught us that what he decides will last forever.
Heb 6:3 If God permits, we will go beyond those teachings and grow up.
Heb 6:4 What if some people fall away from the faith? It won’t be possible to bring them back. It is true that they have seen the light. They have tasted the heavenly gift. They have shared in the Holy Spirit.you have eyes but do not see ,remove the trinity may be you could see better.???
t,First, what translation is this you used?
Second, what did I say that contradicted the passage? It clearly says to leave the “elementary teaching of Christ” which includes faith in God (in its old covenant content).
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
It CLEARLY says that we are not to lay again that foundation of faith in God but to move on to perfection. The one who moves on to perfection will put His faith in Jesus Christ.
Was Jesus lying when Je said, “Believe in God, believe ALSO in Me.”
Was Paul lying when he said that we are justified “by faith IN Jesus Christ.”
Those who will not move on to perfection by faith in Christ are under the threat of damnation.
thinker
TT
you are dancing around the real truth of Paul words,and you willfully do it you are not that stupid,
the trinity is your interest also your environment and so you will supported fully again all Bible truth.
you have done it ,you do it ,and you will do it again,the scriptures do not mean truth to you but something to slander.Paul argument was that ones you get started in to the knowledge of God ,you can not stop we should all progress to maturity to come to the full knowledge of Christ and God .
this was the curse the trinitarians could not accept and at to be stopped and prevent their worshipers to come to the full knowledge of God ,because this was the knowledge who will destroy the trinity.
Yak yak yak. All yak and no substance. Jesus meant that we should believe in Him as we would believe in God. You don't believe in the drill. You believe in the man who operates the drill.Jesus said, “Let not your hearts be troubled, believe in God, believe ALSO in me.” Oops! That's a new testament idea so we had better dump it. We are not supposed to put our faith in a mere man.
thinker
TTyou ask what translation i use?
TT you do not use any one translation available today,or yesterday,in any language,you have your own translation
what you make up as you go.Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,02:54) Quote (terraricca @ April 09 2010,01:15) Quote (thethinker @ April 08 2010,22:16) Is. 1:18 said to Mikeboll: Quote 1. There are no grammatical cues for a switch in subject from Yeshua to the Father. None. 2. It's not in keeping with the context of the letter. The background to the Hebrews letter was intense persecution being suffered by the first century christian readers. As a result the Jewish christians were considering reverting back to Judaism. Paul's intention was to exhort them, to remind them that the object of their faith, Yeshua, is worthy of their suffering. Hence the first chapter is exclusively about the attributes and position of Yeshua. This is why the chapter builds to a crecendo.
If Paul were to switch focus to the father mid stream that would not only be confusing but would undermine the whole purpose of the letter – to demonstrate the supremacy of the Son, the very object of the faith, the person for which they are being persecuted.
Paul,My thoughts exactly brother! The author does not change his subject from the Son to the Father in mid stream ” as you say. Furthermore, the author said that they were to “leave the elementary teachings of Christ” in reference to certain things inwhich “faith toward God” was included (6:1-3).
They were to abandon “faith toward God” as it had been instituted by Moses and to now move on to faith in Christ.
Jesus Himself hinted at this saying, “Believe in God, believe ALSO in Me.” This call to “believing also in Me” would be idolatrous if Christ were not Himself God.
Boy am I glad you're back. These people here are in darkness and you are refreshing light! Please stay a while.
thinker
TTyou are again lost in your mind of detractor of the word of God,how is your conclution fit in those words of Paul
Heb 5:11 We have a lot to say about that. But it is hard to explain it to you. You learn too slowly.
Heb 5:12 By this time you should be teachers. But in fact, you need someone to teach you all over again. You need even the simple truths of God’s word. You need milk, not solid food.
Heb 5:13 Anyone who lives on milk is still a baby. That person does not want to learn about living a godly life.
Heb 5:14 Solid food is for those who are grown up. They have trained themselves with a lot of practice. They can tell the difference between good and evil.
Heb 6:1 So let us leave the simple teachings about Christ. Let us grow up as believers. Let us not start all over again with the basic teachings. They taught us that we need to turn away from doing things that lead to death. They taught us that we must have faith in God.
Heb 6:2 They taught us about different kinds of baptism. They taught us about placing hands on people. They taught us that people will rise from the dead. They taught us that God will judge everyone. And they taught us that what he decides will last forever.
Heb 6:3 If God permits, we will go beyond those teachings and grow up.
Heb 6:4 What if some people fall away from the faith? It won’t be possible to bring them back. It is true that they have seen the light. They have tasted the heavenly gift. They have shared in the Holy Spirit.you have eyes but do not see ,remove the trinity may be you could see better.???
t,First, what translation is this you used?
Second, what did I say that contradicted the passage? It clearly says to leave the “elementary teaching of Christ” which includes faith in God (in its old covenant content).
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so.
It CLEARLY says that we are not to lay again that foundation of faith in God but to move on to perfection. The one who moves on to perfection will put His faith in Jesus Christ.
Was Jesus lying when Je said, “Believe in God, believe ALSO in Me.”
Was Paul lying when he said that we are justified “by faith IN Jesus Christ.”
Those who will not move on to perfection by faith in Christ are under the threat of damnation.
thinker
Hi TT,
How odd that those who offer strange trinity gods give dire warnings of damnation to those who do not.Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2010,06:23) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,05:38) Quote (JustAskin @ April 09 2010,05:24) How amazing TT. “Believe in God and believe also in Me” – This means Jesus is God….???
“Believe in my father and believe in me also” – This means I am my father!!
“believe that the heavens and the earth will last forever and believe also in me” – I am heaven and earth!!
“Believe that this drill will make a hole in that piece of wood, and believe in me [as a workman]” – I am a drill!!!
Anyone else wanna join in – don't!! – only one man should die for the sins of another!
Uh yeah dude! If Jesus was not God He would be telling His us to commit idolatry.thinker
Hi TT,
Why should believing in the Son of God be idolatry?
You cannot find God's salvation unless you do.Yahweh saves.
hi nickyou know TT does not care about the scriptures he is trinitarian and so they use there own scriptures and books
so they could relate better to there madness.Nick,
It's ok, He always has this knee jerk reaction when I post to him – because he is stung and his natural reaction is to throw dirt back believing in himself that it is somehow rdding him of his inner rage (It's only eating him out – I have warned him many times but he persists – poor guy! I have tried to help him.
He leans on and follows after WJ – Surfaces always after WJ makes a good – in his mind – post as if he wants to be part of something he thinks WJ is going claim as victory over me – deluded or what)
You all notice that TT ignored all the scripturall soundness of my post to be flippant about a drill being less powerful than the one who operates it but doesn't see the analogy that:
“Jesus is the drill and God is the workman”,
so he says :
“Don't believe in the drill, believe in the workman who uses the drill”Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2010,06:23) Quote (thethinker @ April 09 2010,05:38) Quote (JustAskin @ April 09 2010,05:24) How amazing TT. “Believe in God and believe also in Me” – This means Jesus is God….???
“Believe in my father and believe in me also” – This means I am my father!!
“believe that the heavens and the earth will last forever and believe also in me” – I am heaven and earth!!
“Believe that this drill will make a hole in that piece of wood, and believe in me [as a workman]” – I am a drill!!!
Anyone else wanna join in – don't!! – only one man should die for the sins of another!
Uh yeah dude! If Jesus was not God He would be telling His us to commit idolatry.thinker
Hi TT,
Why should believing in the Son of God be idolatry?
You cannot find God's salvation unless you do.Yahweh saves.
Nick,Believing in the Son is not idolatry. But it has to be by anti-trinitarian standards if we are to believe in Jesus as we would believe in God.
“Believe in God, believe ALSO in Me.”
thinker
Nick,
TT is trying call us names but doesn't have the evidence to back it up so he makes it up.
He doesn't ask us what our belief is – he tell us what we believe and then calls us Idolators.
What is an Idolater, anyway?
Quote (JustAskin @ April 09 2010,07:27) Nick, TT is trying call us names but doesn't have the evidence to back it up so he makes it up.
He doesn't ask us what our belief is – he tell us what we believe and then calls us Idolators.
What is an Idolater, anyway?
JA,Why do you misunderstand all the time? I said “by your standards” you would be idolaters for believing in Jesus. You are not idolaters because Jesus is God.
thinker
Hi TT,
Find out WHO God is and come to know HIM.
Then with salve in your eyes you may see where deception lies.trinity theory is not scriptural.
TT,
What is wrong with you.
I do not worship Jesus. How is NOT worship Jesus Idolatrous?Is your 'Your' refering to me.
LU worships Jesus (or says she does but she doesn't know what woeship is!)
TT,
I see you and Mikeboll had a discord over 'Heirs of or with Christ'
Tell me this: what does it matter to you as a trinitarian?
We will be 'heirs of God', 'heirs with God'… and therefore we will BE God Almighty ourselves.
As you and WJ are always pointing out: Jesus IS GOD, God Almighty.
And as you and WJ are also always pointing out: The Son (Prince) is EQUAL to the Father (King).
Hmmm… Certainly sounds like a Tempting theory!
To everyone,
I accidentally clicked the opening rant for this thread page 1.
God said 'who will go and die for mankind, who is worthy' and noone on earth or in heaven was found worthy.
Then Jesus came forward and said 'Here I am, send me'
So there you have it:
Jesus was both Sent and came voluntarily.
Closed Book. Amen on that.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 08 2010,17:07) Mike,
Could you reread my post and think it through thoroughly before you respond. I don't think you've properly understood many of my points.
Hi Paul,Why can't you just answer a person's point? This will be the 4th time I've answered – without any rebuttal from you.
First, although the possibility that Paul could be talking to Jehovah in the verses in question remains, I've have abandoned that argument to focus on the other possibility – that it also could be God talking of Jesus. You are playing thinker's game of, “since I don't have a rebuttal, I'll try misdirection”. While I don't have a brilliant mind, and am a very new student of the Scriptures, I'm not easily mislead. I don't have to read your post again to know that you think Jehovah is referring to Jesus as Jehovah by calling him “Lord”.
So, here I go again…. The word “lord” has NEVER been a substitution for the name of Jehovah. While most modern Bibles render the divine name YHVH as LORD, those who have knowledge of God's name should read it as Jehovah, or Yahweh, or I Shall Prove To Be What I Shall Prove To Be, not lord. At some point in time, the Jews either considered the divine name too Holy to be said, or developed a superstition against saying it. Historians are unclear exactly when or why this happened. I believe there is a hint of how it started in Amos:
Quote Amos 6:10 NIV
And if a relative who is to burn the bodies comes to carry them out of the house and asks anyone still hiding there, “Is anyone with you?” and he says, “No,” then he will say, “Hush! We must not mention the name of the LORD.”This is just my theory – I have no historical or Scriptural evidence to support it. Anyway, as the years went by, using the divine name fell out of fashion, for whatever reason.
So instead of calling Him by His name, they called Him by titles, such as God and Lord. Other beings also were called by these same titles, for example Satan, kings, judges, nobles, and Jesus. Again, the title of lord, NEVER literally means Jehovah. It was sometimes used as a title OF Jehovah, as well as of other beings. So when Jesus was called Lord, it was NEVER the case that he was actually being called Jehovah. And in the 5 instances in the Bible where he is thought to be referred to as a god, again, it was NOT a translation of Jehovah.
Your question is, “In what sense did God refer to Jesus as Lord?” And I've told you, in the sense that Jesus was a Lord. Just as he could have referred to him as “the Lamb”, “King”, “Savior”, etc. You admit that it makes no sense to think God was saying, “My Lord”. Now that you have an answer to your assumption that God was calling him Jehovah (which btw, makes no sense because it's not his name), how do you respond?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,08:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2010,16:56) Hi WJ,
But holders of this intellectual philosophy -trinitarianism-never seem to know WHO God is.
So how can they KNOW GOD?
Does anybody hear that noise?HMMM. Very faint indeed!
WJ
Your god is of human form and is male, that was not enough for you, for another god was stronger, so you being as such, decided to add another god into the mix, creating a more powerful god, then since that was not enough for your appetite you had to add another. This would incur you had the most powerful and mighty god, not only human also divine that walked on earth with his people.Greeks and Romans are noted for this. This is the sound of old.
Quote No one disputes that the Father “sent” Jesus into the world to die for our sins. But she takes away from the fact Jesus also came on His own initiative. — thunker
But did Jesus come of his own initiative?
JOHN 7:28,29
“Also, I have not come of my own initiative, but he that sent me is real, and YOU do not know him. I know him, because I am a representative from him, and that One sent me forth.”JOHN 8:28
“Therefore Jesus said: “When once YOU have lifted up the Son of man, then YOU will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things.”JOHN 8:42
“Neither have I come of my own initiative at all, but that One sent me forth.”JOHN 5:30
“I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative; just as I hear, I judge; and the judgment that I render is righteous, because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him that sent me.”Quote Yet Jodi Lee thinks that His being “sent” means that He did not come on His own. Of course Jesus was not forced to come. But it was not his idea. That's the point. It was the Father's will. I think when Jesus continually says he did NOT come of his own initiative, he means that it was his Father's will that he come, and not his. (I'm not implying that he didn't wholeheartedly agree with this, for he did.)
Quote Jesus said that the Father loves Him because He lays down His life of Himself (John 10:17).
Jesus had free will. He wasn't a robot. He had a choice. But again, the point is that he was choosing to do what his Father wanted him to do, what his Father sent him to earth to do, what his Father initiated.Quote By Jodi Lee's logic the missionary should not receive any credit because she was “sent” by the missions organization.
Of course, none of this means Jesus is not worthy of credit, and much more than “credit.”Quote It is obvious that Jodi Lee sees only that side of Jesus she wants to see which is the Jesus who was “under God's thumb.” This is because she thinks one dimensionally.
Jesus of course is not any more under God's thumb (I think you mean being forced to do something) than you or I are under his thumb. He asks. We do.David,
Well concurred.As I put it a bit more concisely:
God said 'Who will go for me?' and Jesus said 'Here, I am, Send Me!'David,
I don't know what jodilee said to rile TT, unusual for him!!!, but Jesus was certainly not under Gods thumb.
The Scriptures absolutely shows him as God's RightHand(figuratively) Man (literally).Quote (princess of the king @ April 08 2010,22:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,08:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2010,16:56) Hi WJ,
But holders of this intellectual philosophy -trinitarianism-never seem to know WHO God is.
So how can they KNOW GOD?
Does anybody hear that noise?HMMM. Very faint indeed!
WJ
Your god is of human form and is male, that was not enough for you, for another god was stronger, so you being as such, decided to add another god into the mix, creating a more powerful god, then since that was not enough for your appetite you had to add another. This would incur you had the most powerful and mighty god, not only human also divine that walked on earth with his people.Greeks and Romans are noted for this. This is the sound of old.
Definitly not a Trinitarians belief! Go and learn what a Trinitarian believes!Trinitarians believe in One God not many gods. God is a plural unity.
Just like everything else in the universe which reveals his Glory.
Here is a question for you. Can you name one thing in the created Universe that is not plural in nature?
Good luck!
You guys limit God and his ablity to be what ever he wants!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 10 2010,05:34) Quote (princess of the king @ April 08 2010,22:45) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 07 2010,08:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 06 2010,16:56) Hi WJ,
But holders of this intellectual philosophy -trinitarianism-never seem to know WHO God is.
So how can they KNOW GOD?
Does anybody hear that noise?HMMM. Very faint indeed!
WJ
Your god is of human form and is male, that was not enough for you, for another god was stronger, so you being as such, decided to add another god into the mix, creating a more powerful god, then since that was not enough for your appetite you had to add another. This would incur you had the most powerful and mighty god, not only human also divine that walked on earth with his people.Greeks and Romans are noted for this. This is the sound of old.
Definitly not a Trinitarians belief! Go and learn what a Trinitarian believes!Trinitarians believe in One God not many gods. God is a plural unity.
Just like everything else in the universe which reveals his Glory.
Here is a question for you. Can you name one thing in the created Universe that is not plural in nature?
Good luck!
You guys limit God and his ablity to be what ever he wants!
WJ
WJcould you show and explain me how according to Jesus words and teachings you as a trinitarian can be saved ,
and obtain redemption of you lies and pagan teachings,
and make us all here see how you can establish connection with the spirit of Christ and your doctrine.??
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