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Hi WJ,
I finally found some time to answer to another of your points.
You said:
Quote For a Hebrew to give the same kind of honor and devotion to a mere man like Jesus required men to give to him would be idolatry. Jesus required men that would follow him to be able to die for his sake. Paul said he was a bond slave and prisoner of Jesus. So therefore it is a valid point that when Jesus says you cannot serve two masters yet the scriptures tell us that Jesus is our “Only Lord and Master”. What you imply is that Jehovah faded out of the picture when Jesus arrived on earth. That Jesus has ALL the power in the universe and that Jehovah has none. That Jesus is now our only master, so we don't have to obey our creator. But that is not what the Scriptures teach. Neither does it serve you to make conflicting statements like:
1. Jesus was 100% God on earth.
2. People recognized that he was God when they “worshipped” him on earth.
3. That by his statement, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father” he showed that he was God.
4. That by saying he was God's Son, he was making himself equal to God. ( Hey, that's a good one for my debate with Jack!)But then you turn around and insist that when he said, “the Father is greater than me”, or prayed to his God, it was because he was in a lowered position at the time.
You quoted:
Quote For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our “ONLY Sovereign and Lord”. Jude 1:4 Take the 5th grader test: Did Jude believe Jesus to be God? He starts his book with:
Quote 1Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James,
To those who have been called, who are loved by God the Father and kept by Jesus Christ:There is a definite distinction between two persons. And only one of them is God.
And he ends it with:
Quote 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. Again he makes the same distinction. And is Jude saying that only God has glory, majesty, power and authority, period? It sure sounds like it. But we know from the rest of the Scriptures that this is not true. Jesus and Solomon have/had glory. And Jesus also has been given power and authority.
But this is how the trinitarians try to twist things. They take one sentence of one book in the Bible and search and search for a possible translation or variant definition of a word that will make it fit into their doctrine, all the while ignoring the fact that it doesn't at all fit in with the rest of the Scriptures. And they have done this over and over until they have built up a nice little nest-egg of lies.
The KJV translates Jude 1:4 as:
Quote 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares , who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, AND our Lord Jesus Christ. But you choose to use a translation to fit your puposes. Fair enough, but does your translation fit in with the first and last verses of Jude, let alone the rest of the Bible? NO.
I would like to see someone try to prove the trinity using ONLY Jesus' directly quoted words. Not the writers' narration, nor the epistles, but only direct quotes from Jesus. Could you do that, WJ?
peace and love,
mikeHi Mike,
Sorry to butt in, but… Have you seen the recent posts where WJ says that Jesus was both man and God.I think he is stumped by his own doctrine and wants to bat for both sides depending on which side is winning.
He has realised his error but his pride and the hooks he has created himself in his demonic creed are holding him fast.
Hi WJ,
You said:
Quote First of all Trinitarians do not have other gods, but it is you that believes in other gods and that Jesus is “a god”. Secondly, the Holy Spirits ministry is to glorify the Father and the Son and not to speak of himself, though that does not reduce his nature as God , one with the Father and Jesus with one name. Matt 28:19 If the Holy Spirit tells you to do something without question would you do it?
This is the real reason you trinitarian despise and fear the JW's so much. They had the audacity to translate John 1:1 as, “and the Word was a god.” And in order to keep this kind of translation from taking hold, you must immediately cry out, “Blasphemer! There is only ONE God!” But EVEN AS (there's that word phrase you love) you are crying out, you know full well that Paul called Satan “the god of this world”. So does the Bible really teach that there is only one God? Or does it teach that there is only one God whom we should worship and serve?
Let's do the 5th grader test again. Did John think that Jesus was God Almighty? He witnessed him praying to his God on earth. He recorded him as saying the Father is greater. He sums up his book by saying these things I wrote so you will believe that Jesus is the SON OF GOD, not God Almighty. He received a revelation in which he recorded Jesus (after he was raised) calling Jehovah, “my God”.
So adding this information to the fact that the word “god” in John's day meant the same thing as it does today – a supernatural being – there is a lot of reasons that it should be translated as the NWT translates it.
The Holy Spirit doesn't have a “ministry”. It is a part of the Father which He uses as a mediator, not a separate entity.
And to answer your question, yes. If I was sure that the fruits of what the spirit was saying to me were righteous, then I would conclude that the spirit was in fact sent by God, (not IS God) and I would do as told.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2010,03:46) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 04 2010,19:38) He is LORD
Hi Paul,LORD is how most translations render the divine name JHVH or Jehovah. The trinitarians think that the godhead consists of three separate yet equal persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Claiming that Jesus is JHVH doesn't even fit into your flawed view of God, since they are SEPARATE individuals.
I find it amusing when the trinitarians use LORD or “ego eimi” like in your signature to claim that Jesus is God, because what you are saying is that the Son is actually the Father. Does that really fit into you godhead view?
And Brother Ed J will be happy to explain to you that “I am that I am” can not be the literal translation of JHVH.
And I left out the most important person in my last post to you. I should have said, “My faith is solidly rested in the Jesus the Bible teaches and in his God, Jehovah.”
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mikeboll,Thank you for checking me out.
1Thess.5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is “Good”(of JEHOVAH).God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,06:36) Hi Mike,
Sorry to butt in, but… Have you seen the recent posts where WJ says that Jesus was both man and God.I think he is stumped by his own doctrine and wants to bat for both sides depending on which side is winning.
He has realised his error but his pride and the hooks he has created himself in his demonic creed are holding him fast.
Hi JA,I have often heard that Jesus was 100% God and 100% man from trinitarians. They don't realize I guess that 200% is not a real per cent, since it means “out of 100”. I agree that the trinitarians that visit this site do realize their view of a godhead is in error, but it's too late to turn back now. It would mean changing long taught beliefs and alienating themselves from their friends and peers, and they prefer “praise from men over the praise from God”. IMO
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Ed J @ April 05 2010,08:07) Hi Mikeboll, Thank you for checking me out.
1Thess.5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is “Good”(of JEHOVAH).
Hi Ed,Hope things are good with you.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,03:47) Is1, Not sure if you can't answer or just not around but let me suggest some response to your statements:
Jesus is 'Lord of the Sabbath'
Did Jesus say that or did He say 'The Son of Man is ALSO Lord of the Sabbath'
The purpose was to dhow the Jews that it was not wrong to do good on the Sabbath, that 'man is Lord', man controls his actions on the day, not the day, even the Sabbath, controls his actions. The previous verses in Mark 2:27, state this very clearly.'He is LORD'. Where did you read this?
LORD (ALL Caps) is a substitute word used by the bible translators in place of God's name 'YHVH' and should not be confused with 'Lord' or 'lord'.
Satan knew very well what he was doing when he pursuaded the Jews to stop pronouncing Godls name for fear of blaspheming, and also the Bible translators from writing His name in a 'modern form' (Yehovah, Yahveh, or similar) but use an ambiguous title (LORD) that could easily be miswritten as 'Lord' or 'lord' and completely change its meaning, evdn taking away its majesty (Robbing God of His glorious everlasting sacred name)Your other two statements, show me where you quote them from, please.
HI Justaskin,Isn't it GREAT how “Our YHVH”=117 works!
Isaiah 44:26 That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem,
Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:“YHVH is GOD”=117
PSALM 117 is [The Bible's Center Chapter], the [smallest chapter] of the [LARGEST BOOK]!Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEDJ,
I will not converse with you after this until and unless you stop your 'x=n' thing.It is getting tedious, adds nothung to any discussion, is overused and meaningless to me. Interesting for a day but not weeks, minths and years unless you develop it into a meaningful …whatever…
Sorry bro', I thought you'd stopped.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 04 2010,21:55) Is1,
And what of the other statements.The idea that they are clear to you should not absolve you of making it clear to others. In fact, it should then be your duty, don't you believe?
I am just asking!
Lord of Glory
“the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory” (1 Cor 2:8, NASB)Lord of All
“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all) (Acts 10:36, NASB)LORD
“Behold, a day is coming for the LORD when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. Then the LORD will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. In that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.” (Zech 14:1-4, NASB)More detail for the last verse here: https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….60;st=0
Quote (JustAskin @ April 04 2010,22:22) Is1,
Matthew 8:20: 'And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.'Matthew 12:32: 'Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him…' (also showing that Jesus is not God nor equal to the Holy Spirit nor God)
Matthew 12:40: 'For as Jonah was three days and nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and nights in the heart of the earth' (Also showing that TT and WJ claim that Jonah crying out is not part of Jesus' analogy)
Is1, I don't see where the verses you quote have [anything] to do with your statements.
Please show me how they are connected.
The other verses were some cross references in Matthew where Yeshua applied the title “Son of Man” to Himself.Isa 1:18………..Your getting the Lord Jesus Christ mixed up with The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Remember where David said The LORD said unto my Lord sit on my right hand until (I) (LORD GOD) make YOUR (the Lord Jesus Christ) enemies your foot stool. Two Lords on The LORD GOD ALMIGHTY and the other the Lord Jesus Christ. There are many Lords and gods but for Us there is ONLY ONE TRUE GOD. That same GOD that Jesus said HE HAD also. IMO
peace and love to you and yours brother……………………..gene
Quote (terraricca @ April 05 2010,01:54) Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 04 2010,19:38) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 04 2010,12:14) My faith is solidly rested in the Christ the Bible teaches.
Some of it….He is Lord of the Sabbath
He is the Lord of Glory
He is Lord of all
He is LORD
Is1with personal comment like you do no wander there are IMO
since you looking for truth why you don't use the truth in scriptures ,and layout you understanding clearly like someone who has inside view,not a mare knowledge of scriptures,
ex;if i am a project manager,and i am the best there is ,and have done fantastic works and project ,it will never make me the owner of the company.
even believing that is stupid and is dreaming.
Christ is the son of God not God, someone IMO is not required for a explanation on that,if your knowledge of scriptures is only covering this type of understanding ,it would be better to keep silence.
What? I can't make sense of this….Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 05 2010,03:46) LORD is how most translations render the divine name JHVH or Jehovah. The trinitarians think that the godhead consists of three separate yet equal persons – Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Claiming that Jesus is JHVH doesn't even fit into your flawed view of God, since they are SEPARATE individuals. peace and love,
mike
This statement shows how little you understand a doctrine you're so disparaging of.There is one God (YHWH)
Quote I find it amusing when the trinitarians use LORD or “ego eimi” like in your signature to claim that Jesus is God, because what you are saying is that the Son is actually the Father. Does that really fit into you godhead view?
Your presuppostion is that only the Father bears the name YHWH in my “godhead view” (what ever that means) and it's obvious to me now that you don't have even a basic understanding of the trinity doctrine.You need to learn some fundamentals…..
Quote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,03:47) Is1, Not sure if you can't answer or just not around but let me suggest some response to your statements:
Not around.Quote Jesus is 'Lord of the Sabbath'
Did Jesus say that or did He say 'The Son of Man is ALSO Lord of the Sabbath'
The purpose was to dhow the Jews that it was not wrong to do good on the Sabbath, that 'man is Lord', man controls his actions on the day, not the day, even the Sabbath, controls his actions. The previous verses in Mark 2:27, state this very clearly.
No His purpose was to explain to the Jews that as He was “Lord of the Sabbath” he was entitled to direct the manner of its observance (to quote Barnes). It's a not-so-tacit claim to deity.Quote 'He is LORD'. Where did you read this?
Zechariah 14 and other places….Quote LORD (ALL Caps) is a substitute word used by the bible translators in place of God's name 'YHVH' and should not be confused with 'Lord' or 'lord'.
Thanks for pointing that out but yes – I was aware of that…Quote (JustAskin @ April 05 2010,04:37) Is1, I see nothing wrong with your other two statements and support them.
Only one thing more.
What is the context under which you quote them, as I can't see, even now, what they are connected to.
It was my response to MikeBoll64's statement on pg 29 of this thread:“My faith is solidly rested in the Christ the Bible teaches. The one sent from God, not the one the trinitarians invented that is God. The one who says his Father is greater than him. The one who prayed to his God many times. The one who now sits at the right hand of his God, waiting for his God to put all his enemies under him. The one who will be the King of kings under his God.”
The point I was trying to make was it's not always what the Watchtower affirm that's eroneous (quite often it is though) but rather what they omit. And the post above is a classic example of this. Some of what Mike wrote was correct in and of itself, but it's only part of the picture. And because Mike only accepts part of the what the Bible ascibes to Yeshua he has a false Messiah.
Right now that i've answered the questions asked of me in this thread it's time for me to ask one of my own….
In Hebrews 1:10 the Father addresses the Son as “Lord”. In what sense is the Son “Lord” to the Father?
Any takers?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,14:11) Right now that i've answered the questions asked of me in this thread it's time for me to ask one of my own…. In Hebrews 1:10 the Father addresses the Son as “Lord”. In what sense is the Son “Lord” to the Father?
Any takers?
Hi Paul,Lord in Hebrews 1:10 should have been LORD, because it is referring to [יהוה] YÄ-hä-vā NOT [יהשוע] YÄ-shü-ă.
Hebrews 1:10-11 And, Thou, LORD(יהוה), in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth;
and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish;
but thou remainest;and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;Hebrews 1:10-11 should be compared to Jeremiah 10:11-12
Jer.10:11-12 Thus shall ye(יהוה) say unto them, The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth,
even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens. He hath made the earth by his
power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.Witnessing to the world in behalf of… (Psalm 45:17)
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd, so you affirm that the Father is calling the Son “LORD” (or what's generally accepted to mean YHWH) in Hebrews 1:10? That's how I read it. Is this correct?
The writer quoted Ps 102:25-27 so shouldn't we be looking there, instead of Jer 1:11-12?
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,14:53) Ed, so you affirm that the Father is calling the Son “LORD” (or what's generally accepted to mean YHWH) in Hebrews 1:10? That's how I read it. Is this correct? The writer quoted Ps 102:25-27 so shouldn't we be looking there, instead of Jer 1:11-12?
Hi Paul,No; Heb1:10 should have been put as LORD because it's referring to “JEHOVAH” rather than “Lord”(Jesus).
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Is 1:18 @ April 05 2010,14:53) Ed, so you affirm that the Father is calling the Son “LORD” (or what's generally accepted to mean YHWH) in Hebrews 1:10? That's how I read it. Is this correct? The writer quoted Ps 102:25-27 so shouldn't we be looking there, instead of Jer 1:11-12?
Hi Paul,Psalm 102:24-28 I said, O my God(JEHOVAH), take me not away in the midst of my days: thy(YHVH) years are throughout all generations.
Of old hast thou(YHVH) laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure:
yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same,
and thy years shall have no end. The children of thy servants shall continue, and their seed shall be established before thee.God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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