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Mike,
Your illustration concerning God and Jesus equating to Pharoah and Joseph is spot on.
This illustration is repeated in the Book of Esther, with King Ahesuerus and Haman and again, the king and Mordecai.WJ quotes that God has put all things under Christ, excepting God, Himself, and the completely ignores the implication of the equality of the reference to those two previously mentioned scriptural events, namely, God is still above him whom He put all things under.
Even more, that Christ hands back 'all things' back to God.Even 'if', Christ having all power and authority over everything, except the one who gave him all power and authority, somehow means that Christ is equal to God because he exercises all the authority and power of God, this still does not make him God, for [God] said 'I am [God]' Also, 'And there is noone like me' and again: 'To whom am I to be compared, I know not one'.
And then Christ, having become 'God' (and a [True] God cannot become, cannot be made, created, cannot Die, cannot cease to be a [True] God) hands back all power and authority in a reconciled kingdom to his God and thereby becomes 'not' God.
No, the scriptures says Christ 'Reigns' until all things all things are put under his feet. If Christ is already God, as Trinitarians say, how then does he need to receive, and then, give back, power and authority – 'From God' … And only Reign until a time? And yet is Equal to God at all times?
2Corinthians 5:18 says:'Now all things are of God who has recocilled us to Himself through Christ…'
And 1 Corinthians 15:21 says:'For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead'. Now, we know the 'Man' through whom the resurrection is coming, Jesus Christ but the scriptures do not call him 'God', but 'Man', even meaning 'a Spiritual, heavenly Man.Those that die, literally, or figuratively, for the sake of Christ, for the belief in the Word that he brought concerning his father, The one True God, for the manner of his suffering and his own death (for sinless man that abides by the spirit of God cannot die but God removed His Spirit so Christ could die for all Mankind) will become like Christ in his own image and take their place with him is his own kingdom under God Almighty Himself.
It appears that Trinitarians cannot help quoting Scriptures and see that their doctrine is false, so they simply ignore what is an uncomfortable truth and string the resulting scriptures intheir own image.
Also, when, in this forum, has a Trinitarian acknowledged a truthful saying by a non-trini? No, they simply ignore it, find fault, even where there is noe just for the sake of giving a response.
This shows that their natures is not one of seeking scriptural truth but simply defending trinitarian doctrine.
That is slso why, after YEARS on this topic their posts are as naive as the first day they were indoctrinated. Basically, there is no moving forward in scriptural knowledge for trinis and, indeed, there cannot be as to do so would be to believe that their doctrine is flawed by a Mighty God, even that one, Satan himself, and maintained by the 'abomination' which is the Roman Catholic Church.
Is1:18……………Good to hear from you where have you been hiding brother, are you still a TRINITARIAN ?
Peace and love to you and yours…………………gene
Quote (princess of the king @ April 01 2010,20:54) Quote Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, “but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God”. John 5:18 WJ,
You do not have to prove you believe in a triad god, it is well established, to use such a passage for proof is somewhat illogical for the Jews were in error that Christ broke the Sabbath, as you are in error for using the passage to prove Christ is a god.
You do not think yourself a Pharisee WJ.
POKChrist own words in the verse before Johns own words said say he broke the sabbath…
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, “and I work. John 5:22
The word work is… “ergazomai” and it means…
1) to work, labour, do work
2) to trade, to make gains by trading, “do business”
3) to do, work out
“My Father is working until now, and I too am working.” What is the significance of Jesus’ claim? A preliminary understanding can be obtained from John 5:18, noting the Jewish authorities’ response and the author’s comment. They sought to kill Jesus, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was also calling God his own Father, thus making himself equal with God. This must be seen in the context of the relation of God to the Sabbath rest. In the commandment (Exod 20:11) it is explained that “In six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth…and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.” Philo, based on the LXX translation of Exod 20:11, denied outright that God had ever ceased his creative activity. And when Rabban Gamaliel II, R. Joshua, R. Eleazar ben Azariah, and R. Akiba were in Rome, ca. a.d. 95, they gave as a rebuttal to sectarian arguments evidence that God might do as he willed in the world without breaking the Sabbath because the entire world was his private residence. So even the rabbis realized that God did not really cease to work on the Sabbath: Divine providence remained active on the Sabbath, otherwise, all nature and life would cease to exist. As regards men, divine activity was visible in two ways: Men were born and men died on the Sabbath. Since only God could give life and only God could deal with the fate of the dead in judgment, this meant God was active on the Sabbath. This seems to be the background for Jesus’ words in 5:17. He justified his work of healing on the Sabbath by reminding the Jewish authorities that they admitted God worked on the Sabbath. This explains the violence of the reaction. The Sabbath privilege was peculiar to God, and no one was equal to God. In claiming the right to work even as his Father worked, Jesus was claiming a divine prerogative. He was literally making himself equal to God, as 5:18 goes on to state explicitly for the benefit of the reader who might not have made the connection. NET
Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. Johns words were a reflection of what he understood Jesus to mean and under inspiration of the Holy Spirit he writes John 1:1, 18 – John 20:28 without any correction to the Jews or to Thomas confession!
So you can continue to try and find fault in the scriptures if you like.
But the scriptures are true!
WJ
Quote (Jodi Lee @ April 02 2010,01:01) Hey! It seems you guys have gotten off topic, I thought this thread was suppose to be about my nonsense? 
JodiTo you it probably is nonsense!
WJ
Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 02 2010,03:57) Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,16:21) Quote (thethinker @ April 01 2010,07:19) I noticed that you did not answer the rest of my post about Jesus rewarding those who do good with the resurrection of life and those who do evil with the resurrection of damnation.
Hi Thinker,Quote Isaiah 49:4 NIV
But I said, “I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand, and my reward is with my God.”Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Quote Isaiah 40:10 NIV
See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.Who is coming? The Sovereign Jehovah. And his reward is with him.
Quote Isaiah 62:11 NIV
The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: “Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.' “Who is coming? Our savior Jehovah. Whose reward is with him? Jehovah's
Quote Revelation 22:12 NIV
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Who is coming? Jehovah. Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Do you see the exact wording? None of the Scriptures you quoted have Jesus saying, “My reward is with me”. Can not Jehovah and Jesus both say “I am coming soon”? They will presumably arrive in New Jerusalem at the same time.
peace and love,
mike
Typical Watchtower response, they just stick their fingers in their ears and refuse to acknowledge the plain, commonsense interpretation of the scriptures.
Amen Brother PaulGood to see you!
Keith
WJ,
You are so wrong it is surprising you don't have your own Wako!The Jews were strangling themselves by overstrict observence of the Mosaic laws.
Jesus pointed this out telling them that his Father was still working even in the Sabbath, God doesn't stop His Truth from working because it is the Sabbath…and neither does the one who is the perfect Servant of God.
In fact, they themselves flout the law if it benefits them: Which one of you, if your donkey falls down a well, would not oull it out (which involves working). In fact, there would be many other examples where there would be a need to work on the Sabbath, e.g. What if there was a fire, a medical emergency, a visit of a dignatory. Would they not work to satisfy those needs. In further fact, the Sabbath is a personal day to each individual, even if the majority will make it one dedicated day(Sunday).
The point of the Sabbath was to allow them to rest and worship God in single personal or corporate worship of their One God. Also, during their enslavement, they were not allowed to rest a day but by claiming their right to worship they were granted that rest day by their masters.
Jesus' claim that the Son of Man is Lord of The Sabbath: Why strain at a Gnat, WJ?
It means that Man is ruler over the day, not the day rules man… The Sabbath day is for the Benefit of Man, not the other way round.I see from yours or TT's previous post on this matter that 'Son of Man' is misused as an excuse to say Jesus was claiming He was Lord of the Sabbath.
This is falsity, tut tut, to you, or TT.
Son of Man is not Jesus saying He is God, He mean all of mankind.The Jews were in error concerning what Jesus was claiming and Jesus told them so… But you try to mauntain the Jewish fallasy for your own benefit.
In any case, all you do is show me that the Trinity is false by your deliberate misinterpretation of scripture to try and forcefit your false belief.
Quote (JustAskin @ April 03 2010,01:06) Mike, Your illustration concerning God and Jesus equating to Pharoah and Joseph is spot on.
This illustration is repeated in the Book of Esther, with King Ahesuerus and Haman and again, the king and Mordecai.WJ quotes that God has put all things under Christ, excepting God, Himself, and the completely ignores the implication of the equality of the reference to those two previously mentioned scriptural events, namely, God is still above him whom He put all things under.
Even more, that Christ hands back 'all things' back to God.Even 'if', Christ having all power and authority over everything, except the one who gave him all power and authority, somehow means that Christ is equal to God because he exercises all the authority and power of God, this still does not make him God, for [God] said 'I am [God]' Also, 'And there is noone like me' and again: 'To whom am I to be compared, I know not one'.
And then Christ, having become 'God' (and a [True] God cannot become, cannot be made, created, cannot Die, cannot cease to be a [True] God) hands back all power and authority in a reconciled kingdom to his God and thereby becomes 'not' God.
No, the scriptures says Christ 'Reigns' until all things all things are put under his feet. If Christ is already God, as Trinitarians say, how then does he need to receive, and then, give back, power and authority – 'From God' … And only Reign until a time? And yet is Equal to God at all times?
2Corinthians 5:18 says:'Now all things are of God who has recocilled us to Himself through Christ…'
And 1 Corinthians 15:21 says:'For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead'. Now, we know the 'Man' through whom the resurrection is coming, Jesus Christ but the scriptures do not call him 'God', but 'Man', even meaning 'a Spiritual, heavenly Man.Those that die, literally, or figuratively, for the sake of Christ, for the belief in the Word that he brought concerning his father, The one True God, for the manner of his suffering and his own death (for sinless man that abides by the spirit of God cannot die but God removed His Spirit so Christ could die for all Mankind) will become like Christ in his own image and take their place with him is his own kingdom under God Almighty Himself.
It appears that Trinitarians cannot help quoting Scriptures and see that their doctrine is false, so they simply ignore what is an uncomfortable truth and string the resulting scriptures intheir own image.
Also, when, in this forum, has a Trinitarian acknowledged a truthful saying by a non-trini? No, they simply ignore it, find fault, even where there is noe just for the sake of giving a response.
This shows that their natures is not one of seeking scriptural truth but simply defending trinitarian doctrine.
That is slso why, after YEARS on this topic their posts are as naive as the first day they were indoctrinated. Basically, there is no moving forward in scriptural knowledge for trinis and, indeed, there cannot be as to do so would be to believe that their doctrine is flawed by a Mighty God, even that one, Satan himself, and maintained by the 'abomination' which is the Roman Catholic Church.
Hi JA,Great stuff, brother. Paul explains what should be evident only one time when he says, “when it says 'everything', it is CLEAR that this does not include God”.
I wish he would have put that disclaimer on all the Scriptures that talk about Jesus having power and authority for the Trinitarians. How can something so simple be so hard for them?
peace and love,
mikeHello Paul,
You must be real smart to come up with that beautiful response all by yourself. Answer with Scriptures or logic based on them please, not flippant remarks and insults. That shows hostility and ignorance, not intelligence. BTW, I'm not a JW.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2010,01:09) Hello Paul, You must be real smart to come up with that beautiful response all by yourself. Answer with Scriptures or logic based on them please, not flippant remarks and insults. That shows hostility and ignorance, not intelligence. BTW, I'm not a JW.
peace and love,
mike
MikeI have a response to your post. I Haven't forgotten.
But Isa 1:18 (Paul) can spot JW jargon from a mile away.
You do not realize how much influence they have had on you.
You have been obviously indoctrinated by them!
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2010,01:02) Great stuff, brother. Paul explains what should be evident only one time when he says, “when it says 'everything', it is CLEAR that this does not include God”.
MikeJust as a quick note, how does Paul saying that the Father is excluded from being under Jesus mean that Jesus is not equal to the Father, since he possesses all things including ALL authority and power and that he upholds all things by the word of his power and by him all things consist.
You still have not explained or addressed these points.
Your analogy of Joseph and the Pharoah lacks because Jesus not only sits next to the Father but stands in his throne!
Joseph was equally Pharoah to the people and he had all authority and power over egypt but Joseph did not sit in the throne.
Jesus shares the Glory and the throne with the Father!
How is that not equal if he has it all?
WJ
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 03 2010,17:09) Hello Paul, You must be real smart to come up with that beautiful response all by yourself. Answer with Scriptures or logic based on them please, not flippant remarks and insults. That shows hostility and ignorance, not intelligence. BTW, I'm not a JW.
peace and love,
mike
I've read a lot of the debate you have going with The Thinker and have concluded that you don't deserve it. You simply refuse to concede a point, even when an avalanche of evidence washes over you.Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 03 2010,18:16) I've read a lot of the debate you have going with The Thinker and have concluded that you don't deserve it. You simply refuse to concede a point, even when an avalanche of evidence washes over you.
Hi Paul,Sorry, I thought we were all brothers in Christ seeking truth. The avalance of scholarly information in the debate with Jack is so far on my side, not his. Would you have me be “bullied” into submission by insults and ridicules without Scriptural backing? This isn't grade school.
BTW, not one of you cared enough to actually answer to the fact that the wording of “He is coming and His reward is with Him” matches “I am coming and my reward is with me” perfectly.
peace and love,
mikeQuote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,17:20) But Isa 1:18 (Paul) can spot JW jargon from a mile away.
Hi WJ,Did I not say that while looking at Isaiah 40 because of a post from Lightenup, I stumbled across the “he is coming soon with his reward”? No Watchtower was involved. But instead of answering to Scriptures, it's a fail-safe for some Trinitarians to grab out of nowhere and slam the Witnesses for no reason. It's the same mentality some people have when debating with someone racially different from them. When they can't intelligibly defend their own point, they slam the other with some racial slur – like that somehow diminishes the argument the other was making. It's childish and counter-productive.
peace and love,
mikeMike……..I have noticed people do that to, it is just a way of changing the subject, because they are back in a corner and can't find any sound ground for there dogmas. I like Is 1:18 a lot he is a straight shooter, But i do disagree with His (TRINITARIANS) views , he tends to agree with WJ and Thinker most of the time. Mike most of what you are saying is right on when it comes to their TRINITARIAN views. IMO
peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ April 03 2010,17:28) Mike Just as a quick note, how does Paul saying that the Father is excluded from being under Jesus mean that Jesus is not equal to the Father, since he possesses all things including ALL authority and power and that he upholds all things by the word of his power and by him all things consist.
You still have not explained or addressed these points.
Your analogy of Joseph and the Pharoah lacks because Jesus not only sits next to the Father but stands in his throne!
Joseph was equally Pharoah to the people and he had all authority and power over egypt but Joseph did not sit in the throne.
Jesus shares the Glory and the throne with the Father!
How is that not equal if he has it all?
WJ
Hi WJ,
It's not necessarily the part about the Father not being under Jesus, although non-equality is implied. Just like when Jesus says that no servant is a great as his master, the implication is NOT that the servant however can be AS GREAT or EQUAL TO his master. But if you can't see the implication, then focus on the latter part of the verse, “does not include God himself,” WHO IS THE ONE WHO WHO HAS THE POWER TO PUT EVERYTHING UNDER JESUS IN THE FIRST PLACE. THE ONE WHO HAS THE POWER TO SET JESUS UP HIGH, OR SET HIM DOWN LOW IF HE CHOOSES.
As far as Joseph sharing Pharaoh's throne, while it doesn't specifically say he couldn't or didn't, it's a non-point, because some of us will share Jesus' throne with him. Will they then be 100% equal with the King of kings and Lord of lords in every way?
peace and love,
mikeQuote (Gene Balthrop @ April 04 2010,04:02) Mike……..I have noticed people do that to, it is just a way of changing the subject, because they are back in a corner and can't find any sound ground for there dogmas. I like Is 1:18 a lot he is a straight shooter, But i do disagree with His (TRINITARIANS) views , he tends to agree with WJ and Thinker most of the time. Mike most of what you are saying is right on when it comes to their TRINITARIAN views. IMO peace and love to you and yours…………….gene
Hi Gene,I hope you and yours are well in Christ. You hit it on the nail. When some people don't have the answers, they use the diversion tactic of unfounded insults just to have a way to cover their back as they run away. This is one of the two reasons that challenged the thinker to a debate. No place to run. And that works both ways – I also have no place to run. The other reason is for my own learning. You gotta admit, the Trinitarians will keep you honest.
peace and love,
mikeMike…….What i find most interesting is How they Just do not get it, it like there is a shield deflecting the truth from going into their minds, it is Kinda humorous at times. When such absolutely clear scripture are just ignored by them and they just passover them like they were not even there. It has to be that GOD has sent to them a deluding Spirit in order for them to Believe the LIE of the TRINITY. 2 Ths 2. IMO
peace and love to you and yours……………….gene
Hi Mike,
They well know what they are saying. They would love to use the examples given in the Scriptures but cannot because it voids the trinity creed. Therefore they simply ignore what is obvious and clear.
All Scripture is given for our benefit and knowledge. It is not there by accident.
You use Joseph and Pharoah, I like Haman/Mordecai and Ahesurus but they both speak the same, namely, the one giving authority is still abive he whim he gives that authority.
This is brought out in Book of Esther where Haman, though holding the signet ring if the King, sins against the King.
The King takes away his authority, his signet ring, and establishes another in haman's place.This answers a question that has been asked by one who I forget, whi claimed that the giver cannot take back what he has given, that, in effect, God could not take back the power and authority that He gave to Jesus (But why would He if the one whom He gave the p&a to does good?)
I see WJ was not satisfied with your example and threw in:'but Joseph dudn't SIT on Pharoahs throne but Jesus STOOD in the throne of God'.
Beg pardon if I am wrong but does Jesus SIT on the throne of God, or just At His Righthand side.
Does the Scriptures say that Jesus sits ON the throne of God? (Rev 4:2) Please draw a picture of that described in thoses verses.
Trinis try to say that Jesus us 'in the Midst of the throne, this makes him God', but what if all the others who are also 'in the Midst' of the throne?(Rev 4:6, 5:6)Also, is there not a clear distintion between God and Jesus (the Lamb)?
Quote (mikeboll64 @ April 01 2010,16:21) Quote (thethinker @ April 01 2010,07:19) I noticed that you did not answer the rest of my post about Jesus rewarding those who do good with the resurrection of life and those who do evil with the resurrection of damnation.
Hi Thinker,Quote Isaiah 49:4 NIV
But I said, “I have labored to no purpose; I have spent my strength in vain and for nothing. Yet what is due me is in the LORD's hand, and my reward is with my God.”Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Quote Isaiah 40:10 NIV
See, the Sovereign LORD comes with power, and his arm rules for him. See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.Who is coming? The Sovereign Jehovah. And his reward is with him.
Quote Isaiah 62:11 NIV
The LORD has made proclamation to the ends of the earth: “Say to the Daughter of Zion, 'See, your Savior comes! See, his reward is with him, and his recompense accompanies him.' “Who is coming? Our savior Jehovah. Whose reward is with him? Jehovah's
Quote Revelation 22:12 NIV
“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done.Who is coming? Jehovah. Who has the reward? Jehovah.
Do you see the exact wording? None of the Scriptures you quoted have Jesus saying, “My reward is with me”. Can not Jehovah and Jesus both say “I am coming soon”? They will presumably arrive in New Jerusalem at the same time.
peace and love,
mike
Mike,The scriptures to which you refer are about God's past judgments in Israel's old covenant history.
The new covenant judge is Jesus Christ:
10For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 corinthians 5:10
It is from Christ they received the reward of the things they did.
and,
10But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. Rom. 14:10-11
The judgment seat of Christ is the judgment seat of God.
thinker
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