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Kathi,
The Sheppard of Hermas on the other hand, is regarded as genuine, considered canonical scripture by the earliest church, highly valued by the earliest Christians.
In Hermas, God is one. The Son is later introduced as the gate we must go through, there is no other way, which agrees with scripture.
Second Book: Commandments
First Commandment
ON FAITH IN GOD.
FIRST Of all, believe that there is one God who created and finished all things, and made all things out of nothing. He alone is able to contain the whole, but Himself cannot be contained. Have faith therefore in Him, and fear Him; and fearing Him, exercise self-control. Keep these commands, and you will cast away from you all wickedness, and put on the strength of righteousness, and live to God, if you keep this commandment.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html
So what is it? There are two Gods or one? Is the bible correct and the writing of Hermas or others?
Rena,
You can ask 100 different people and likely get a large number of various opinions. Walk by the Spirit and let the Spirit guide you in understanding why Jesus is called the mighty God.Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,18:09) Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,15:46) There is but one Almighty God on one side of the equation which encompasses two mighty Gods and their Spirit on the other side of the equation, as I understand it.
Your understanding makes us have TWO Gods, which is a heresy. Not even the Trinitarians go that far.
Mike,
I know you don't understand about how the two are in unity. Echad is not a number one but a unity.Yeah…………..it's ME who doesn't understand!
Kathi, do we call more than one person a “HE”?
“Echad” means the same in Hebrew as “one” means in English. We can say Jehovah is ONE, meaning there is only ONE of them. And we can say our hope is to be ONE with Jesus and his God, meaning a unity.
Now, tell me how all the singular pronouns lead you to believe that “echad” is talking about a unity of TWO Gods.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,16:28) Pierre, Quote here you are taking the wrong conclusion; scriptures are saying that he the beginning of creation before all things and so be the very first created being that God created,right. now all other thing that God created came to be trough HIM and this is what Paul is saying when he says ;THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, you see Paul got this in the old scriptures where it says all that ;;PROVERBE 8 ;22-31 We believe different translations and I think you come to wrong conclusions. The Son of God wasn't created…He always existed. I am not interested in going round and round with you on this Pierre. Read the 'Firstborn of/over all creation' thread and see what others said if you are interested to gain understanding.
God bless,
Kathi
Kathifirst you do not answer the question of what bible version you use?
secondly you do not present anything other than a twisted comment to a scripture that not support your way of thinking ,
third,you declared the conversation over because I can not understand or accept your view in the fact that Christ is the first creation and so the firstborn of all creation this i show you in scriptures but you reject it and still go with your opinion;and declared me not be able to understand scriptures?
come on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Pierre,
You never asked me what translation I used. I often use the NASB, NIV, NET Bible…whichever one I think translates the verse best according to the Greek or Hebrew.My opinion of what the firstborn over all creation is, happens to be common and that is why I directed you to the firstborn thread. It is clear that we aren't going to get anywhere so why keep going? Seems futile to me.
Back to the topic…
KathiQuote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,20:28) Yeah…………..it's ME who doesn't understand! Kathi, do we call more than one person a “HE”?
“Echad” means the same in Hebrew as “one” means in English. We can say Jehovah is ONE, meaning there is only ONE of them. And we can say our hope is to be ONE with Jesus and his God, meaning a unity.
Now, tell me how all the singular pronouns lead you to believe that “echad” is talking about a unity of TWO Gods.
Mike,
I have shown you how one side of the equation is singular and the other side of the equation is not.Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,21:15) Pierre,
You never asked me what translation I used. I often use the NASB, NIV, NET Bible…whichever one I think translates the verse best according to the Greek or Hebrew.My opinion of what the firstborn over all creation is, happens to be common and that is why I directed you to the firstborn thread. It is clear that we aren't going to get anywhere so why keep going? Seems futile to me.
Back to the topic…
Kathi
KathiRo 3:4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written:
“So that you may be proved right when you speak
and prevail when you judge.”think on this
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,22:02) Pierre,
Then you are a liar according to that verse?
Kathiyou are not excluded WO MEN got it
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,12:09) Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,18:09) Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,15:46) There is but one Almighty God on one side of the equation which encompasses two mighty Gods and their Spirit on the other side of the equation, as I understand it.
Your understanding makes us have TWO Gods, which is a heresy. Not even the Trinitarians go that far.
Mike,
I know you don't understand about how the two are in unity. Echad is not a number one but a unity.
That same oneness includes us. Please adjust your doctrine accordingly.t8,
Read this passage and then Gill's commentary on it. I agree with Gill here.
20“I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word; 21that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. 22“The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24“Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. 25“O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
And the glory which thou gavest me,…. Not the glory of his deity; this is the same with his Father, what he has in right of nature, and not by gift; nor can it be communicated to creatures; this would be to make them one in the Godhead, as the three are one, which is not the design of the expression in the close of the verse: nor his mediatorial glory, which he had with the Father before the world began; this indeed was given him by the Father, but is not given to the saints: nor the glory, of working miracles; which glory Christ had, and which, as man, he had from the Father, and in which his own glory was manifested; this he gave to his disciples; but all that are his have not had it, and some have had it who are none of his: rather the Gospel is meant, which is glorious in its author, matter and subject, in its doctrines, in the blessing: grace it reveals, and promises it contains, and in the efficacy and usefulness of it to the souls of men. This was given to Christ, and he gave it to his disciples:I have given them; as he did the words that were given to him, John 17:8,
that they may be one, even as we are one; for the Gospel was given to the apostles, and still is to the ministers of it, to bring men to the unity of the faith, for the perfecting of the saints, and the edifying of the body of Christ: or else the fulness both of grace and glory, which is in Christ's hands for his people, is here designed. This is one considerable branch of the glory of Christ, as Mediator, to be full of grace and truth; this was given him by the Father, and is what he communicates to his; even the Spirit, and all sorts of grace, and every supply of it; and which greatly contributes to the union of the saints among themselves: yea, eternal happiness is often signified by glory; and this is given to Christ; he has it in his hands to give to others; and he does give it, a view of it, a right unto it, a meetness for it, a pledge of it, some foretastes of it, and a kind of a possession of it; for the saints have it already, at least in him; and he will give them the actual enjoyment of it, and this in order to their consummate and perfect union together, as a glorious church without spot or wrinkle, or any such thing.
t8,
More about the Father and Jesus being one…“I and the Father are one.”
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
I and my Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, “I and my Father”, “we are one”; that is, in nature and essence, and perfections, particularly in power; since Christ is speaking of the impossibility of plucking any of the sheep, out of his own and his Father's hands; giving this as a reason for it, their unity of nature, and equality of power; so that it must be as impracticable to pluck them out of his hands, as out of his Father's, because he is equal with God the Father, and the one God with him. The Jew (p) objects, that“if the sense of this expression is, that the Father and the Son are one, as the Nazarenes understand and believe it, it will be found that Jesus himself destroys this saying, as it is written in Mark 13:32, for saith Jesus, “that day and that hour, there is knoweth, not the angels, nor the Son, but the Father only”; lo, these words show, that the Father and the Son are not one, since the Son does not know what the Father knows.''
But it should be observed, that Christ is both the Son of God, and the son of man, as the Christians believe; as he is the Son of God, he lay in the bosom of his Father, and was privy to all his secrets, to all his thoughts, purposes, and designs; and as such, he knew the day and hour of judgment, being God omniscient; and in this respect is one with the Father, having the same perfections of power, knowledge, &c. but then as the son of man, he is not of the same nature, and has not the same knowledge; his knowledge of things was derived, communicated, and not infinite; and did not reach to all things at once, but was capable of being increased, as it was: and it is with regard to him as the son of man, that Jesus speaks of himself in Mark 13:32;whereas he is here treating of his divine sonship, and almighty power; wherefore considered in the relation of the Son of God, and as possessed of the same perfections with God, he and his Father are one; though as man, he is different from him, and knew not some things he did: so that there is no contradiction between the words of Christ in one place, and in the other; nor is he chargeable with any blasphemy against God, or any arrogance in himself, by assuming deity to himself; nor deserving of punishment, even to be deprived of human life, as the Jew suggests; nor is what he produces from a Socinian writer, of any moment, that these words do not necessarily suppose, that the Father and the Son are of the same essence; since it may be said of two men, that they are one, end yet are not the same man, but one is one man, and the other another; for we do not say they are one and the same person, which does not follow from their being of one and the same nature, but that they are one God, and two distinct persons.
Quote (Lightenup @ June 28 2011,01:54) t8,
More about the Father and Jesus being one…“I and the Father are one.”
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
I and my Father are one. Not in person, for the Father must be a distinct person from the Son, and the Son a distinct person from the Father; and which is further manifest, from the use of the verb plural, “I and my Father”, “we are one”; that is, in nature and essence, and perfections, particularly in power; since Christ is speaking of the impossibility of plucking any of the sheep, out of his own and his Father's hands; giving this as a reason for it, their unity of nature, and equality of power; so that it must be as impracticable to pluck them out of his hands, as out of his Father's, because he is equal with God the Father, and the one God with him. The Jew (p) objects, that“if the sense of this expression is, that the Father and the Son are one, as the Nazarenes understand and believe it, it will be found that Jesus himself destroys this saying, as it is written in Mark 13:32, for saith Jesus, “that day and that hour, there is knoweth, not the angels, nor the Son, but the Father only”; lo, these words show, that the Father and the Son are not one, since the Son does not know what the Father knows.''
But it should be observed, that Christ is both the Son of God, and the son of man, as the Christians believe; as he is the Son of God, he lay in the bosom of his Father, and was privy to all his secrets, to all his thoughts, purposes, and designs; and as such, he knew the day and hour of judgment, being God omniscient; and in this respect is one with the Father, having the same perfections of power, knowledge, &c. but then as the son of man, he is not of the same nature, and has not the same knowledge; his knowledge of things was derived, communicated, and not infinite; and did not reach to all things at once, but was capable of being increased, as it was: and it is with regard to him as the son of man, that Jesus speaks of himself in Mark 13:32;whereas he is here treating of his divine sonship, and almighty power; wherefore considered in the relation of the Son of God, and as possessed of the same perfections with God, he and his Father are one; though as man, he is different from him, and knew not some things he did: so that there is no contradiction between the words of Christ in one place, and in the other; nor is he chargeable with any blasphemy against God, or any arrogance in himself, by assuming deity to himself; nor deserving of punishment, even to be deprived of human life, as the Jew suggests; nor is what he produces from a Socinian writer, of any moment, that these words do not necessarily suppose, that the Father and the Son are of the same essence; since it may be said of two men, that they are one, end yet are not the same man, but one is one man, and the other another; for we do not say they are one and the same person, which does not follow from their being of one and the same nature, but that they are one God, and two distinct persons.
Greetings Kathi …. I hope you enjoyed your vacation and all is well with you….I have been following your posts and I find myself,not in a critical posture but an inquisitive one…At the end of the day I need to know what you are gleening from these writings….Thanks Ted, all is well and I did enjoy my vacation very much. What I am gleaning from these Syriac historical documents are many things. I find the boldness and confidence in the early Christians very impressive and can imagine what an exciting time in our Christian history that must have been. Also, I have thought about how much the apostles would have learned about Christ just from the foreign tongue that the Spirit within them was speaking and testifying of Christ and the gospel of who He was. Everything that came from that spiritual language was truth. How that must have increased the apostle's confidence in what they were teaching in their own language. They knew that it was not them speaking that foreign language but the Spirit of God Himself speaking through them.
According to what is written in these documents, many debates here would be put to rest. Many times people debate the location of a comma, the absence of an article, the correct definition of a word, when these documents can set that straight in many instances. Not because they quote the verses in question but because they flat out call Jesus 'God' as the Son of God and to be worshipped with the Father. Also, they flat out call Jesus the creator and make a clear distinction between Him and created things.
What are they doing for you?
Love to you,
KathiHi Kathi:
I have never had the resource that you have introduce in this track, thank you , the bible.cc . I found it very interesting and many of my personal questions have been anwered. I should have caught on a long time ago, but there must be a time and a place for everything in my life.
thank you ….Hi Happyman,
You are very welcome. You are right…a time and a place for everything
I'm glad that this thread has helped you.
Love to you,
KathiKathi
Quote Also, I have thought about how much the apostles would have learned about Christ just from the foreign tongue that the Spirit within them was speaking and testifying of Christ and the gospel of who He was. Everything that came from that spiritual language was truth at the Pentecost ;Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?I would like to bring to your attention that the apostles spoke in there language but that what the people heard was in there own language,is it not ?
Pierre
Pierre,
The apostles spoke in a tongue that was different then their native tongue. One of the Syriac documents address this and agrees with the Bible.And from thence they went up to the city, and(7) proceeded to an upper room-that in which our Lord had observed the passover with them, and the place where the inquiries had been made: Who it was that should betray our Lord to the crucifiers? There also were made the inquiries:(8) How they should preach His Gospel in the world? And, as within the upper room the mystery of the body and of the blood of our Lord began to prevail in the world, so also from thence did the teaching of His preaching begin to have authority in the world.
And, when the disciples were cast into this perplexity, how they should preach His Gospel to men of strange tongues(9) which were unknown to them, and were speaking thus to one another: Although we are confident that Christ will perform by our hands mighty works and miracles in the presence of strange peoples whose tongues we know not, and who themselves also are unversed in our tongue, yet who shall teach them and make them understand that it is by the name of Christ who was crucified that these mighty works and miracles are done?-while, I say, the disciples were occupied with these thoughts, Simon Cephas rose up, and said to them: My brethren, this matter, how we shall preach His Gospel, pertaineth not to us, but to our Lord; for He knoweth how it is possible for us to preach His Gospel in the world; and we rely on His care for us, which He promised us, saying: “When I am ascended to my Father I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you everything which it is meet for you to know, and to make known.”
And, whilst Simon Cephas was saying these things to his fellow-apostles, and putting them in remembrance, a mysterious voice was heard by them, and a sweet odour, which was strange to the world, breathed upon them;(10) and tongues of fire, between the voice and the odour, came down from heaven(11) towards them, and alighted and sat on every one of them; and, according to the tongue which every one of them had severally received, so did he prepare himself to go to the country in which that tongue was spoken and heard.And, by the same gift of the Spirit which was given to them on that day, they appointed Ordinances and Laws-such as were in accordance with the Gospel of their preaching, and with the true and faithful doctrine of their teaching:
Also, remember that there is a gift from the Holy Spirit of interpretation.
from here: http://www.studylight.org/his….145.htm
Quote (Lightenup @ July 06 2011,13:58) Pierre,
The apostles spoke in a tongue that was different then their native tongue. One of the Syriac documents address this and agrees with the Bible.And from thence they went up to the city, and(7) proceeded to an upper room-that in which our Lord had observed the passover with them, and the place where the inquiries had been made: Who it was that should betray our Lord to the crucifiers? There also were made the inquiries:(8) How they should preach His Gospel in the world? And, as within the upper room the mystery of the body and of the blood of our Lord began to prevail in the world, so also from thence did the teaching of His preaching begin to have authority in the world.
And, when the disciples were cast into this perplexity, how they should preach His Gospel to men of strange tongues(9) which were unknown to them, and were speaking thus to one another: Although we are confident that Christ will perform by our hands mighty works and miracles in the presence of strange peoples whose tongues we know not, and who themselves also are unversed in our tongue, yet who shall teach them and make them understand that it is by the name of Christ who was crucified that these mighty works and miracles are done?-while, I say, the disciples were occupied with these thoughts, Simon Cephas rose up, and said to them: My brethren, this matter, how we shall preach His Gospel, pertaineth not to us, but to our Lord; for He knoweth how it is possible for us to preach His Gospel in the world; and we rely on His care for us, which He promised us, saying: “When I am ascended to my Father I will send you the Spirit, the Paraclete, that He may teach you everything which it is meet for you to know, and to make known.”
And, whilst Simon Cephas was saying these things to his fellow-apostles, and putting them in remembrance, a mysterious voice was heard by them, and a sweet odour, which was strange to the world, breathed upon them;(10) and tongues of fire, between the voice and the odour, came down from heaven(11) towards them, and alighted and sat on every one of them; and, according to the tongue which every one of them had severally received, so did he prepare himself to go to the country in which that tongue was spoken and heard.And, by the same gift of the Spirit which was given to them on that day, they appointed Ordinances and Laws-such as were in accordance with the Gospel of their preaching, and with the true and faithful doctrine of their teaching:
Also, remember that there is a gift from the Holy Spirit of interpretation.
from here: http://www.studylight.org/his….145.htm
Kathiyou are not believing scriptures ,the apostles did speak in there language in Act 2;7
read it ,do not fallow men,this was a miracle,
Pierre
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