Ancient Syriac Documents

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,23:50)

Pierre,
To understand the phrase 'firstborn over all creation' ask yourself who Jesus calls His 'Father.' Jesus doesn't call creation His 'Father.' He calls God His Father. Therefore He is the Firstborn of God, note that He is not first created but He is firstborn. God has given all things to Him, His Firstborn. Hence, He is called the 'Firstborn over all creation.' He is the firstborn of God and put over all of creation…

Kathi

i do not believe opinions over scriptures ,I may be not the brightest one on the planet but I am certainly not the stupid one neither

I still can read ,what it says ,and you try to convince me of what i see is not what i see ,but what you want me to see.

you must be in sales ? exellent psychology,but no thanks i do not buy it.

Pierre

June 26, 2011 at 3:09 pm#249939

theodorej

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 26 2011,13:14)

Yes Kathi,

There are many people out there who think Jesus is the Son of himself. They are wrong, so even if you post a million of them, it won't make them anymore right.

Add it up sister: Jesus is the Son OF God Almighty. If Jesus is also God Almighty, then he is his own Son.

And if you imagine a “God the Father” AND a “God the Son”, then you now have TWO Gods, and are a heretic.

And if you make the claim that they are two members of the SAME God, then my first point above cannot be avoided. For God never changes. And if Jesus IS a part of God Almighty, then Jesus has ALWAYS been a part of God Almighty. Therefore any “Son of God” would have no choice but to be a Son of the Jesus part of God as well as the Father part.

Think about this for a while, Kathi. Maybe you'll come to your senses.

I'm glad you've returned safely from your trip.

peace,
mike

Greetings Mik ….. Reasoning and logic are indeed fallable when it comes to humans ….. The hair splitting on this issue can be eliminted by simply inserting an element of quantum physics, which is the unknown….When you factor in the unknown(that being that Gods ways and knowledge are higher than ours) it becomes abundantly clear that the Son(The Word)and the Father(The IAM)are one in the same and the spirit is the essence and power of the one God Head..It is mans logic that speaks of three seperate entities or even two…in closing …Quantum science is a Gift from God and an extension of his ongoing creation….

June 26, 2011 at 4:33 pm#249947

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2011,22:55)

A parent = a person + his offspring

Okay, the “PERSON” is King David. The “OFFSPRING” is Solomon. The “PARENT” is King David with his offspring.

Here is your assertion:

First Solomon always existed within King David, who was merely a mighty king of Israel. Then King David brought Solomon forth. All of a sudden, Solomon was also a mighty king of Israel, who became the same being as the man who brought him forth, making the “Kinghead” consisting of the two of them an “Almighty King of Israel”.

How's that sound to you? Only in Bizzaro World would anyone claim such a thing.

June 26, 2011 at 4:39 pm#249948

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 25 2011,23:19)

Pierre,
No where does it say that God created His pre-existent Son. Any verse that you think implies that, has better translations than what you are looking at or your understanding is not correct. Until you see this you will remain in your error, imo.

Love to you,
Kathi

Sure it does. Prov 8:22, Col 1:15, Psalm 2:7, Acts 4:24, Rev 3:14, etc.

You can pretend that these scriptures have “better translations” in order to support your own man-made doctrine, but the words mean exactly what they say, no matter how hard you fight the truth. And every single being in existence who was “born” is also “created”, so the distinction you seek is simply not there. If Jesus was “born” at any time, then he is also a part of the creation of his God.

And until YOU see THAT, YOU will remain in YOUR error.

June 26, 2011 at 4:40 pm#249949

Blocked

Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2011,00:10)

you must be in sales ? exellent psychology,but no thanks i do not buy it.

Hear, hear!

June 26, 2011 at 5:01 pm#249950

Blocked

Quote (theodorej @ June 26 2011,09:09)

When you factor in the unknown(that being that Gods ways and knowledge are higher than ours) it becomes abundantly clear that the Son(The Word)and the Father(The IAM)are one in the same and the spirit is the essence and power of the one God Head

Hi Theo,

So it is the things that are unknown to you that make this conclusion abundantly clear?

Theo, Jesus is the Son OF “God”. So whoever and whatever makes up the Being of “God” ALWAYS makes up the Being of “God”, for “God” never changes.

So if Jesus is part of what makes up the Being of “God”, then Jesus has ALWAYS been a part of what makes up the Being of “God”, and therefore the Son OF “God” is the Son OF “Jesus AND Jehovah”. So Jesus is his own Son.

Also, it is simple logic that he who sends is someone other than he who is sent. So when “God” sent Jesus into the world, it was really “Jesus AND Jehovah” who sent Jesus into the world. Therefore, “Jesus” is someone OTHER THAN “Jesus AND Jehovah”, making him someone OTHER THAN himself.

And since whoever makes up the Being of “God” ALWAYS makes up the Being of “God”, when Jesus prayed to God, he was praying to “Himself AND Jehovah”.

I could go on and on all day displaying the utter nonsense that constitutes this comically flawed, man-made doctrine.

And I know that Kathi's first instinct of defense will be to say “Context dictates whether the 'God' mentioned is ONLY the Father, ONLY the Son, or the Father AND the Son together.” But GOD NEVER CHANGES. So when Abraham spoke to the only true God, he spoke to the EXACT SAME GOD that Jesus spoke to…………for there is but ONE God.

Come out of her, Theo.

peace,
mike

June 26, 2011 at 9:30 pm#249991

Participant

Mike,

Quote

But GOD NEVER CHANGES.

And that is why we should know that the Son always existed. There always was a Father, a Son, and their Holy Spirit.

June 26, 2011 at 9:39 pm#249992

Participant

Quote (terraricca @ June 26 2011,01:10)

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,23:50)

Kathi

i do not believe opinions over scriptures ,I may be not the brightest one on the planet but I am certainly not the stupid one neither

I still can read ,what it says ,and you try to convince me of what i see is not what i see ,but what you want me to see.

you must be in sales ? exellent psychology,but no thanks i do not buy it.

Pierre

Pierre,
Then read this:

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Now what about how I explained 'firstborn over all creation' isn't scriptural?

Jesus' Father is God, right? So He is the Firstborn of God, right? Do you agree with that?

It says 'firstBORN' not first created, right?

This passage says that all things have been created through Him and for Him, right?

So, if everything has been created for Him, then He would be 'over' those created things, right?

Then if He is the firstborn of God and is over all created things, then we can see why He is called 'the Firstborn over all creation.' Is that hard for you Pierre?

Can you answer those questions please?

Thanks,
Kathi

June 26, 2011 at 9:44 pm#249993

Rena

Participant

Really Kathi.

We have scriptures that have been sent by God around the world in fullfillment of prophecy.

Some think they have found hidden secrets, that no-one else knows or can read.

They dont know what these writings are, or where they have come from. all they have to go on is the internet.

They flash a nice smile and charm people with kindness but eventually their frustration starts to show. Doesn't it kathi.

June 26, 2011 at 9:46 pm#249994

Participant

Mike,

Quote

So when Abraham spoke to the only true God, he spoke to the EXACT SAME GOD that Jesus spoke to…………for there is but ONE God.

Actually Abraham was speaking face to face with Jehovah, the Son. The Father was never seen by man.

There is but one Almighty God on one side of the equation which encompasses two mighty Gods and their Spirit on the other side of the equation, as I understand it.

Kathi

June 26, 2011 at 9:51 pm#249996

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,15:30)

Mike,

Quote

But GOD NEVER CHANGES.

And that is why we should know that the Son always existed. There always was a Father, a Son, and their Holy Spirit.

Kathi

the son was not there at one point ,read Col1;15

Pierre

June 26, 2011 at 10:09 pm#249997

Participant

Pierre,
You assume that someone who was born started existing at the moment of birth but I don't know why you think that…even humans existed before they were born. I believe the Son always existed before He was begotten.

Kathi

June 26, 2011 at 10:11 pm#249998

Participant

Well Rena,
I have no reason to think the ancient Syriac documents that are posted here are inaccurate. My spirit bears witness to them or I wouldn't put them here.

June 26, 2011 at 10:15 pm#249999

Participant

Kathi

Quote

Pierre,
Then read this:

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

Now what about how I explained 'firstborn over all creation' isn't scriptural?

Jesus' Father is God, right? So He is the Firstborn of God, right? Do you agree with that?

It says 'firstBORN' not first created, right?

This passage says that all things have been created through Him and for Him, right?

So, if everything has been created for Him, then He would be 'over' those created things, right?

Then if He is the firstborn of God and is over all created things, then we can see why He is called 'the Firstborn over all creation.' Is that hard for you Pierre?

Can you answer those questions please?

Thanks,
Kathi

It says 'firstBORN' not first created, right?
yes it says firsborn,but he is born again from the dead; 18 he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy; so Christ has two birth days ?and look what it says verse 18 He is the beginning and………
are you ignoring those scriptures?

all your questions are a YES;

but this one ;Then if He is the firstborn of God and is over all created things, then we can see why He is called 'the Firstborn over all creation.' Is that hard for you Pierre?

here you are taking the wrong conclusion; scriptures are saying that he the beginning of creation before all things and so be the very first created being that God created,right. now all other thing that God created came to be trough HIM and this is what Paul is saying when he says ;THE FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, you see Paul got this in the old scriptures where it says all that ;;PROVERBE 8 ;22-31

SO YOU SEE Kathi SCRIPTURES ARE FULL OF SUPPORT OF CHRIST BEING THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION AND SO BECAME THE SON OF GOD,

but there is none that support your view unless you speculate your way by ignoring many scriptures and create confussion.

Pierre

June 26, 2011 at 10:20 pm#250001

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,16:09)

Kathi

next time you meet God ,you can ask him how long it took to make or create Christ his son,

then you can let us know,

it will have no bearing on the fact that he was the first born over all creation.

Pierre

June 26, 2011 at 10:28 pm#250006

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txua/syriac1.htm

Participant

Pierre,

Quote

We believe different translations and I think you come to wrong conclusions. The Son of God wasn't created…He always existed. I am not interested in going round and round with you on this Pierre. Read the 'Firstborn of/over all creation' thread and see what others said if you are interested to gain understanding.

God bless,
Kathi

June 26, 2011 at 10:53 pm#250009

Rena

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ June 27 2011,10:11)

Well Rena,
I have no reason to think the ancient Syriac documents that are posted here are inaccurate. My spirit bears witness to them or I wouldn't put them here.

Introductory Notice to Memoirs of Edessa and Other Syriac Documents

The Syriac Documents here subjoined are to be regarded as interesting relics of the primitive ages, but neither wholly genuine nor in details authentic. They have been interpolated and corrupted so as to reflect, in some particulars, ideas wholly repugnant to those of Christian antiquity, and which first received currency in the period of the Iconoclastic controversy.

June 26, 2011 at 11:06 pm#250013

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,15:30)

Mike,

Quote

But GOD NEVER CHANGES.

And that is why we should know that the Son always existed. There always was a Father, a Son, and their Holy Spirit.

And that is also why in your scenario, Jesus prayed to the “Jesus/Jehovah” God that Abraham and David also prayed to. Does that make sense?

And David ALWAYS had a son named Solomon. Does that make sense?

June 26, 2011 at 11:09 pm#250014

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ June 26 2011,15:46)

There is but one Almighty God on one side of the equation which encompasses two mighty Gods and their Spirit on the other side of the equation, as I understand it.

Your understanding makes us have TWO Gods, which is a heresy. Not even the Trinitarians go that far.

June 26, 2011 at 11:13 pm#250015