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t8,
You really need to read these documents and tell me which one of us is more in line with what is being said. It can't be my own understanding if my understanding lines up with Peter's. If what you are understanding doesn't line up with the apostle's and disciples of those apostle's, then it is more likely that you are the one that is teaching different ideas. So, you just read what is here and tell me if it agrees with you or not.http://new.studylight.org/his/ecf/view.cgi?sid=ant&aid=08-08
Kathi, scripture and the commandments do not teach the Trinity. It is a confusion with theos as in nature or THEOS as in identity. The same confusion the Pharisees had with Jesus.
It doesn't matter what ancient book you read, if you make that mistake or do not understand the difference, then you will get the wrong idea from any book.
If you understand that there is one who is THE Theos, Adam, or Devil, and many who qualify as theos, adam, and devils, then there is no contradiction.
If you cannot distinguish it, then Eve is Adam, or Judas is the Devil, and Jesus is the God. So reading any book on spiritual matters will lead to confusion. And creating a doctrine to explain the confusion by adding more than one member as being identified as the being, then that is just plain wrong.
t8
Obviously you didn't read the documents. I am not teaching a trinity doctrine. I am interested in Christianity. Please read the documents and discuss them, that is what this topic is about, thanks.Quote (Lightenup @ June 03 2011,03:47) t8
Obviously you didn't read the documents. I am not teaching a trinity doctrine. I am interested in Christianity. Please read the documents and discuss them, that is what this topic is about, thanks.
Greetings Kathi…. I have the same inquisitive nature and in the process of pursuing knowledge we encounter information that is valid and provable and on the other hand we come upon misinformation that is very confusing…Knowledge is power and power corrupts….I couldn't help but notice the cast of interlects that have embraced this subject and have added more confusion by virtue of theory and revisionist reconstructed history….Their vanity is evident by their necesscity to let all who are reading their theories know that they are academics held in high esteem by virtue of pieces of paper attesting to their brilliance…Before any in depth study of these teachings, the reader is forwarned that Mr.Pratten is an author of confusion and the cadre of acamdemics that chime in with further confusion leads me to take with a grain of salt so to speak the material presented….God is not the author of confusion and let us focus on the vanity of the pharasee when it came to the writings of the prophets and at the same time Jesus told us to be as little children and from that demeanor will come a good understanding…..Hi Ted,
As with everything, it needs to be tested. Believers have the Spirit within them to guide them. Good thing
As far as what these documents are saying, I find they line up to the beliefs of the majority of early church fathers. I did not get the same understanding about Mr. Pratten. I think the author of the introduction was just stating that the bits and pieces of Syriac documents weren't organized into the proper volumes, in his opinion. That doesn't mean that Pratten is an author of confusion.
Reading these documents did not bring confusion to me. I thought they were uplifting and confirmed what I have been understanding. You are right about trusting in God as a little child. I can only go by what I sense He is leading me to understand, and I trust Him
Blessings,
KathiThis next ancient historical Syriac document is about a man named Sharbil. He had been a priest to idols until his conversion to Christianity. This is very interesting! It shows the power that the emperors had to torture anyone who did not sacrifice to their gods made out of stone. Notice how this document confesses that Christ was to be worshipped along with His Father and that He was not considered a creature, i.e. one who is created.
Acts of Sharbil
Who Was a Priest of Idols, and Was Converted to the Confession of Christianity in Christ.(2)In the fifteenth year of the Sovereign Ruler(3) Trajan Caesar,(4) and in the third year of King Abgar the Seventh,(5) which is the year 416 of the kingdom of Alexander king of the Greeks, and in the priesthood of Sharbil and Barsamya,(6) Trajan Caesar commanded the governors of the countries under his dominion that sacrifices and libations should be increased in all the cities of their administration, and that those who did not sacrifice should be seized and delivered over to stripes, and to the tearing of combs, and to bitter inflictions of all kinds of tortures, and should afterwards receive the punishment of the sword.
Now, when the command arrived at the town of Edessa of the Parthians, there was a great festival, on the eighth of Nisan, on the third day of the week: the whole city was gathered together by the great altar(7) which was in the middle of the town, opposite the Record office,(8) all the gods having been brought together, and decorated, and sitting in honour, both Nebu and Bel together with their fellows. And all the priests were offering incense of spices and libations,(9) and an odour of sweetness was diffusing itself around, and sheep and oxen were being slaughtered, and the sound of the harp and the drum was heard in the whole town. And Sharbil was chief and ruler of all the priests; and he was honoured above all his fellows, and was clad in splendid and magnificent vestments; and a headband embossed with figures of gold was set upon his head; and at the bidding of his word everything that he ordered was done. And Abgar the king, son of the gods, was standing at the head of the people. And they obeyed Sharbil, because he drew nearer to all the gods than any of his fellows, and as being the one who according to that which he had heard from the gods returned an answer to every man.
And, while these things were being done by the command of the king, Barsamya, the bishop of the Christians, went up to Sharbil, he and Tiridath the elder and Shalula the deacon; and he said to Sharbil, the high priest: The King Christ, to whom belong heaven and earth, will demand an account at thy hands of all these souls against whom thou art sinning, and whom thou art misleading, and turning away from the God of verity and of truth to idols that are made and deceitful, which are not able to do anything with their hands-moreover also thou hast no pity on thine own soul, which is destitute of the true life of God; and thou declarest to this people that the dumb idols talk with thee; and, as if thou wert listening to something from them, thou puttest thine ear near to one and another of them, and sayest to this people: The god Nebu bade me say to you,” On account of your sacrifices and oblations I cause peace in this your country; “and: Bel saith, “I cause great plenty in your land; “and those who hear this from thee do not discern that thou art greatly deceiving them-because “they have a mouth and speak not, and they have eyes and see not with them; “it is ye who bear up them, and not they who bear up(10) you, as ye suppose; and it is ye who set tables before them, and not they who feed you. And now be persuaded by me touching that which I say to thee and advise thee. If thou be willing to hearken to me, abandon idols made, and worship God the Maker of all things, and His Son Jesus Christ. Do not, because He put on a body and became man and was stretched out on the cross of death, be ashamed of Him and refuse to worship Him: for, all these things which He endured-it was for the salvation of men and for their deliverance. For this One who put on a body is God, the Son of God, Son of the essence of His Father, and Son of the nature of Him who begat Him: for He is the adorable brightness of His Godhead, and is the glorious manifestation of His majesty, and together with His Father He existed from eternity and from everlasting, His arm, and His right hand, and His power, and His wisdom, and His strength, and the living Spirit which is from Him, the Expiator and Sanctifier of all His worshippers. These are the things which Palut taught us, with whom thy venerable self(11) was acquainted; and thou knowest that Palut was the disciple of Addaeus the apostle. Abgar the king also, who was older than this Abgar, who himself worshippeth idols as well as thou, he too believed in the King Christ, the Son of Him whom thou callest Lord of all the gods.(12) For it is forbidden to Christians to worship anything that is made, and is a creature, and in its nature is not God: even as ye worship idols made by men,(13) who themselves also are made and created. Be persuaded, therefore, by these things which I have said to thee, which things are the belief of the Church: for I know that all this population are looking to thee, and I am well assured that, if thou be persuaded, many also will persuaded with thee.(14)
Sharbil said to him: Very acceptable to me are these thy words which thou hast spoken before me; yea, exceedingly acceptable are they to me. But, as for me, I know that I am outcast from(15) all these things, and there is no longer any remedy for me. And, now that hope is cut off from me, why weariest thou thyself about a man dead and buried,(16) for whose death there is no hope of resuscitation? For I am slain by paganism, and am become a dead man, the property of the Evil One: in sacrifices and libations of imposture have I consumed all the days of my life.
And, when Barsamya the bishop heard these things,(17) he fell down before his feet, and said to him: There is hope for those who turn, and healing for those that are wounded. I myself will be surety to thee for the abundant mercies of the Son Christ: that He will pardon thee all the sins which thou hast committed against Him, in that thou hast worshipped and honoured His creatures instead of Himself. For that Gracious One, who extended Himself on the cross of death, will not withhold His grace from the souls that comply with His precepts and take refuge in His kindness which has been displayed towards us. Like as He did towards the robber, so is He able to do to thee, and also to those who are like thee.
Sharbil said to him: Thou, like a skilful physician, who suffers pain from the pain of the afflicted, hast done well in that thou hast been concerned about me. But at present, because it is the festival to-day of this people, of every one of them, I cannot go down with thee to-day to the church. Depart thou, and go down with honour; and to-morrow at night I will come down to thee: I too have henceforth renounced for myself the gods made with hands, and I will confess the Lord Christ, the Maker of all men.
And the next day Sharbil arose and went down to Barsamya by night, he and Babai his sister; and he was received by the whole church. And he said to them: Offer for me prayer and supplication, that Christ may forgive me all the sins that I have committed against Him in all this long course of years. And, because they were in dread of the persecutors, they arose and gave him the seal of salvation,(18) whilst he confessed the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.(19)
And, when all the city had heard that he was gone down to the church, there began to be a consternation among the multitude; and they arose and went down to him, and saw him clad in the fashion of the Christians.(20) And he said to them: May the Son Christ forgive me all the si
ns that I have committed against you, and all in which I made you think that the gods talked with me, whereas they did not talk; and, forasmuch as I have been to you a cause of abomination, may I now be to you a cause of good: instead of worshipping, as formerly, idols made with hands, may ye henceforth worship God the Maker. And, when they had heard these things, there remained with him a great congregation of men and of women; and Labu also, and Hafsai, and Barcalba, and Avida, chief persons of the city. They all said to Sharbil: Henceforth we also renounce that which thou hast renounced, and we confess the King Christ, whom thou hast confessed.But Lysanias,(21) the judge of the country, when he heard(22) that Sharbil had done this,(23) sent by night(24) and carded him off from the church. And there went up with him many Christians. And he sat down, to hear him and to judge him, before the altar which is in the middle of the town, where he used to sacrifice to the gods. And he said to him: Wherefore hast thou renounced the gods, whom thou didst worship, and to whom thou didst sacrifice, and to whom thou wast made chief of the priests, and lo! dost today confess Christ, whom thou didst formerly deny? For see how those Christians, to whom thou art gone, renounce not that which they have held,(25) like as thou hast renounced that in which thou wast born. If thou art assured of the gods, how is it that thou hast renounced them this day? But, if on the contrary thou art not assured, as thou declarest concerning them, how is it that thou didst once sacrifice to them and worship them?
Sharbil said: When I was blinded in my mind, I worshipped that which I knew not; but to-day, inasmuch as I have obtained the clear eyes of the mind, it is henceforth impossible that I should stumble at carved stones, or that I should any longer be the cause of stumbling to others. For it is a great disgrace to him whose eyes are open, if he goes and falls into the pit of destruction.
The judge said: Because thou hast been priest of the venerable gods, and hast been partaker of the mystery of those whom the mighty emperors(26) worship, I will have patience with thee, in order that thou mayest be persuaded by me, and not turn away from the service of the gods; but, if on the contrary thou shall not be persuaded by me, by those same gods whom thou hast renounced I swear that, even as on a man that is a murderer, so will I inflict tortures on thee, and will avenge on thee the wrong done to the gods, whom thou hast rebelled against and renounced, and also the insult which thou hast poured upon them; nor will I leave untried any kind of tortures which I will not inflict on thee; and, like as thine honour formerly was great, so will I make thine ignominy great this day.
Sharbil said: I too, on my part, am not content that thou shouldest look upon me as formerly, wheel I worshipped gods made with hands; but look thou upon me to-day and question me as a Christian man renouncing idols and confessing the King Christ.
The judge said: How is it that thou art not afraid of the emperors, nor moved to shame by those who are listening to thy trial, that thou sayest, “I am a Christian”? But promise that thou wilt sacrifice to the gods, according to thy former custom, so that thy honour may be great, as formerly-lest I make to tremble at thee all those who have believed like thyself.
Sharbil said: Of the King of kings I am afraid, but at any king of earth I tremble not, nor yet at thy threats towards me, which lo! thou utterest against the worshippers of Christ: whom I confessed yesterday, and lo! I am brought to trial for His sake to-day, like as He Himself was brought to trial for the sake of sinners like me.
The judge said: Although thou have no pity on thyself, still I will have pity on thee, and refrain from cutting off those hands of thine with which thou hast placed incense before the gods, and from stopping with thy blood those ears of thine which have heard their mysteries, and thy tongue which has interpreted and explained to us their secret things. Of those gods lo! I am afraid, and I have pity on thee. But, if thou continue thus, those gods be my witnesses that I will have no pity on thee!
Sharbil said: As a man who art afraid of the emperors and tremblest at idols, have thou no pity on me. For, as for me, I know not what thou sayest: therefore also is my mind not shaken or terrified by those things which thou sayest. For by thy judgments shall all they escape from the judgment to come who do not worship that which is not God in its own nature.
The judge said: Let him be scourged with thongs,(27) because he has dared to answer me thus, and has resisted the command of the emperors, and has not appreciated the honour which the gods conferred on him: inasmuch as, lo! he has renounced them.
And he was scourged by ten men, who laid hold on him, according to the command of the judge.
Sharbil said: Thou art not aware of the scourging of justice in that world which is to come. For thou wilt cease, and thy judgments also will pass away; but justice will not pass away, nor will its retributions come to an end.
The judge(28) said: Thou art so intoxicated with this same Christianity, that thou dost not even know(29) before whom thou art judged, and by whom it is that thou art scourged-even by those who formerly held thee in honour, and paid adoration to thy priesthood in the gods. Why dost thou hate honour, and love this ignominy? For, although thou speakest contrary to the law, yet I myself cannot turn aside from the laws of the emperors.
Sharbil said: As thou takest heed not to depart from the laws of the emperors, and if moreover thou depart from them thou knowest what command they will give concerning thee, so do I also take heed not to decline from the law of Him who said, “Thou shalt not worship any image, nor any likeness; “and therefore will I not sacrifice to idols made with hands: for long enough was the time in which I sacrificed to them, when I was in ignorance.
The judge said: Bring not upon thee punishment(30) in addition to the punishment which thou hast already brought upon thee. Enough is it for thee to have said, “I will not sacrifice: “do not dare to insult the gods, by calling them manufactured idols whom even the emperors honour.
Sharbil said: But, if on behalf of the emperors, who are far away and not near at hand and not conscious of those who treat their commands with contempt, thou biddest me sacrifice, how is it that on behalf of idols, who lo! are present and are seen, but see not, thou biddest me sacrifice? Why, hereby thou hast declared before all thy attendants(31) that, because they have a mouth and speak not, lo! thou art become a pleader for them: dumb idols “to whom their makers shall be like,” and “every one that trusteth upon them” shall be like thee.
The judge said: It was not for this that thou wast called before me-that, instead of paying the honour which is due, thou shouldst despise the emperors. But draw near to the gods and sacrifice, and have pity on thyself, thou self-despiser!
Sharbil said: Why should it be requisite for thee to ask me many questions, after that which I have said to thee: “I will not sacrifice”? Thou hast called me a self-despiser? But would that from my childhood I had had this mind and had thus despised myself,(32) which was perishing!
The judge said: Hang him up, and tear him with combs on his sides.-And while he was thus torn he cried aloud and said: It is for the sake of Christ, who has secretly caused His light to arise upon the darkness of my mind. And, when he had thus spoken, the judge commanded again that he should be torn with combs on his face.
Sharbil said: It is better that thou shouldest inflict tortures upon me for not sacrificing, than that I should be judged there for having sacrificed to the work of men's hands.
The judge said: Let his body be bent backwards, and let straps be tied to his hands and his feet; and, whe
n he has been bent backwards, let him be scourged on his belly.And they scourged him in this manner, according to the command of the judge.
Then he commanded that he should go up to the prison, and that he should be east into a dark dungeon. And the executioners,(33) and the Christians who had come up with him from the church, carried him, because he was not able to walk upon his feet in consequence of his having been bent backwards. And he was in the gaol many days.
But on the second of Ilul,(34) on the third day of the week, the judge arose and went down to his judgment-hall by night; and the whole body of his attendants was with him; and he commanded the keeper of the prison, and they brought him before him. And the judge said to him: This long while hast thou been in prison: what has been thy determination concerning those things on which thou wast questioned before me? Dost thou consent to minister to the gods according to thy former custom, agreeably to the command of the emperors?
Sharbil said: This has been my determination in the prison, that that with which I began before thee, I will finish even to the last; nor will I play false with my word. For I will not again confess idols, which I have renounced; nor will I renounce the King Christ, whom I have confessed.
The judge said: Hang him up by his right hand, because he has withdrawn it from the gods that he may not again offer incense with it, until his hand with which he ministered to the gods be dislocated, because he persists in this saying of his.
And, while he was suspended by his hand, they asked him and said to him: Dost thou consent to sacrifice to the gods? But he was not able to return them an answer, on account of the dislocation of his arm. And the judge commanded, and they loosed him and took him down. But he was not able to bring his arm up to his side, until the executioners pressed it and brought it up to his side.
The judge said: Put on incense, and go whithersoever thou wilt, and no one shall compel thee to be a priest again. But, if thou wilt not, I will show thee tortures bitterer than these.
Sharbil said: As for gods that made not the heavens and the earth, may they perish from under these heavens! But thou, menace me not with words of threatening; but, instead of words, show upon me the deeds of threatening, that I hear thee not again making mention of the detestable name of gods!
The judge said: Let him be branded with the brand of bitter fire between his eyes and upon his cheeks.
And the executioners did so, until the smell of the branding reeked forth in the midst of the judgment-hall: but he refused to sacrifice.
Sharbil said: Thou hast heard for thyself from me, when I said to thee “Thou art not aware of the smoke of the roasting of the fire which is prepared for those who, like thee, confess idols made by hands, and deny the living God, after thy fashion.”
The judge said: Who taught thee all these things, that thou shouldest speak before me thus-a man who was a friend of the gods and an enemy of Christ, whereas, lo! thou art become his advocate.
Sharbil said: Christ whom I have confessed, He it is that hath taught me to speak thus. But there needeth not that I should be His advocate, for His own mercies are eloquent advocates for guilty ones like me, and these will avail to plead(35) on my behalf in the day when the sentences shall be eternal.
The above info is only the first page of three…found here: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-147For the rest of the story, go here:
http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-147Quote (Lightenup @ June 03 2011,10:47) t8
Obviously you didn't read the documents. I am not teaching a trinity doctrine. I am interested in Christianity. Please read the documents and discuss them, that is what this topic is about, thanks.
KathiChristianity or Judaism is the same thing they both fail to serve God and so are Antichrist in there spirit ,
anyone join them will also become Antichrist.
can't stick to scriptures ,well then make your pick anything goes.
Pierre
Greetings Kathi….. It is easy to understand the level of interest you have in these writings,they appear to be supportive of our common belief system and they even exhalt the devinity of Jesus….For give me for my laziness with respect to the reading of these manuscripts….Beware of the subtleties in the message,although the recognition of the christ is evedent I couldn't help but notice the backdrop,which consisted of brutality and Idolatry…..Jesus said ” For many will come saying Iam the Christ and they shall deceive many”….
Quote (Lightenup @ June 03 2011,03:47) t8
Obviously you didn't read the documents. I am not teaching a trinity doctrine. I am interested in Christianity. Please read the documents and discuss them, that is what this topic is about, thanks.
I discussed quotes from that book. Your quotes.
I gave answers to your quotes.You can't force people to read a whole book. I have read some great books in my time, but I would feel very pushy if i required that people read the same books or book I have.
If you quote from that book, I should be able to talk about that quote. My point was that if you do not understand the difference between identity and nature, then a person will make the same mistake that Jesus is God from reading any book.
I also made the observation that Judas was called devil and Eve was adam and yet we do not go around saying that Judas is THE Devil and Eve is Adam do we? Yet with the same rule, they say “Jesus is THE God”. This is the bias I am exposing.
I am telling the truth that Eve is in nature adam, Judas was in character devil, and Jesus in nature divine.
It even says in scripture that he existed with divine nature, so that is what I am saying that most of these so-called Trinity proof verses are really talking about nature or attributes of character as opposed to being identified as God.
If you do not think I have a point, then that is OK, with me. I at least post this for the benefit of others who might understand it.
I also like to say that many translators have a Trinitarian bias and rarely do they understand the difference between nature and identity and thus word their translations toward Jesus being God. If translators do that with John 1:1 and other verses in the bible, then why not in other books too. There are even Trinitarian translators who are aware of this bias and thus you might hear “And the Word was divine”.
When I see a statement that says that Jesus is God, I first of all know that this is a contradiction to many scriptures and then look at the original language and there is always something telling when you compare the translation with the older text. Most people do not dig that deep because they are unaware of how the Greek works with definite articles for a start.
I am simply taking your quotes and asking you to dig deeper Kathi. It is not healthy to be blown about from one belief to another by natural forces. We should be steering the ship toward truth and yes we may have to make turns even sharp ones at times, but bouncing around from one thing to another is not the same thing.
t8,
I didn't ask you to read a 'book,' just some documents which are 1-3 pages long, heck, just read the three that I have put up so far. I would hardly call that a 'book.' Also, I would hardly describe me as bouncing around from one thing to another. Geesh! I have been expressing that Jesus was the literal Son of God since day one here. I'm just growing in more understanding of what that really means. Take a chill pill t8.Just read this, for example, and tell me why you think the trinity doctrine is being taught here. I don't see the word 'trinity' here, nor 'three in one' nor 'triune Godhead' nor calling the Holy Spirit a person. What here do you think is unscriptural?
Quote For this One who put on a body is God, the Son of God, Son of the essence of His Father, and Son of the nature of Him who begat Him: for He is the adorable brightness of His Godhead, and is the glorious manifestation of His majesty, and together with His Father He existed from eternity and from everlasting, His arm, and His right hand, and His power, and His wisdom, and His strength, and the living Spirit which is from Him, the Expiator and Sanctifier of all His worshippers. The above excerpt from the document in the sixth post down on this page and also found here in its entirety: http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-147
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2011,13:14) I'm just growing in more understanding of what that really means.
In that process, you seem to be growing ever farther away from what God's written words actually teach us.You would benefit to dwell on what it really means to be the literal Son of God, Mike. Then you would understand better.
I'll stick to dwelling on what the scriptures actually teach, Kathi. And I have yet to read a scripture that says, “Since we know Jesus is God's literal Son, we also know that he is the only son who was ever begotten, created, born, and had his beginning after he already existed from eternity”. So in the absence of said scripture, I have no reason to jump to the conclusion that your imagination has taken you to.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,13:26) You would benefit to dwell on what it really means to be the literal Son of God, Mike. Then you would understand better.
Kathimost of the scriptures many do not understand ,and so are driven away to other written books were there is more latitude to express themself in every direction they feel,
but this does not mean it is the truth of God ,it is only your truth of a lie to God.
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,16:37) Prove it then Pierre, or don't say such things!
Kathiyou know in the other topics you also try to show some relevance with other writers,but those are but men opinions,
unless they confirm the scriptures we have only opinions
and why do i have to prove anything,you can not prove what you want to make others believe because it is an opinion and so not scriptural truth.
do you really believe that you are alone to try to interpret the scriptures in a personal way,no many do that today many evangelist do that some go to set the date of the end ,and look what happen,nothing and there followers are left in disbelieve and pocket empty,
this is the time were we will see many false teachers rising because of the wealth that it bring,but those people seem not to see the lot attached to it ;DEAD
as i told you i start with the books and realize it was a waste of money and time ,when we have the word of God right in our hands for one dollars.
but do we have the heart for God and his Son ???this is the question.
Pierre
Pierre,
Jesus said that if people did not receive the apostle's words about Him, who were MEN btw and there were 72 of them, one of them being Addeaus whose document is on this thread, then they should shake off the dust off their feet and walk away from them.What did he say that scriptures don't agree with?
Addaeus' words are here:
http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-143Quote (Lightenup @ June 05 2011,19:12) one of them being Addeaus
What SCRIPTURE tells you that Addeaus was one of the 72?Quote (Lightenup @ June 06 2011,19:12) Pierre,
Jesus said that if people did not receive the apostle's words about Him, who were MEN btw and there were 72 of them, one of them being Addeaus whose document is on this thread, then they should shake off the dust off their feet and walk away from them.What did he say that scriptures don't agree with?
Addaeus' words are here:
http://new.studylight.org/his….f08-143
KathiI recall that Jesus open the understanding to the twelve only,
and when he prayed ;was he not only with the twelve ?
Jn 17:6 “I have revealed you(Father) to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.
Jn 17:7 Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you.
Jn 17:8 For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me.
Jn 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
Jn 17:10 All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them.
Jn 17:11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.
Jn 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.
Jn 17:13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them.
Jn 17:14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world.
Jn 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.
Jn 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
Jn 17:17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.
Jn 17:18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
Jn 17:19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.Jn 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone(the twelve). I pray also for those who will believe in me through their(twelve) message,
I do not denie that those people have existed but this is the way the scriptures teaches me,
now if you say that that person just confirm scriptures why be botter with it when i have the scriptures ,
look in verse 17;17 what it says ;
Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth
Pierre
Pierre,
Learn about the 70, (in some documents it says 72) sent out ones here:1Now after this the Lord appointed seventy others, and sent them in pairs ahead of Him to every city and place where He Himself was going to come. 2And He was saying to them, “The harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few; therefore beseech the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest. 3“Go; behold, I send you out as lambs in the midst of wolves. 4“Carry no money belt, no bag, no shoes; and greet no one on the way. 5“Whatever house you enter, first say, ‘Peace be to this house.’ 6“If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; but if not, it will return to you. 7“Stay in that house, eating and drinking what they give you; for the laborer is worthy of his wages. Do not keep moving from house to house. 8“Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10“But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12“I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.
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