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Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 02 2011,04:01) Irene,
You say this in this thread:Quote Making remarks about others believes is uncalled for and then you said this in another thread:
Quote Nobody insulted you, only your doctrine…. https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….3;st=20
So which is it Irene…it is ok for you to insult another's doctrine if you and your buddies are the insulter? Are you confused here?
Kathi! The only reason I said that is because of you feeling insulted by princess…. not that I insulted you because you speak the truth… An the other hand I gave Scriptures that plainly say that God is a creator, which you insulted me with….. also when you insulted me, how many times did you, in the discussion we only had? Why do you think I wanted to close that tread? It is because of that…. Read the post I found on the Internet I am not the only one that believes God is a creator, and Jesus being the firstborn of all creation, or the beginning of it…… …Your the one who started it all by saying how wrong my believes are…. Yet, I can prove mine, while yours is against the Scriptures that prove Jehovah .is the name of our Heavenly Fathers alone….When are you going to stop insulting me? You can dish it out, but can't take….And Kathi, I have never denied the Son of God…. He will always be my Savior and Lord, but not Jehovah, that ALONE is His Fathers name……Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2011,22:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2011,22:07) Kathi, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you believe these scriptures? And if so, what do they teach us? mike
Mike,
Jehovah is the most High what…God AND Lord..Father AND Son.Jesus is the Son of the Father. THEY are both part of the unity of the Most High. Jesus is the Son part within the Most High, the Father is the Father part within the Most High…AND each of them are the Most High in their respective positions.
Kathi
Hi Kathi,I asked what those two scriptures teach us. They teach me that our Most High God, Jehovah, HAS a Son. It does not teach me that our Most High God, Jehovah, CONSISTS OF a Father and a Son.
When I first told you that I have a son, did you assume that I was a “Mike-head”, consisting of myself AND my son?
Exodus 3
13 Nevertheless, Moses said to the [true] God: “Suppose I am now come to the sons of Israel and I do say to them, ‘The God of YOUR forefathers has sent me to YOU,’ and they do say to me, ‘What is his name?’ What shall I say to them?” 14 At this God said to Moses: “I SHALL PROVE TO BE WHAT I SHALL PROVE TO BE.” And he added: “This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘I SHALL PROVE TO BE has sent me to YOU.’” 15 Then God said once more to Moses:
“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of YOUR forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to YOU.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.Exodus 6:2
2 And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah. 3 And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, but as respects my name Jehovah, I did not make myself known to them.I see no mention of a Son or a Lord saying OUR Name is Jehovah, do you Kathi? I only see GOD Almighty saying that HIS Name is Jehovah.
Come out of her my friend.
peace,
mikeOk, shimmer, thanks for sharing.
I would like to ask you one thing about what you shared. You say that Jesus told you to look up verses. If I remember right, you believe that Jesus is a created angel. How can Jesus be just a created angel and not deity and tell you things when He isn't in the room, visibly? How can He be telling people things in America at the same time He is telling people things in NZ if He is just a created angel and not deity? Maybe that isn't what you believe. At one point you said that you believed that Jesus was deity and then said that the Father was the only deity. At another point I think that you believed that Jesus was a created angel. I'm really not sure what you believe about Jesus. Was He created out of nothing, or was He begotten from within the Father? If He was created, what type of being was He created to be?
Kathi
Kathi,
Having faith is just believing.
The most confusion I have ever faced is this question others have of who Jesus is/Was. There are so many opinions.
I do know Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. And Im not alone in that. Jesus asked the Disciples who they thought he was. They said he was the Son of God, the Christ. Jesus said, that God revealed that to them.Matthew :
(Jesus said) “Who do men say that the Son of man is?”
And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Eli'jah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”
Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven”.Did they need to know more?
Jesus is the Christ.
Jesus is the Son of God.
Thats all God ever revealed to me. Anything else was Mans teachings.It may explain why you think I change my mind so often on this forum with this, because God revealed nothing. It was only Man – flesh and blood discussions.
When God wants us to know something, it happens.
Shimmer,
Thanks for your answer.Another question. You said that you believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God and that was what God revealed to you. Can you tell me how God revealed that to you? Was it by reading the verse that you wrote in your post and then you just accepted it as truth, or was it in a different manner?
Kathi
Kathi, Ill get back to you when Iv given it some thought. I have to go right back years ago, so I will.
Kathi, firstly,
One thing I know is God is a dicipinarian. God is 'tough'. But God is love. GOD DISCIPLINES THOSE HE LOVES.
This was the first thing that was ever revealed to me. I had been a (Very lukewarm) believer all my life, but this was something else.
This was revealed to me through the inner voice of God and out of the blue, totally unexpected, I didnt even own a Bible myself, and after “terrifying” me – ha, with verses such as I would be cursed etc and my family because of some of the things I was doing, and the fact I realized I was being watched! Totally…. I was kindly, lovingly reassured, with verse, that 'God disciplines those he loves' (memories!).
I obeyed all I was shown to do. It was nothing drastic. I just had to stop taking the Lords name in vain (Stop saying OMG, and stop swearing on the Bible). And I had to remove all graven images from my house and focus on God not earthly things. Now this may seem such a small request from God. But it is actually in the ten commandments.
Next was my heart. God showed me love. It happened when I was praying. And in vision. The feeling I get in my heart of love is toward God and others. It grows, a warm feeling across my chest. And I also was shown compassion for others. I know when Im right with God because the sign is this feeling of love, it comes and goes. Since last night it has come back. I feel it now as I write to you! See. Even though a couple of days ago you were my enemy!
So thats what I was shown.
Its a long story, would take far too long to write. I was led to Islam. NOT because I was supposed to be a Muslim but because I believe it was my calling. (The people I was supposed to work with). I had to learn their ways first. (I never read the Quran, only learnt their ways). When it came to the final crunch, of denying Christ in order to be a Muslim I couldnt and wouldnt do it.
Anyway, back to the question, I always understood Jesus to be the Son of God and God to be the Father. As to the specifics, all I knew is God worked with me, and the Son. Sometimes I prayed and felt God the Father. Sometimes I prayed and it was God the Son. (I feel no wrong saying God the Son I never have). I cannot possibly tell you who Jesus was prior to appearing on Earth. It was never revealed to me. My understanding was through prayer and reading Scripture. Where I went wrong, honestly, was too much reading. I was searching for answers outside of me, in books, on the internet. But why? God was with me, in me, God was there when I prayed. Why did I NEED to look elsewhere? Why did I need to look for a Church? I believe we are the church.
To me, faith is simple, not complicated. God only reveals what he will to who he will and when he will.
Is God working in your life, that is the question.
So, sorry, no, I cannot answer your question exactly. I dont know.
If I try to answer it Im forcing it, and its not revealed by God but by my own mind.
If I think of anything else Ill post it.
Wow, just reading your post, shimmer I feel the love you have for our God,,, so great that God called you…. And what you did to get rid of all idols… seems to me, that I am saying that, cause we too did that….. Georges Mother had sent us a beautiful Maria Statue from Bavaria, got rid of it….. Coming out of the Catholic Church we never read the Bible…. When we did, at times the words just jumped out t us…. We asked a lot of questions back then…. OK Kathi don't get upset… nice post….Peace and Love Irene
Shimmer,
Ok, thanks for your honest reply.Now, since you are in a window of time where you are feeling that love…would you consider asking God to show you if His Son was created out of nothing or was He begotten from within Him before creation and see if He would be so gracious to show you this.
In my opinion, God wants to reveal that truth. He really wants us to know if His Son is a mere created Son or a Son that is eternal. The Father wants us to have the mind of Christ and not be wondering about this. Trust Him and ask Him to reveal this to you in a way that you know that you know, like when He would give you specific verses to read when you would not have known them otherwise. Ask Him if Jesus is His literal begotten Son…of the same eternal nature as He is and thus eternal also, or if the Son was created out of nothing before the creation of the world or is He a Son in another way.
To hear Him on this you need to be willing to die to your previous understandings, although it doesn't seem like you have any understanding beyond that He is the Christ, the Son of God and also called God the Son, and allow Him to reveal a fresh truth to you.
Then, let me know what He says to you. No rush, it may take some time.
looks like I am not the only one who believes Jesus had a beginning….and how did God bring forth His Son when there was nothing there present, except God……
Posted: Aug. 31 2011,09:42 EDIT QUOTE
There are several articles on this subject, however most are bias to the trinity doctrine, so they will not say that Jesus was created….Colossians 1:15 – Did Jesus Have a Beginning
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. — Colossians 1:15
One claims that Colossians 1:15-20 makes no sense except in the context that there is a trinity. And, yet, in order to get the trinity doctrine into the the verses, one has use the great human spirit of imagination, assumptions based on what is imagined, add those assumptions to, and read those assumptions into, the passage being discussed.
We should note first that “God” is used unipersonally in the phrase “image of the invisible God.” The word “God” is referring, not to three persons, but to one person. The context shows that the word “God” is being used to denote the one person, “God, the Father of our Lord Jesus.” (Colossians 1:13) Again, Colossians 3:1, we read that Jesus sits at the right hand of “God”, and it should be apparent that “God” is there unipersonal, not tripersonal. “God” refers to one person, the God and Father of Jesus. (Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3) All through the New Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as the one person: the God and Father of Jesus. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is never, not even once, ever presented as more than one person.
So what the trinitarian has to do is use his spirit of human imagination so as to imagine that “God” refers to the assumed first person of the trinitarian assumptions. Then they have further use his spirit of human imagination to image that “He,” which refers to Jesus, means the imagined second person of the trinitarian assumptions. And thus, in this manner the trinitarian assumptions are added to, and read into, what Paul wrote. In reality, the phrase “image of God” shows that Jesus is not the
The scriptures are quite plain on the fact that Jesus came into existence through a creative act of God. This can be clearly seen from Colossians 1:15, in speaking of Jesus: “who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”.
Two things in this verse show that Jesus had a beginning and that he was created.
First, its structure shows that he came into living existence by a creative act. The rule of Greek grammar on the partitive genitive proves this, because the construction, “firstborn of every creature [or all creation]“, is in Greek grammar called the partitive genitive, that is, the genitive which contains as a part of its contents the thing or things mentioned in the noun that governs the genitive. The expression, “the firstborn of every creature,” being in the Greek a partitive genitive, it includes as a part of itself the thing implied in the noun that governs it, that being “firstborn.” Therefore, it implies that the firstborn one is a part of creation and, accordingly, was created and thus had a beginning.
Additionally, Jesus’ being called “firstborn” of every creature, or of all creation, proves that he came into existence by a creative act, even as those who are the afterborn of creation came into existence by a creative act. Being born of God as the first of the creation spoken of, he is not Yahweh the Almighty who gave this birth to him.
Some claim that his scripture teaches that Christ is over all creation; the ruler of all creation, and thus that Jesus is apart from the class of created beings.
The word “firstborn” is always used in either of two settings: as being the firstborn offspring of a father (as in Genesis 25:13), or as being part of the group being spoken of. Nevertheless even when used as the firstborn offspring of a father, it is still the group of children that the offspring of the father that the firstborn is a member of. For instance, In Exodus 11:5 we find: “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of the group that would make up Pharaoh’s offspring. Still, since Colossians 1:15 is definitely not saying that Jesus is the offspring of creation, making the creation the father, the other alternative is that Jesus is definitely included as part of the creation of which he is firstborn. In no case does “firstborn” mean that the firstborn did not have a beginning, or that the firstborn is not included in the group of which he is firstborn.
See our studies:
Psalm 89:27 – Yahweh’s Firstborn King for study on Psalm 89:27.
Genesis 34:7 – The firstborn nation, Israel
Jeremiah 31:9 – Ephraim as Yahweh’s firstborn
Someone objects that when prototokos (the Greek word translated firstborn in Colossians 1:15) is one of the class referred to, the class is plural , as in Colossians 1:18 and Romans 8:29.
The Greek singular of creation is often used by Paul and others to denote the collective whole of creation. See: Mark 10:6; 13:19; Romans 1:20; 8:19,20,21,22; Revelation 3:14.
Another objection that many put forth is: If Paul meant to convey that Christ was the first created being, why did he not use the Greek word protoktistos, which means “first created”?
One could ask a similar question concerning Paul usage of firstborn in Colossians 1:18, such as why didn’t he say “first raised” from the dead, rather than “firstborn” from the dead?
There is no record that the word protokistos was in common use in Paul’s day. If the word protokistos (which nowhere appears in the Bible) had been used, then the thought would have been shifted from the rights of the one who is firstborn to his being the first created. Paul was not emphasizing that Jesus was the first created, but rather that Jesus held the rights of heirship as the firstborn of all creation. This in no way negates the fact that the firstborn one is included in the group spoken of; it certainly does not provide any reason to change its meaning in this case from the meaning shown in its usage throughout the scriptures.
Nevertheless, Clement uses the terms prototokos and protokistos almost interchangeably. He refers to Christ the “first created” and later the “firstborn”. In his work Stromata Clement calls Christ “first-created” [TON PROTOKTISTON]. He also composes the line [referring to Proverbs 8:22]: TES SOPHIAS TES PROTOKTISTOU TO THEO. [“Wisdom that was the first created of God.”] “Clement repeatedly identifies the Word [John 1:1] with the Wisdom of God [Proverbs 8:22], and yet he refers to Wisdom as the first-created; while in one passage he attached the epithet ‘first-created,’ and in another ‘first-begotten,’ to the Word. At a later date a sharp distinction was drawn between ‘first-created’ and ‘first-born’ or ‘first-begotten,’ but no such distinction was drawn in the time of Clement, who with the Septuagint rendering of a passage in Proverbs [8:22] before him could have had no misgiving as to the use of these terms. Clement makes a sharp distinction between the Son and the Word who was begotten or created before the rest of creation and the alone Unbegotten God and Father.” [Clement of Alexandria, John Patrick (1914)] Thus, we recognize that while this does not mean that these two terms mean exactly the same thing, it does indicate that the idea of “first created” (protokistos) is included in the word “firstborn” (prototokos).
Additionally, we find this in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue With Trypho: “But this Offspring which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him; even as the Scripture [Proverbs 8:22-31] by Solomon has made clear that he whom Solomon calls Wisdom, was begotten AS A Beginning BEFORE all His creatures and as Offspring of God … We [Christians] know [Chr
ist] to be the first-begotten of God, and to be before all creatures. … He is the Son of God and since we call him the Son, we have understood that he proceeded before all creatures from the Father by His power and will.” Thus Willis B. Shotwell remarks: “The language here is such that it cannot be argued that Justin considered the Logos to be eternal
. The most that can be said about the Logos is that he was created before anything else.” (The Biblical Exegesis of Justin Martyr, London 1965)
–
*Evidently Shotwell is using the term “eternal” here to mean an eternal past.It is claimed that “God begets God” and thus if Jesus is Son of God, that this makes him God Almighty himself. This would limit God’s ability to produce a Son who is not the Supreme Being, based on the limited procreative powers that God placed upon the material creation. (Genesis 1:11,12,21,25) Of course, God is not so limited, and he can bring forth a Son who is not the Supreme Spirit Being that he himself is. Believing that if God has begotten a son, that the son must be equal in every way to the Father who begot him, the trinitarian and many others reason that the Son must also be Supreme Being. And since the scriptures declare only one Supreme Being, they come up with the idea of more than one person in the one Omniscient Supreme Being. Nevertheless, God did not use any kind of reproductive powers to bring forth his Son, as though he were limited like humans and other animals in this respect, so that his Son would, in effect, have to be himself. Yahweh set the limits of reproduction on the animate material creation, not upon himself.
The evidence suggests that the translation is correct in thought where it has Jesus in his prehuman existence stating: “The Lord (Yahweh) created (qanah) me at the beginning of his work (derek), the first of his acts of long ago. Ages (olam) ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.” (Proverbs 8:22, New Revised Standard Version) Thus Jesus had a beginning, and does not have to be God who begot him in order to be the Son of the God who begot, or brought him forth in creation.
See:
Proverbs 8:22,23 Proof that Jesus Existed in an Eternal Past?God is not so limited as man is, nor did God bring forth a son in the same way that man does. Of course, Jesus, in his prehuman and posthuman existence, is of the same substance as God, that is “spirit”. While in the days of his flesh, Jesus was not a spirit being — he was human, a little lower than the angels, nothing more, nothing less. (Hebrews 2:9; 5:7) Jesus gave up as an offering his being — his soul [Hebrew, nephesh, Greek, psyche], represented in his blood (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:11; Deuteronomy 12:23) — as a human, which offering includes the human body that God had prepared for just such an offering for sin. — Isaiah 53:10,12; Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25,34; Luke 22:19,20; John 6:51-56; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 11:25-27; 15:21,22; Romans 5:15-19; Colossians 1:14,22; Hebrews 9:7,12,14,26,28; 10:5-12.
Revelation 3:14
Regarding Revelation 3:14 where Jesus is called “the beginning of the creation of God: He is not called the “beginner” of the creation of God. This would not only be a mistranslation, but would contradict the second part of the expression: “of the creation of God”. If the creative act is God, then God must have at least begun it alone; therefore the Son of God did not begin it. Revelation 3:14 thus proves that God started the creative work by bringing the Logos, God’s firstborn, into existence. This would mean, then, that the Logos, as a created being, is a part of creation and, therefore, was both created and hence had a beginning.
Hebrews 1:6
An additional proof is found in Hebrews 1:6, where Jesus is called Yahweh’s firstborn. Thus these scriptures do prove that God created Jesus. Therefore Jesus is the firstborn of God, the later born ones of God including angels (Job 38:7), Adam and Eve (Luke 3:38) and God’s Gospel-Age children (John 1:12; 3:3,5).
John 3:16
In John 3:16 we find further proof of this. There Jesus is called “the only begotten Son.” The fact that he was begotten proves that Jesus was a creation of Yahweh. The further fact that he is called the only begotten “Son” proves the same thing, for the word “son” implies either a direct or an indirect act of creation. As applied to Jesus it would be a direct creative act of Yahweh — one which Yahweh alone exercised, without the assistance of any other agency. Seeing that Yahweh created everything else indirectly, that is, through the Word (John 1:3), it would therefore be proper to call Jesus the “only begotten.”
John 1:18
This is further corroborated by John 1:18: “No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.” Some of the best manuscripts call Jesus here “the only begotten God (Mighty One)” instead of “the only begotten Son.” Whichever version we accept makes little difference in the sense, because the only begotten Son is an only begotten God, a mighty one, mightier than all other gods, the Father excepted, and because an only begotten God (mighty one) would be the only begotten Son of the only true Supreme, the Father. (John 17:3) In either case the passage shows Jesus’ pre-human creation by Yahweh and proves that Jesus had a beginning. The same can be said of John 1:14 and 1 John 4:9, for to be begotten implies a beginning and a coming into existence.
Ezekiel 21:30 equates birth as a form of creation.
Cause it to return into its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your birth, will I judge you.
Isaiah 43 equates “being formed” with creation:
Isaiah 43:1 But now thus says Yahweh who created you, Jacob, and he who formed you, Israel: Don’t be afraid, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name, you are mine.
Isaiah 43:7 everyone [in reference to the peoples of Israel to be regathered] who is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.
Isaiah 43:22 – the people which I formed for myself, that they might set forth my praise.Also notice:
Isaiah 46:3 – Listen to me, house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that have been borne [by me] from their birth, that have been carried from the womb;
Isaiah 49:1 – Listen, isles, to me; and listen, you peoples, from far: Yahweh has called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother has he made mention of my name:
Additionally, we find that Yahweh speaks of Israel as his firstborn:
Exodus 4:22 – You shall tell Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, Israel is my son, my firstborn. See also Deuteronomy 14:1; Jeremiah 31:9; Hosea 11: 1;
Yahweh “made” and formed Jacob (Israel) from the womb.
Isaiah 44:2 – Thus says Yahweh who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you: Don’t be afraid, Jacob my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:21 – Remember these things, Jacob, and Israel; for you are my servant: I have formed you; you are my servant: Israel, you shall not be forgotten by me.
Isaiah 43:1,6,7 – But now thus says Yahweh who created you, Jacob, and he who formed you, Israel: Don’t be afraid, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name, you are mine…. I will tell the north, Give up; and to the south, Don’t keep back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth; 7 everyone who is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.
Deuteronomy 32:6 – Do you thus requite Yahweh, Foolish people and unwise? Isn’t he your father who has bought you? He has made you, and established you.
Commonly, however, in NT scriptures, the words creation and created are limited in application either to the intelligent creation (which includes the angels as well as humans, powe
rs, principalties in heaven or earth — Colossians 1:15); things created in heaven and earth (Revelation 5:13; 10:16), or more often, it is limited in application by context to the world of mankind, “the creation” having been subjected to vanity/futility. — Mark 10:6; 13:19; 16:15; Romans 8:19-22; Colossians 1:23; Hebrews 9:11; 2 Peter 3:4.When Jesus said to “preach the gospel to the whole creation”, was he not referring to the mankind as a creation, but yet also as the offspring of Adam? Paul uses the word “creation” in a similar way in Romans 8:19-22. In Colossians 1:15, however, the word “creation” appears to be applying to all the intelligent creation, both in heaven and earth. The rule of Greek grammar on the partitive genitive proves that Jesus is being here referred to as the firstborn creature, because the construction, “firstborn of every creature [or all creation]“, is in Greek grammar called the partitive genitive, that is, the genitive which contains as a part of its contents the thing or things mentioned in the noun that governs the genitive. The expression, “the firstborn of every creature,” being in the Greek partitive genitive, includes as a part of itself the thing given in the noun that governs it, that being “firstborn.” Therefore, it shows that the firstborn one is a part of the creation spoken of and, accordingly, was created.
The expression “firstborn of all creation” is further shown to include Jesus as a creature as can be seen from similar usage in Revelation 1: 5: “firstborn of the dead”. Jesus was indeed dead, a member of the group of which he was the firstborn, and was the first to be fully made alive from the dead, never to die again. That Jesus was actually a member of those dead can be seen a few verses further, for Jesus says: “I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.” (Revelation 1: 18) Later on, Jesus is referred to as the one “who was dead, and has come to life”. (Revelation 2:8) Further, Paul tell us that “Christ died, rose, and lived again.” (Romans 14:9) Jesus is not being spoken of as simply a ruler over the dead. Certainly, however, as being the first to actually be made alive from the dead, he possesses the right of firstborn in that sense also, thus we read: “Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.” (Romans 14:9) Thus Colossians 1:18 tells us: “He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” The usuage of “firstborn”, however, both in Revelation 1:5 as well as Colossians 1: 15, does not mean that the one spoken of as firstborn is not a member of the group of which he the firstborn.
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Profile PMKathi,
Over an hour ago I did that.
Still nothing.
God reveals what he will when he will and to who he will.
If the answer ever comes to me, in Gods time, I will let you know, ok.
Take care untill then, if then comes…
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 03 2011,16:13) Shimmer,
Ok, thanks for your honest reply.Now, since you are in a window of time where you are feeling that love…would you consider asking God to show you if His Son was created out of nothing or was He begotten from within Him before creation and see if He would be so gracious to show you this.
In my opinion, God wants to reveal that truth. He really wants us to know if His Son is a mere created Son or a Son that is eternal. The Father wants us to have the mind of Christ and not be wondering about this. Trust Him and ask Him to reveal this to you in a way that you know that you know, like when He would give you specific verses to read when you would not have known them otherwise. Ask Him if Jesus is His literal begotten Son…of the same eternal nature as He is and thus eternal also, or if the Son was created out of nothing before the creation of the world or is He a Son in another way.
To hear Him on this you need to be willing to die to your previous understandings, although it doesn't seem like you have any understanding beyond that He is the Christ, the Son of God and also called God the Son, and allow Him to reveal a fresh truth to you.
Then, let me know what He says to you. No rush, it may take some time.
Kathiall those question have been answered by the word of God ,but it seems you can not believe them so you think shimmer can change the scriptures to satisfy your doctrine ?? I do not think so.
Pierre
Shimmer,
God knows the answer to the question, you can be assured of that. In His time He will tell you if you seek to know and listen with an open heart. For me it gradually came within a few days and then more and more for a month for a significant part. After that, more and more understanding has come even 18 years later.Don't be discouraged.
Kathi
Kathi, your not so bad.
Theres a side of you I hate, and a side I love.
Love is always stronger.But we cant let down our gaurd!!
Looking forward to the next battle with you.Have a nice night Kathi.
Kathi, that probably sounded really bad, I meant it more about love. But, you know what I mean.
If I ever do get those answers, Ill let you know.
Thanks for sharing with me.
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 31 2011,09:10) Jesus is not YHWH no matter which way you twist that.
Who is YHWH in Zechariah 14?
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