Ancient Syriac Documents

Participant

And further LU.

Actually truth be told, Jesus said he lives in his people. And what you do to them you do to him. Even to one of them. So when my friend fed me, warmed me, visited me, etc, he was in fact doing it to Jesus, according to the scripture, and he will be saved. And thats what I believe. And it was evident in the way he lived his life, and the changes he made.

You can spend a lifetimes searching the scriptures – thinking that in them you will have eternal life, and it can take one person a lifetime of selflessness, and a second to decide on the name of Jesus, and be saved. And by my friend hearing me talk to others about my belief, he accepted me, he accepted my belief, therefore he accepted Jesus.

Thats how I see it now. The simplicity that is in Christ.
Thanks for the conversation, goodbye.

August 30, 2011 at 1:22 pm#257361

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 30 2011,21:10)

And further LU.

Thats how I see it now. The simplicity that is in Christ.
Thanks for the conversation, goodbye.

shimmer! I agree,and your friend will see Jesus face to face, IMO because He loved all, and love is the great commandment…that Jesus gave us…to love God will all of your Heart and your neighbor as yourself… He certainly fulfilled the second great commandment…
No man should judge anyone, even when they are on drugs… We don't know what happened to them, and in His case He turned around and did good..good testimony of your friend. Most Churches today believe in the trinity, a man made doctrine and not of God… It was Quintus Septimus Florence Tertullian who first came up with the trinity in the third century, that is why it is a man made doctrine…. that is why some don't go to a Church…they either believe in the trinity or they are so into the Law that they believe you have to keep the Sabbath…. We too used to think so…
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.

May God bless you and keep you, Irene

August 30, 2011 at 2:05 pm#257362

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,13:29)

Quote

Kathi seems to be saying that those who do not view Jesus as she does are going to Hell.

Seems to? Kathi never said those words. Nope.

I do believe in scriptures though and that is what convicts, not me. If anyone is convicted by the scriptures that I post, then it is the scriptures that convict, not me.

Christians all over the world believe in the deity of Christ and the compound unity of God as a central necessary belief, not just me. This certainly is not just MY doctrine that I have introduced (Irene). I merely spread the doctrine of Christ that has been a part of the church since the beginning. Read the early church father's writings and the writings on this thread to know that I am not the founder of the doctrine of the deity of Christ and the unity of God.

Bump for Shimmer. You misrepresent what I said.

Read what scriptures say.

Luke 12:8“And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; 9but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God

No one goes to heaven by their own righteousness. It is the righteousness of Jesus that we need to trust in, not our own. Only He can save us, not ourselves.

I don't know the heart of your friend, only Jesus knows if he denied Him.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Do you think that the same Jesus is both created and not created before creation? Seems to me that would lead to two very different Jesus'. You deny one to accept the other. One is deity and the other is not.

August 30, 2011 at 2:16 pm#257363

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….9;st=10

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 29 2011,20:00)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 30 2011,04:05)

Did you realize that Jesus was called Christ the Lord by the angels at the announcement by the angels to the shepherds when He was born?

“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”

He didn't make him YHWH did he? We can both agree on that because you believe he is YHWH and wasn't made YHWH and I believe he is the son, the lord, the christ, and rather than YHWH he is Yahshua (or some other spelling).

So whatever stance you take here, I think you need to revisit what Lord means. Lord is not YHWH. Rather LORD is YHWH and clearly Jesus is Lord and not LORD.

1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Also the above scripture and others is what you are attacking with your doctrine. But because we agree with it, we are part of the US that Paul mentions, while you clearly are not by your own admission.

Actually t8,

you said:

Quote

So whatever stance you take here, I think you need to revisit what Lord means. Lord is not YHWH. Rather LORD is YHWH and clearly Jesus is Lord and not LORD.

YHVH is the Lord (Adonai) Jesus is Lord (Adonai)

Look at the Hebrew for Deut 10:17

17“For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords,

Quote

Of course that is a lie.

I said this in another thread:

Quote

Here is a major anti-Jesus is God fallacy…
People often say that the Father is God and there is only one true God and so therefore Jesus is not God.

What people don't understand is that the one true Jehovah God is both God of gods and Lord of lords. Jehovah our God, the name of the compound unity, is made up of two persons. ! Cor 8:6 tells us who those two persons are:
1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

Read about who we are supposed to love with all our heart, soul, strength, and mind:

Luke 10:25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?” 26And He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?” 27And he answered, “YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 28And He said to him, “You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE.”

According to Luke 10:27 it is the Lord our God that we worship. And Deut. 10:17 tells us who is the Lord our God:

Deut 10:17 “For the LORD your God is the God of gods and the Lord of lords, the great, the mighty, and the awesome God who does not show partiality nor take a bribe.

2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery;
3 you shall have no other gods before me.

36“Teacher, which is the great commandment in the Law?” 37And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’ 38“This is the great and foremost commandment. 39“The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’ 40“On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets.”

Mark 12:28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”

29“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.e 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’f 31The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

32“Well said, teacher,” the man replied. “You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Whose Son Is the Christ?

35While Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, he asked, “How is it that the teachers of the law say that the Christ is the son of David? 36David himself, speaking by the Holy Spirit, declared:

“‘The Lord said to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
until I put your enemies
under your feet.”’i
37David himself calls him ‘Lord.’ How then can he be his son?”

The large crowd listened to him with delight.

Isn't that cool how the topic in the above passage is about loving the Lord your God from the first and most important commandment and then it goes on about how Jesus is called Lord by David, and in Deuteronomy we are told who the Lord our God is…the God of gods and the Lord of lords. We are told by Jesus that the Father and Him are ONE, and we are told in a few places that Jesus is the Lord of lords, and we are told that for us there is one God, the Father and ONE LORD, Jesus Christ.

Rev 17:4 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and chosen and faithful

John 10:30″I and the Father are one.”

1 Cor 8:6 yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.

You shouldn't lie t8. You can see what I said by my own admission.

August 30, 2011 at 10:10 pm#257399

Proclaimer

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2011,01:16)

YHVH is the Lord (Adonai) Jesus is Lord (Adonai)

Jesus is not YHWH no matter which way you twist that.

However, in reply to your post, the one who made Jesus Lord is obviously lord over Jesus. That is a no-brainer.

Likewise Joseph was made lord over Egypt by the Pharaoh, so the Pharaoh was lord even over Joseph. To take it further, Joseph's God was even greater than Pharaoh as far as authority goes.

Not hard to understand, you see there are many lords, but for us we see Jesus as the lord of all, (except God himself). No one believes that Jesus is Lord over God, but lord over all creation, yes. And it is explained in scripture that God is supreme and has a heirachy of authority under him starting with Jesus Christ at his right hand.

That is why rejection of Jesus is rejection of God. Because Jesus is the one whom God appointed as Lord. And God is even greater than the one whom he appointed and anointed.

August 31, 2011 at 2:49 am#257416

mikeboll64

Blocked

Bump for Kathi:

Just because the church in Thyatira put up with “that women Jezebel” does not mean the church in Pergamum did, right?

Similarly, just because Jesus and his God are one in purpose does not mean that Jesus created the heavens and earth just because his God did, right? Nor does it mean that Jesus is worthy of God-worship just because his God is.

Kathi, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you believe these scriptures?

August 31, 2011 at 8:30 pm#257446

Participant

Thank you Irene.

August 31, 2011 at 9:51 pm#257450

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 01 2011,07:30)

Thank you Irene.

Your Welcome and peace and Love Irene

September 1, 2011 at 1:49 am#257457

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 30 2011,17:10)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2011,01:16)

YHVH is the Lord (Adonai) Jesus is Lord (Adonai)

Jesus is not YHWH no matter which way you twist that.

However, in reply to your post, the one who made Jesus Lord is obviously lord over Jesus. That is a no-brainer.

Likewise Joseph was made lord over Egypt by the Pharaoh, so the Pharaoh was lord even over Joseph. To take it further, Joseph's God was even greater than Pharaoh as far as authority goes.

That is why rejection of Jesus is rejection of God. Because Jesus is the one whom God appointed as Lord. And God is even greater than the one whom he appointed and anointed.

t8,
You talk about the human nature of Jesus that was made both Lord and Christ. That is clear by the context. No one is arguing with you that the descendant of David needed to be made Christ and Lord because the descendant of David was a man and had a man/God relationship with the Father. The Bible tries to make this clear but those like you jump all over this type of verse and make it about the divine pre-existent Son's role which it isn't.

Look at the passage and see that it talks about the descendant of David as who was made both Christ and Lord.

29“Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30“And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE, 31he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32“This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses. 33“Therefore having been exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured forth this which you both see and hear.

34“For it was not David who ascended into heaven, but he himself says:
‘THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,

35UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET.”’
36“Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”

t8, I know it is mysterious how someone who pre-exists in a heavenly body could empty Himself and come in a human body but that is what happened. He had two different natures and thus two different roles to fulfill. Performing different roles is common to all of us. I hope that you are a father to your children instead of the moderator handing out tiles for their offenses. You are able to take off one 'hat' and put on another. Certainly you aren't the moderator to your wife. So to not understand that the Son of God fulfilled two roles, one as deity and one as man should not be as hard as you seem to make it.

Also, realize that the Son of God is humble at heart and was not the one who was to glorify Himself. Maybe people are so not used to that in this world that they expect for Him to stand up and glorify Himself. Remember the thief on the cross who sneered at Him and then those around the cross, saying:

“You who are going to destroy the temple and build it in three days, save yourself! Come down from the cross, if you are the Son of God!” 41In the same way the chief priests also, along with the scribes and elders, were mocking Him and saying, 42“He saved others; He cannot save Himself. He is the King of Israel; let Him now come down from the cross, and we will believe in Him. 43“HE TRUSTS IN GOD; LET GOD RESCUE Him now, IF HE DELIGHTS IN HIM; for He said, ‘I am the Son of God.’” 44The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.

He said nothing in response to them and did not correct them. He was humble to the end.

What does He get for being humble and not exalting Himself…you, and those like you, who complain that He did not prove to you plainly that He was deity. It seems that you would rather have a proud Lord to make it plain and simple to you and spell it out for you. That is not Him. Find the Jesus who is humble at heart, t8. Look at all the verses in the deity of Christ thread and see that His apostles are realizing the true identity by referring to Him as God, or Lord, etc. Or maybe they were all 'misled' and missed the 'simple' message.

Kathi

September 1, 2011 at 2:05 am#257458

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 30 2011,21:49)

Bump for Kathi:

Just because the church in Thyatira put up with “that women Jezebel” does not mean the church in Pergamum did, right?

Kathi, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you believe these scriptures?

Mike,
Your arguments are continually reflecting that you do not understand that there is more than one person within the compound unity of God. One is the Father and one is the Son.

Within the compound unity of the Most High God Jehovah, was the Father who, through His Spirit, conceived within Mary a body which He then sent His Son to dwell in. The persons within the unity perform different roles at times. Just because the Father sent His Son doesn't mean that the Son sent Himself, or just because the Son died on the cross doesn't mean that the Father died on the cross. However, both took part in creation and both took part in salvation. So, they work together to fulfill their purpose but they take on different roles to do so. That is why there is more than one because the Father couldn't also be His own Son.

Kathi

September 1, 2011 at 2:47 am#257459

mikeboll64

Blocked

Quote

Just because the Father sent His Son doesn't mean that the Son sent Himself

I agree.

Quote

just because the Son died on the cross doesn't mean that the Father died on the cross.

I agree.

Quote

However, both took part in creation and both took part in salvation.

I agree that God created through His Son. I don't know what that really means as far as Jesus “taking part”. I do believe Prov 8 is about Jesus, and that he was the master craftsman at God's side. So I can also 99% agree with this statement.

Quote

So, they work together to fulfill their purpose but they take on different roles to do so.

This is where you lose me. WHOSE purpose is being fulfilled? Does the Father always do what pleases the Son? Or is it the other way around, according to scripture?

Quote

That is why there is more than one because the Father couldn't also be His own Son.

I agree. But Kathi, only ONE of them is God. Paul tells you which one in 1 Cor 8:6, right? Jesus tells you which one in John 17:3, right?

I would truly like you to actually address the post I bumped, Kathi. I think that by DIRECTLY addressing my points, you may see what I'm trying to get you to see.

peace,
mike

September 1, 2011 at 2:50 am#257460

Participant

I answered your post Mike. Think about it for a while and maybe it will sink in.

Kathi

September 1, 2011 at 3:07 am#257461

mikeboll64

Blocked

Kathi, I posted in your new thread about the compound unity of Jesus and his disciples. You are right that being a part of a compound unity with Jesus doesn't mean I died on a cross. Or that all things were created through you. On this part we agree.

So…………….why is it that Jesus being a part of a compound unity with our one true God makes him God too? Can't you see that this is only in your mind? The red flags are all around you, yet you seem to be oblivious to them. Which is why I'm hoping you will DIRECTLY answer this point:

Kathi, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you believe these scriptures? And if so, what do they teach us?

mike

September 1, 2011 at 3:46 am#257462

Participant

Kathi,

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 31 2011,02:05)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,13:29)

Quote

Kathi seems to be saying that those who do not view Jesus as she does are going to Hell.

Seems to? Kathi never said those words. Nope.

I do believe in scriptures though and that is what convicts, not me. If anyone is convicted by the scriptures that I post, then it is the scriptures that convict, not me.

Bump for Shimmer. You misrepresent what I said.

Read what scriptures say.

No one goes to heaven by their own righteousness. It is the righteousness of Jesus that we need to trust in, not our own. Only He can save us, not ourselves.

I don't know the heart of your friend, only Jesus knows if he denied Him.

I dont believe Im still posting here, after telling a few people I wont be. But I have to answer this.

You said I misrepresented you. However I do not believe I did.

Example, in your discussion with Irene, you said this…

Quote

You deny that Jesus was the firstborn, you believe that He was the first-created. You deny that He is the literal Son of God but a created son. To you He is not the Lord of all…the Lord of glory, the Lord of lords but that He is a created lord.

This is what Jesus says about those who deny the truth about Him.

Matt 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven…

….Look what happens to the 'unbelieving:'

“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

It seems you are calling Irene an unbeliever. And others here unbelievers, as you did quite a few pages back in this thread.

There were other posts in the past few weeks, but I have no idea where they are.

If it is so essential to believe this and that as you do… then why is it that Jesus said so many times the important thing is faith?

Example in Hebrews 11:

[1] Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

[2] For by it the men of old received divine approval.
[3] By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear.
[4] By faith Abel offered to God a more acceptable sacrifice than Cain, through which he received approval as righteous, God bearing witness by accepting his gifts; he died, but through his faith he is still speaking.

[5] By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death; and he was not found, because God had taken him. Now before he was taken he was attested as having pleased God.
[6] And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.
[7] By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, took heed and constructed an ark for the saving of his household; by this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness which comes by faith.
[8] By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go.

[9] By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
[10] For he looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
[11] By faith Sarah herself received power to conceive, even when she was past the age, since she considered him faithful who had promised.
[12] Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born descendants as many as the stars of heaven and as the innumerable grains of sand by the seashore.
[13] These all died in faith, not having received what was promised, but having seen it and greeted it from afar, and having acknowledged that they were strangers and exiles on the earth.

[14] For people who speak thus make it clear that they are seeking a homeland.
[15] If they had been thinking of that land from which they had gone out, they would have had opportunity to return.
[16] But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.
[17] By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was ready to offer up his only son,
[18] of whom it was said, “Through Isaac shall your descendants be named.”
[19] He considered that God was able to raise men even from the dead; hence, figuratively speaking, he did receive him back.

[20] By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau.
[21] By faith Jacob, when dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, bowing in worship over the head of his staff.
[22] By faith Joseph, at the end of his life, made mention of the exodus of the Israelites and gave directions concerning his burial.
[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid for three months by his parents, because they saw that the child was beautiful; and they were not afraid of the king's edict.

[24] By faith Moses, when he was grown up, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter,
[25] choosing rather to share ill-treatment with the people of God than to enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin.
[26] He considered abuse suffered for the Christ greater wealth than the treasures of Egypt, for he looked to the reward.
[27] By faith he left Egypt, not being afraid of the anger of the king; for he endured as seeing him who is invisible.
[28] By faith he kept the Passover and sprinkled the blood, so that the Destroyer of the first-born might not tou
ch them.
[29] By faith the people crossed the Red Sea as if on dry land; but the Egyptians, when they attempted to do the same, were drowned.

[30] By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days.
[31] By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given friendly welcome to the spies.
[32] And what more shall I say? For time would fail me to tell of Gideon, Barak, Samson, Jephthah, of David and Samuel and the prophets —

[33] who through faith conquered kingdoms, enforced justice, received promises, stopped the mouths of lions,
[34] quenched raging fire, escaped the edge of the sword, won strength out of weakness, became mighty in war, put foreign armies to flight.
[35] Women received their dead by resurrection. Some were tortured, refusing to accept release, that they might rise again to a better life.
[36] Others suffered mocking and scourging, and even chains and imprisonment.
[37] They were stoned, they were sawn in two, they were killed with the sword; they went about in skins of sheep and goats, destitute, afflicted, ill-treated —
[38] of whom the world was not worthy — wandering over deserts and mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
[39] And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised,
[40] since God had foreseen something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

So who are you to try and take away someones faith, when they believe?

Are we not supposed to be like children who are simple innocent and simply believe? Are we not to rely on the Father and the Son and trust them that we are being led the right way?

And if we are not being led the right way then to listen to the inner voice of God within that tells us something is wrong? Or the inner voice of God that leads us to the Scriptures and shows us what we do not know?

Quote James:
You do not have because you do not ask.

Sorry but I ask. I always have. And I have faith. I always have. And no-one will ever take that from me. No matter how hard they may try!

September 1, 2011 at 4:39 am#257468

Participant

Shimmer,
Many people have faith in things that are not true. People have faith in allah, buddah, etc.

Many people have faith in a creature, other people put their faith in a creator.
Some people have a creature as their god.
Some people have a Creator as their God.

No one can take away anyone's faith but if you have faith in the wrong thing, that faith doesn't get you to the right thing. All roads do not lead to heaven. I could just let those who teach others that Jesus was created out of nothing alone, but too many of the Christians do that. Maybe that is because they are called to other things or maybe they don't want to take the time. I am taking the time, a lot of it, to help point to truth, not to destroy true faith but to lead others away from faith that cannot save.

What you hear when you ask, needs to be tested according to scriptures…all of them. There are a lot of voices out there.

You seem to be trying to teach that our righteousness gets us to heaven and that is dangerous teaching. I can enable that belief like Irene did, or I can lead you to a clear scripture that disables that false belief. Who is the one that cares about you spiritually, the enabler of a false belief so that you can feel all warm and fuzzy, or one that challenges your belief with clear scripture in order to show you what God has to say about it.

September 1, 2011 at 4:48 am#257469

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 31 2011,22:07)

Kathi, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22) And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God. (Mark 5:7) Do you believe these scriptures? And if so, what do they teach us?

mike

Mike,
Jehovah is the most High what…God AND Lord..Father AND Son.

Jesus is the Son of the Father. THEY are both part of the unity of the Most High. Jesus is the Son part within the Most High, the Father is the Father part within the Most High…AND each of them are the Most High in their respective positions.

Kathi

September 1, 2011 at 4:07 pm#257484

Participant

Kathi! Making remarks about others believes is uncalled for….. I know you meant me about believing God is a creator….
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good.

Ecc 12:1 ¶ Remember now thy Creator in the days of thy youth, while the evil days come not, nor the years draw nigh, when thou shalt say, I have no pleasure in them;

Isa 40:28 Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, [that] the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? [there is] no searching of his understanding.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

1Pe 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls [to him] in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

God is called the CREATOR…..

Kathi, who is your creator? You created a false doctrine…. It is not according to Scriptures…In fact it is against Scriptures, because Jehovah is the most High name only….
My God is the maker of Haeven and Earth, my God created us, He is the Father of Jesus…. That is my God not a compound unity of Jesus and His Father…. Jesus said Himself that His Father is greater then I….I praise God on High through our Mediator Jesus Christ…

Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

His name ALONE…..

Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.

PRAISE HIS NAME, and not THEIR names…

Psa 97:9 For thou, LORD, [art] high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.

This LORD is Jehovah and not Yushua or The Word of God, Jesus….. remember that LORD stands for Jehovah God in the Old Testament….???
The Most High God is above all…..

There is only One Father of all….you should know the Scripture in Ephesian….

Jesus is not the God on High, that is your doctrine and not according to Scriptures…..

September 1, 2011 at 4:35 pm#257485

Participant

Colossians 1:15 – Did Jesus Have a Beginning

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. — Colossians 1:15

One claims that Colossians 1:15-20 makes no sense except in the context that there is a trinity. And, yet, in order to get the trinity doctrine into the the verses, one has use the great human spirit of imagination, assumptions based on what is imagined, add those assumptions to, and read those assumptions into, the passage being discussed.

We should note first that “God” is used unipersonally in the phrase “image of the invisible God.” The word “God” is referring, not to three persons, but to one person. The context shows that the word “God” is being used to denote the one person, “God, the Father of our Lord Jesus.” (Colossians 1:13) Again, Colossians 3:1, we read that Jesus sits at the right hand of “God”, and it should be apparent that “God” is there unipersonal, not tripersonal. “God” refers to one person, the God and Father of Jesus. (Ephesians 1:3; 1 Peter 1:3) All through the New Testament, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always presented as the one person: the God and Father of Jesus. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is never, not even once, ever presented as more than one person.

So what the trinitarian has to do is use his spirit of human imagination so as to imagine that “God” refers to the assumed first person of the trinitarian assumptions. Then they have further use his spirit of human imagination to image that “He,” which refers to Jesus, means the imagined second person of the trinitarian assumptions. And thus, in this manner the trinitarian assumptions are added to, and read into, what Paul wrote. In reality, the phrase “image of God” shows that Jesus is not the

The scriptures are quite plain on the fact that Jesus came into existence through a creative act of God. This can be clearly seen from Colossians 1:15, in speaking of Jesus: “who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation”.

Two things in this verse show that Jesus had a beginning and that he was created.

First, its structure shows that he came into living existence by a creative act. The rule of Greek grammar on the partitive genitive proves this, because the construction, “firstborn of every creature [or all creation]“, is in Greek grammar called the partitive genitive, that is, the genitive which contains as a part of its contents the thing or things mentioned in the noun that governs the genitive. The expression, “the firstborn of every creature,” being in the Greek a partitive genitive, it includes as a part of itself the thing implied in the noun that governs it, that being “firstborn.” Therefore, it implies that the firstborn one is a part of creation and, accordingly, was created and thus had a beginning.

Additionally, Jesus’ being called “firstborn” of every creature, or of all creation, proves that he came into existence by a creative act, even as those who are the afterborn of creation came into existence by a creative act. Being born of God as the first of the creation spoken of, he is not Yahweh the Almighty who gave this birth to him.

Some claim that his scripture teaches that Christ is over all creation; the ruler of all creation, and thus that Jesus is apart from the class of created beings.

The word “firstborn” is always used in either of two settings: as being the firstborn offspring of a father (as in Genesis 25:13), or as being part of the group being spoken of. Nevertheless even when used as the firstborn offspring of a father, it is still the group of children that the offspring of the father that the firstborn is a member of. For instance, In Exodus 11:5 we find: “the firstborn of Pharaoh” is one of the group that would make up Pharaoh’s offspring. Still, since Colossians 1:15 is definitely not saying that Jesus is the offspring of creation, making the creation the father, the other alternative is that Jesus is definitely included as part of the creation of which he is firstborn. In no case does “firstborn” mean that the firstborn did not have a beginning, or that the firstborn is not included in the group of which he is firstborn.

See our studies:

Psalm 89:27 – Yahweh’s Firstborn King for study on Psalm 89:27.

Genesis 34:7 – The firstborn nation, Israel

Jeremiah 31:9 – Ephraim as Yahweh’s firstborn

Someone objects that when prototokos (the Greek word translated firstborn in Colossians 1:15) is one of the class referred to, the class is plural , as in Colossians 1:18 and Romans 8:29.

The Greek singular of creation is often used by Paul and others to denote the collective whole of creation. See: Mark 10:6; 13:19; Romans 1:20; 8:19,20,21,22; Revelation 3:14.

Another objection that many put forth is: If Paul meant to convey that Christ was the first created being, why did he not use the Greek word protoktistos, which means “first created”?

One could ask a similar question concerning Paul usage of firstborn in Colossians 1:18, such as why didn’t he say “first raised” from the dead, rather than “firstborn” from the dead?

There is no record that the word protokistos was in common use in Paul’s day. If the word protokistos (which nowhere appears in the Bible) had been used, then the thought would have been shifted from the rights of the one who is firstborn to his being the first created. Paul was not emphasizing that Jesus was the first created, but rather that Jesus held the rights of heirship as the firstborn of all creation. This in no way negates the fact that the firstborn one is included in the group spoken of; it certainly does not provide any reason to change its meaning in this case from the meaning shown in its usage throughout the scriptures.

Nevertheless, Clement uses the terms prototokos and protokistos almost interchangeably. He refers to Christ the “first created” and later the “firstborn”. In his work Stromata Clement calls Christ “first-created” [TON PROTOKTISTON]. He also composes the line [referring to Proverbs 8:22]: TES SOPHIAS TES PROTOKTISTOU TO THEO. [“Wisdom that was the first created of God.”] “Clement repeatedly identifies the Word [John 1:1] with the Wisdom of God [Proverbs 8:22], and yet he refers to Wisdom as the first-created; while in one passage he attached the epithet ‘first-created,’ and in another ‘first-begotten,’ to the Word. At a later date a sharp distinction was drawn between ‘first-created’ and ‘first-born’ or ‘first-begotten,’ but no such distinction was drawn in the time of Clement, who with the Septuagint rendering of a passage in Proverbs [8:22] before him could have had no misgiving as to the use of these terms. Clement makes a sharp distinction between the Son and the Word who was begotten or created before the rest of creation and the alone Unbegotten God and Father.” [Clement of Alexandria, John Patrick (1914)] Thus, we recognize that while this does not mean that these two terms mean exactly the same thing, it does indicate that the idea of “first created” (protokistos) is included in the word “firstborn” (prototokos).

Additionally, we find this in Justin Martyr’s Dialogue With Trypho: “But this Offspring which was truly brought forth from the Father, was with the Father before all the creatures, and the Father communed with him; even as the Scripture [Proverbs 8:22-31] by Solomon has made clear that he whom Solomon calls Wisdom, was begotten AS A Beginning BEFORE all His creatures and as Offspring of God … We [Christians] know [Christ] to be the first-begotten of God, and to be before all creatures. … He is the Son of God and since we call him the Son, we have understood that he proceeded before all creatures from the Father by His power and will.” Thus Willis B. Shotwell remarks: “The language here is such that it cannot be argued that Justin considered the Logos to be eter
nal
. The most that can be said about the Logos is that he was created before anything else.” (The Biblical Exegesis of Justin Martyr, London 1965)
–
*Evidently Shotwell is using the term “eternal” here to mean an eternal past.

It is claimed that “God begets God” and thus if Jesus is Son of God, that this makes him God Almighty himself. This would limit God’s ability to produce a Son who is not the Supreme Being, based on the limited procreative powers that God placed upon the material creation. (Genesis 1:11,12,21,25) Of course, God is not so limited, and he can bring forth a Son who is not the Supreme Spirit Being that he himself is. Believing that if God has begotten a son, that the son must be equal in every way to the Father who begot him, the trinitarian and many others reason that the Son must also be Supreme Being. And since the scriptures declare only one Supreme Being, they come up with the idea of more than one person in the one Omniscient Supreme Being. Nevertheless, God did not use any kind of reproductive powers to bring forth his Son, as though he were limited like humans and other animals in this respect, so that his Son would, in effect, have to be himself. Yahweh set the limits of reproduction on the animate material creation, not upon himself.

The evidence suggests that the translation is correct in thought where it has Jesus in his prehuman existence stating: “The Lord (Yahweh) created (qanah) me at the beginning of his work (derek), the first of his acts of long ago. Ages (olam) ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.” (Proverbs 8:22, New Revised Standard Version) Thus Jesus had a beginning, and does not have to be God who begot him in order to be the Son of the God who begot, or brought him forth in creation.
See:
Proverbs 8:22,23 Proof that Jesus Existed in an Eternal Past?

God is not so limited as man is, nor did God bring forth a son in the same way that man does. Of course, Jesus, in his prehuman and posthuman existence, is of the same substance as God, that is “spirit”. While in the days of his flesh, Jesus was not a spirit being — he was human, a little lower than the angels, nothing more, nothing less. (Hebrews 2:9; 5:7) Jesus gave up as an offering his being — his soul [Hebrew, nephesh, Greek, psyche], represented in his blood (Genesis 9:4; Leviticus 17:11; Deuteronomy 12:23) — as a human, which offering includes the human body that God had prepared for just such an offering for sin. — Isaiah 53:10,12; Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-25,34; Luke 22:19,20; John 6:51-56; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 11:25-27; 15:21,22; Romans 5:15-19; Colossians 1:14,22; Hebrews 9:7,12,14,26,28; 10:5-12.

Revelation 3:14

Regarding Revelation 3:14 where Jesus is called “the beginning of the creation of God: He is not called the “beginner” of the creation of God. This would not only be a mistranslation, but would contradict the second part of the expression: “of the creation of God”. If the creative act is God, then God must have at least begun it alone; therefore the Son of God did not begin it. Revelation 3:14 thus proves that God started the creative work by bringing the Logos, God’s firstborn, into existence. This would mean, then, that the Logos, as a created being, is a part of creation and, therefore, was both created and hence had a beginning.

Hebrews 1:6

An additional proof is found in Hebrews 1:6, where Jesus is called Yahweh’s firstborn. Thus these scriptures do prove that God created Jesus. Therefore Jesus is the firstborn of God, the later born ones of God including angels (Job 38:7), Adam and Eve (Luke 3:38) and God’s Gospel-Age children (John 1:12; 3:3,5).

John 3:16

In John 3:16 we find further proof of this. There Jesus is called “the only begotten Son.” The fact that he was begotten proves that Jesus was a creation of Yahweh. The further fact that he is called the only begotten “Son” proves the same thing, for the word “son” implies either a direct or an indirect act of creation. As applied to Jesus it would be a direct creative act of Yahweh — one which Yahweh alone exercised, without the assistance of any other agency. Seeing that Yahweh created everything else indirectly, that is, through the Word (John 1:3), it would therefore be proper to call Jesus the “only begotten.”

John 1:18

This is further corroborated by John 1:18: “No man has seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has declared him.” Some of the best manuscripts call Jesus here “the only begotten God (Mighty One)” instead of “the only begotten Son.” Whichever version we accept makes little difference in the sense, because the only begotten Son is an only begotten God, a mighty one, mightier than all other gods, the Father excepted, and because an only begotten God (mighty one) would be the only begotten Son of the only true Supreme, the Father. (John 17:3) In either case the passage shows Jesus’ pre-human creation by Yahweh and proves that Jesus had a beginning. The same can be said of John 1:14 and 1 John 4:9, for to be begotten implies a beginning and a coming into existence.

Ezekiel 21:30 equates birth as a form of creation.

Cause it to return into its sheath. In the place where you were created, in the land of your birth, will I judge you.

Isaiah 43 equates “being formed” with creation:

Isaiah 43:1 But now thus says Yahweh who created you, Jacob, and he who formed you, Israel: Don’t be afraid, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name, you are mine.
Isaiah 43:7 everyone [in reference to the peoples of Israel to be regathered] who is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.
Isaiah 43:22 – the people which I formed for myself, that they might set forth my praise.

Also notice:

Isaiah 46:3 – Listen to me, house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, that have been borne [by me] from their birth, that have been carried from the womb;

Isaiah 49:1 – Listen, isles, to me; and listen, you peoples, from far: Yahweh has called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother has he made mention of my name:

Additionally, we find that Yahweh speaks of Israel as his firstborn:

Exodus 4:22 – You shall tell Pharaoh, ‘Thus says Yahweh, Israel is my son, my firstborn. See also Deuteronomy 14:1; Jeremiah 31:9; Hosea 11: 1;

Yahweh “made” and formed Jacob (Israel) from the womb.

Isaiah 44:2 – Thus says Yahweh who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you: Don’t be afraid, Jacob my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.

Isaiah 44:21 – Remember these things, Jacob, and Israel; for you are my servant: I have formed you; you are my servant: Israel, you shall not be forgotten by me.

Isaiah 43:1,6,7 – But now thus says Yahweh who created you, Jacob, and he who formed you, Israel: Don’t be afraid, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by your name, you are mine…. I will tell the north, Give up; and to the south, Don’t keep back; bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the end of the earth; 7 everyone who is called by my name, and whom I have created for my glory, whom I have formed, yes, whom I have made.

Deuteronomy 32:6 – Do you thus requite Yahweh, Foolish people and unwise? Isn’t he your father who has bought you? He has made you, and established you.

Commonly, however, in NT scriptures, the words creation and created are limited in application either to the intelligent creation (which includes the angels as well as humans, powers, principalties in heaven or earth — Colossians 1:15); things created in heaven and earth (Revelation 5:13; 10:16), or more often, it is limited in application by context to the world of mankind, “the creation” having been subjected to vanity/futility. — Mark 10:6; 13:19; 16:15; Romans 8:19-22; Colossians 1:23; Hebrews 9:11; 2 Peter 3:4.

When Jesus said to “preach the gospel to the whole creation”, was he not referring to the mankind as a creation, but yet also as the offspring of Adam? Paul uses the word “creation” in a similar way in Romans 8:19-22. In Colossians 1:15, however, the word “creation” appears to be applying to all the intelligent creation, both in heaven and earth. The rule of Greek grammar on the partitive genitive proves that Jesus is being here referred to as the firstborn creature, because the construction, “firstborn of every creature [or all creation]“, is in Greek grammar called the partitive genitive, that is, the genitive which contains as a part of its contents the thing or things mentioned in the noun that governs the genitive. The expression, “the firstborn of every creature,” being in the Greek partitive genitive, includes as a part of itself the thing given in the noun that governs it, that being “firstborn.” Therefore, it shows that the firstborn one is a part of the creation spoken of and, accordingly, was created.

The expression “firstborn of all creation” is further shown to include Jesus as a creature as can be seen from similar usage in Revelation 1: 5: “firstborn of the dead”. Jesus was indeed dead, a member of the group of which he was the firstborn, and was the first to be fully made alive from the dead, never to die again. That Jesus was actually a member of those dead can be seen a few verses further, for Jesus says: “I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore.” (Revelation 1: 18) Later on, Jesus is referred to as the one “who was dead, and has come to life”. (Revelation 2:8) Further, Paul tell us that “Christ died, rose, and lived again.” (Romans 14:9) Jesus is not being spoken of as simply a ruler over the dead. Certainly, however, as being the first to actually be made alive from the dead, he possesses the right of firstborn in that sense also, thus we read: “Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.” (Romans 14:9) Thus Colossians 1:18 tells us: “He is the head of the body, the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.” The usuage of “firstborn”, however, both in Revelation 1:5 as well as Colossians 1: 15, does not mean that the one spoken of as firstborn is not a member of the group of which he the firstborn.
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September 1, 2011 at 5:01 pm#257487

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….3;st=20

Participant

Irene,
You say this in this thread:

Quote

Making remarks about others believes is uncalled for

and then you said this in another thread:

Quote

Nobody insulted you, only your doctrine….

So which is it Irene…it is ok for you to insult another's doctrine if you and your buddies are the insulter? Are you confused here?

September 1, 2011 at 10:17 pm#257495