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Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,09:22) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,17:35) I have two persons that are both God yet united as one God unity. The trinitarians have the same two persons that are both God yet united as one God unity also. They also have the Holy Spirit as a third person, where I understand the Holy Spirit to be their innerperson.
You have two, COMPLETELY SEPARATE God Almighties. Ask Jack, Keith, or your pastor how many God Almighties there are………….and see if they still agree with you.
Mike,
For me there is one God, the Father and one Lord, Jesus Christ. Together they form the unity of Jehovah the One God who is the God of gods and the Lord of lords.I do not teach two Almighty God the Fathers. One is the God of gods and the other is the Lord of lords and together they are the unity of Jehovah our God.
Many believe in the unity of Jehovah and see more than one person within that unity, each bearing the nature of deity.
Kathi
Quote Kathi seems to be saying that those who do not view Jesus as she does are going to Hell. Seems to? Kathi never said those words. Nope.
I do believe in scriptures though and that is what convicts, not me. If anyone is convicted by the scriptures that I post, then it is the scriptures that convict, not me.
Christians all over the world believe in the deity of Christ and the compound unity of God as a central necessary belief, not just me. This certainly is not just MY doctrine that I have introduced (Irene). I merely spread the doctrine of Christ that has been a part of the church since the beginning. Read the early church father's writings and the writings on this thread to know that I am not the founder of the doctrine of the deity of Christ and the unity of God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,11:50) Mike,
Can you tell me which one is the Lord? The verse talks about our Lord and our God, not just God. Jehovah is both Lord and God. Deut 10:17Kathi
Ezekiel 26:7
“For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: From the north I am going to bring against Tyre Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, King of kings, with horses and chariots, with horsemen and a great army.So Nebuchadnezzar is the King of kings, right?
Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”Now the Lamb is the COMPOUND UNITY of Jesus AND Nebuchadnezzar because he is both the Lord of lords AND King of kings, right?
Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods and Lord of lords, the great God, mighty and awesome, who shows no partiality and accepts no bribes.And that makes Jehovah the COMPOUND UNITY, not only of the Father and Jesus, but of Nebuchanezzar, Jesus and the Father.
Kathi, I hope you are able to see how nonsensical your Deut 10:17 claim is. It is beneath me to even respond to it, which is why I usually leave that part of your post unaddressed.
peace,
mikeQuote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,10:17) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,16:23) You will see that the subject for the middle of the verse is the 'world' and not the 'you.' The 'world' is singular and agrees with the singular verb 'judge.' The 'you' is written in the dative form and that means that it acts as the indirect object. These little pieces of Greek grammar are helpful to know, aren't they?
If you don't like 1 Cor 6:2, then try Jesus' commendations and warnings to the seven churches in Rev 2 and 3. You'll find many singular verbs conveying the actions of more than one person.Not because those people are all the same exact being, but because those people are one IN PURPOSE.
And consider this: Just because the church in Thyatira put up with “that women Jezebel” does not mean the church in Pergamum did, right?
Similarly, just because Jesus and his God are one in purpose does not mean that Jesus created the heavens and earth just because his God did, right? Nor does it mean that Jesus is worthy of God-worship just because his God is.
peace,
mike
Mike,
Where have I said that I didn't 'like' 1 Cor 6:2?Also, I completely agree that the compound unity of the church can act and speak as one person/one voice. I am the one that showed you that in the first place, remember?
The church is one in many ways, not just in purpose…also in belief in the Father and the Son, also as one body of Christ, also in the love AND KNOWLEDGE of God, also in being sealed in the Father and the Son by the Holy Spirit, also in receiving the fruits of the spirit, also in fellowship with the Father and the Son, also in receiving forgiveness, also in eternal salvation, etc.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:12) that is what the passage is about, not to teach about the Godhead but to teach that Jesus was tempted by satan like the rest of us and yet remained without sin.
That's quite a take on it, Kathi.
Because the way I understand it, Satan is quite convinced that Jesus is not his own God and Creator, but the Son OF that One.
Perhaps we DO need a thread about this. I'll get on it ASAP!
Mike,
Nebuchadnezzar was (past tense) the king that held the most power over the kings of the earth and that is why he had that title. Jesus is the King of kings of heaven and earth now and forever. Nebuchadnezzar has nothing to do as a part the unity of God. Are you going to use the argument that Jesus is called the Son of God and so all sons of God are part of the unity? Learn the difference between the divine King/only divine Son and the earthy king/earthy created son.Do you, yourself believe that the title of king of kings is the same as Jesus being the King of kings? If you do, then you have much to learn.
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,13:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:12) that is what the passage is about, not to teach about the Godhead but to teach that Jesus was tempted by satan like the rest of us and yet remained without sin.
That's quite a take on it, Kathi. Because the way I understand it, Satan is quite convinced that Jesus is not his own God and Creator, but the Son OF that One.
Perhaps we DO need a thread about this. I'll get on it ASAP!
Have fun with that. I won't waste my time there.Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:18) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,09:22)
You have two, COMPLETELY SEPARATE God Almighties. Ask Jack, Keith, or your pastor how many God Almighties there are………….and see if they still agree with you.
Mike,
I do not teach two Almighty God the Fathers.Kathi
Why are you now being shy and playing word games about your strongly held beliefs, Kathi?
You DO teach TWO Almighty Gods, do you not?
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,10:17)
And consider this: Just because the church in Thyatira put up with “that women Jezebel” does not mean the church in Pergamum did, right?Similarly, just because Jesus and his God are one in purpose does not mean that Jesus created the heavens and earth just because his God did, right? Nor does it mean that Jesus is worthy of God-worship just because his God is.
peace,
mike
I completely agree that the compound unity of the church can act and speak as one person/one voice. I am the one that showed you that in the first place, remember?Kathi
Okay. I'm now understanding your “compound unity” in a different light. But would you do me the honor of addressing the points I made above that you ignored?Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:47) Do you, yourself believe that the title of king of kings is the same as Jesus being the King of kings? If you do, then you have much to learn.
Read you own words above, Kathi.Translation: If Mike thinks that Nebuchadnezzar being called the King of kings equates him to the Lord of heaven and earth, then he has much to learn.
Now, let me spin those same words right back at ya, sister:
If Kathi thinks that Jesus being MADE the Lord of lords by his OWN God equates Jesus with the God who MADE him both Lord and Christ, then SHE has much to learn.
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:48) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,13:46) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:12) that is what the passage is about, not to teach about the Godhead but to teach that Jesus was tempted by satan like the rest of us and yet remained without sin.
That's quite a take on it, Kathi. Because the way I understand it, Satan is quite convinced that Jesus is not his own God and Creator, but the Son OF that One.
Perhaps we DO need a thread about this. I'll get on it ASAP!
Have fun with that. I won't waste my time there.
Oooh……………If remained silent you did, let this go I might have. But because great fear in you I sense, young Padawan, go through with it I MUST!
Yoda
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,13:57) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:47) Do you, yourself believe that the title of king of kings is the same as Jesus being the King of kings? If you do, then you have much to learn.
Read you own words above, Kathi.Translation: If Mike thinks that Nebuchadnezzar being called the King of kings equates him to the Lord of heaven and earth, then he has much to learn.
Now, let me spin those same words right back at ya, sister:
If Kathi thinks that Jesus being MADE the Lord of lords by his OWN God equates Jesus with the God who MADE him both Lord and Christ, then SHE has much to learn.
Mike,
Did you realize that Jesus was called Christ the Lord by the angels at the announcement by the angels to the shepherds when He was born?Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, “Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; 11for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord. 12“This will be a sign for you: you will find a baby wrapped in cloths and lying in a manger.” 13And suddenly there appeared with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God and saying,
14“Glory to God in the highest,
And on earth peace among men with whom He is pleased.”Did you also know that it was from His birth from Mary that the Father was His God and not before. The Father was His God only to Jesus' position as a man who was made for a little while lower than the angels.
Psalm 22:10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.
This Psalm is a prophecy of the Messiah.
Kathi
Mike,
Elisabeth, the mother of John the Baptist, knew that her son was going to…:Luke 1:13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14“You will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15“For he will be great in the sight of the Lord; and he will drink no wine or liquor, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit while yet in his mother’s womb. 16“And he will turn many of the sons of Israel back to the Lord their God. 17“It is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, TO TURN THE HEARTS OF THE FATHERS BACK TO THE CHILDREN, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous, so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”
This passage tells us that John is going before Israel's Lord, their God, as a forerunner to make ready a people prepared for the Lord. Elisabeth knew these things and when Mary appeared at her doorstep, soon after she conceived this Lord that John was a forerunner for, Elisabeth said this:
Luke 1:41When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. 42And she cried out with a loud voice and said, “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! 43“And how has it happened to me, that the mother of my Lord would come to me? 44“For behold, when the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby leaped in my womb for joy. 45“And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfillment of what had been spoken to her by the Lord.”
Elisabeth already knew that her son was going to prepare the way of Jehovah and by the Holy Spirit realized that Mary was carrying Him in her womb. She called Mary the mother of her Lord. This Jehovah is the one called the Lord of lords, the Son in Deut. 10:17. This is not the Jehovah the Father.
Kathi
Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,13:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,12:37) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,10:17)
And consider this: Just because the church in Thyatira put up with “that women Jezebel” does not mean the church in Pergamum did, right?Similarly, just because Jesus and his God are one in purpose does not mean that Jesus created the heavens and earth just because his God did, right? Nor does it mean that Jesus is worthy of God-worship just because his God is.
peace,
mike
I completely agree that the compound unity of the church can act and speak as one person/one voice. I am the one that showed you that in the first place, remember?Kathi
Okay. I'm now understanding your “compound unity” in a different light. But would you do me the honor of addressing the points I made above that you ignored?
Glory to God!
I will try to address your other points later.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 29 2011,05:47) The organized church made up of the believers in the Father and the Son and their Spirit, all over the world, believes in the deity of Christ and the unity of God and has ministries in place for all these needs…thank God for the organized body of Christ…anyone who is a believer in them are not to neglect doing their part within the body of Christ that the Lord has called them to do, the church needs all body parts working together to attain perfect unity: “The King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me,
I was sick and you visited me,
I was in prison and you came to me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'”John 17:23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
LU,
Were you quoting this that I wrote:Matt 7:
Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens. Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied through thy name, and through thy name cast out demons, and through thy name done many works of power? and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.
What is the will of the Father?
Jesus goes on to say to depart those who practise lawlessness because He never knew them.
So what is lawlessness?
This is summed up as not loving God as we should do, or our neighbour as ourself.And what does Jesus do when he comes back in judgment?
He seperates the Sheep from the Goats.Who is the Sheep and who is the Goats?
This is the Sheep:
“The King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me,
I was sick and you visited me,
I was in prison and you came to me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'”And this is the Goats:
“Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was a stranger and you did not welcome me,
Naked and you did not clothe me,
Sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”No mention of a compound unity of two equal Gods being essential to salvation there.
In other posts you said to certain people that they are not saved because they do not believe as you do – that there are two equal Gods, then tell me this, kathi. I had a friend who didnt have much money. He lived in a house truck. He was cool. All the woman loved him. And the men respected him. But that wasnt the point. the point is, he was my best friend, and he had a problem with drugs and crime, right. So, even though he owned very little, he went out of his way to help those who were his friends. He went cold so he could give us his heater. he went hungry so we had food. He gave me his Jersey to keep warm, he would go to prison to protect those he loves. If he was walking down the street and he saw a woman being beaten, he would be beating the man himself. And as a man, he didnt want nothing back.
He went on, gave up his drugs and crime, and became a councillor. Hes dead now. But you know, his views on God and creation he kept to himself. So is he saved or not according to your doctrine?
Because according to my Lord and Saviour, he did good. And God is love. And there are many these days who do things to be seen by man. They do things to be saved themself. They do it because they are scared they will go to hell.
Now reread what Jesus said. Who are the Goats and who are the Sheep?
Hi Kathi,
To BOTH of your posts, I only repeat:
If Kathi thinks that Jesus being MADE the Lord of lords by his OWN God equates Jesus with the God who MADE him both Lord and Christ, then SHE has much to learn.
Acts 2:36
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”Just read the underlined words, Kathi.
Why are you afraid of my new thread about the temptation of Jesus, Kathi? There is much truth in that thread that you cannot handle, isn't there?
Mike,
Jesus was Lord always and appointed to be the Christ from eternity. His resurrection made it evident that He was both Lord and Christ. That is how God 'made' Him both Lord and Christ, which He always was (Lord) or was to be (Christ), by raising Him from the dead and making the fact evident. The resurrection made who He was evident to Thomas, remember what Thomas said when He saw evidence of His resurrection. It was then when Thomas proclaimed Him, his Lord and his God.Remember the discussions and how some would say that Jesus became the Son of God at the resurrection and they would quote this verse:
Romans 1:1Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4who was declared the Son of God with power by the resurrection from the dead, according to the Spirit of holiness, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles for His name’s sake, 6among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
His resurrection did not make Him the Son of God, did it? No, but His resurrection did establish the fact. It also established the fact of His being Christ and Lord.
Also, I already told you why I am not interested in your new thread and I said nothing about fear.
Gotta go follow a girl and her horse back to the pasture
Kathi
Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 29 2011,05:02) Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 28 2011,12:54) Matt 19: He (Jesus) said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”.
Matt 22:
(Jesus speaking) “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”.
Joshua 24:
“As for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh”.
Deut 6:
“Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one”.
John 20:
(Jesus speaking) “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”.
I agree with Irene that they are good scriptures, but so are these:John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father's side, has made him known.
I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh
Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus 6 Who being in very nature God
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form
Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
We must be careful that in our zeal to correct the false teaching that Jesus is an equal “God” to the Father, that we don't strip away all that scripture has assigned to Him as God, the manifested extension of the Father to Man. He has come from the Father and in all ways represents God to us while acknowledging the Father as His God and our God.
My opinion – Wm
WMJohn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) god;
this as been already well documented,Jn 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but god(Christ) the One and Only ( begotten son), who is at the Father’s side, has made him known
this is what scriptures teaches ;
1Ti 3:15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.
1Ti 3:16 Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great:
He appeared in a body,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory.is there any doubts about who is Paul talking about ?there is no one other than Christ the son of the living God
Phil 2:4 Each of you should look not only to your own interests, but also to the interests of others.
Phil 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
Phil 2:7 but made himself nothing,if you understand what Paul is saying ,then you also would understand that he does not make Christ god ,but that he possessed this nature for being the only begotten son of God but did not find and excuse to look for his self interest ,
Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God , has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”
so God the father is the God of Christ the god.
Col 2:6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him,
Col 2:7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form,
Col 2:10 and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
Col 2:11 In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.the above scriptures are showing that Christ was the son of God and not God the father ,and because he is the son of God it would normal that he as a part of deity but does not make him God the father
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Col 1:16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.
Col 1:17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy.
Col 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him,
Col 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Col 1:21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior.
Col 1:22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—
Col 1:23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.Christ is the image but he is not an image ,he is the son and so has a separate being with all the qualities of the father “same spirit “
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God (Christ the son of God)
is God a child ?his God man ? his God his own son ?
Quote We must be careful that in our zeal to correct the false teaching that Jesus is an equal “God” to the Father, VERY TRUE
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 30 2011,04:05) Did you realize that Jesus was called Christ the Lord by the angels at the announcement by the angels to the shepherds when He was born?
“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”He didn't make him YHWH did he? We can both agree on that because you believe he is YHWH and wasn't made YHWH and I believe he is the son, the lord, the christ, and rather than YHWH he is Yahshua (or some other spelling).
So whatever stance you take here, I think you need to revisit what Lord means. Lord is not YHWH. Rather LORD is YHWH and clearly Jesus is Lord and not LORD.
1 Corinthians 8:6
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.Also the above scripture and others is what you are attacking with your doctrine. But because we agree with it, we are part of the US that Paul mentions, while you clearly are not by your own admission.
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