Ancient Syriac Documents

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,13:22)

John 10:30 The Father and I are one.

John 17:11b that they may be one even as We are (There 'oneness' is a 'we,' not a 'me…Jesus is praying that the church would be one even as the Godhead is one…in unity, the unity of more than one in knowledge and love among other things.)

2 Thes 2

Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you this? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

August 28, 2011 at 1:16 am#257111

Participant

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 27 2011,19:59)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 28 2011,10:43)

You and I are the same type of being but we are not the same person. We are not the same type of being as God nor Jesus and never will be. Jesus is not the same person as God His Father but He is the same type of being as God His Father and God the Father is not the only Lord that Jesus is but they are the same type of being. The Father is not the begotten God and the Son is not the unbegotten God, yet they are both the same type of God beings.

Like I said before. By your own admission, YHWH to you is not a HIM, but THEM and US.

Just as mankind is US and THEM.

So yes refer to your version of God as THEM and US and at least we can see you are honest with your own doctrine, even if we and scripture disagree.

I am not asking you to right, but to be at least honest in what you teach.

This goes for KJ, IS, and any other Trinitarian or Binitarian.

It is truly only those who believe in one God, the Father that can call God HIM. That is who we are. We are the US that Paul mentioned. “For US, there is one God the Father”.

We are that “US” and you are not, let's at least be clear about that.

t8,
Yes, you only have one God the Father…we have one God the Father AND one Lord Jesus Christ. That is what is clear to me.

God said, Let US make man…

August 28, 2011 at 2:19 am#257113

Participant

Matthew 22:

Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Question – Who was speaking?
Answer – It was Jesus.
And who was he speaking about?
Answer – It was God the father.

Easy!

Deut 6:

Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might. And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.

2 Thes 2 – Is about lawlessness
Lawlessness is the breaking of Gods laws, and these were summed up by Jesus.
The number of the Beast in Rev is the number of man.
The number of the beast is evident in the mark which is on the right hand or the forehead.
And dont take this mark as a literal mark.
See the underlined above.

So what do you have to say about that?
According to you God is now two equal Gods.

August 28, 2011 at 3:44 am#257116

Participant

But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Jesus is the one Lord.

2 Cor 4
1Therefore, since we have this ministry, as we received mercy, we do not lose heart, 2but we have renounced the things hidden because of shame, not walking in craftiness or adulterating the word of God, but by the manifestation of truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. 3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, 4in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake. 6For God, who said, “Light shall shine out of darkness,” is the One who has shone in our hearts to give the Light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.

1 Cor 2:14
14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, THAT HE WILL INSTRUCT HIM? But we have the mind of Christ.

2 Corinth 3
14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit.

August 28, 2011 at 4:54 am#257118

Participant

Matt 19:

He (Jesus) said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”.

Matt 22:

(Jesus speaking) “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”.

Joshua 24:

“As for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh”.

Deut 6:

“Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one”.

John 20:

(Jesus speaking) “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”.

August 28, 2011 at 6:23 am#257124

Pastry

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 28 2011,15:54)

Matt 19:
He (Jesus) said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but one, that is, God. If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments”.
Matt 22:
(Jesus speaking) “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind”.
Joshua 24:
“As for me and my house, we will serve Yahweh”.
Deut 6:
“Hear, Israel: Yahweh is our God; Yahweh is one”.
John 20:

(Jesus speaking) “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”.

Shimmer, you put good Scriptures to light, with several posts you made,…. Good Job…Peace and Love to you and yours Irene

August 28, 2011 at 9:57 am#257127

Participant

Peace and love to you and yours too Irene.

August 28, 2011 at 9:58 am#257128

Participant

2 Corin 11:

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

August 28, 2011 at 11:02 am#257131

seekingtruth

Participant

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 28 2011,12:54)

(Jesus speaking) “I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God”.

I agree with Irene that they are good scriptures, but so are these:

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

I Tim 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh

Philippians 2:5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus 6 Who being in very nature God

Hebrews 1:8 But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. 9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy.”

Col 2:9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form

Col 1:15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,

We must be careful that in our zeal to correct the false teaching that Jesus is an equal “God” to the Father, that we don't strip away all that scripture has assigned to Him as God, the manifested extension of the Father to Man. He has come from the Father and in all ways represents God to us while acknowledging the Father as His God and our God.

My opinion – Wm

August 28, 2011 at 12:31 pm#257133

Participant

Seekingtuth, I agree. No-one here is denying those Scriptures.
Kathi seems to be saying that those who do not view Jesus as she does are going to Hell.
ie: Those who believe that Jesus is the Christ and Jesus is the Son of God are going to Hell.

However Scripture says the Antichrist is He who denies the Father and the Son. He who denies that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ.

So tell me, who here is doing that?

August 28, 2011 at 12:47 pm#257135

Participant

Matt 7:

Not every one who says to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but he that does the will of my Father who is in the heavens. Many shall say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied through thy name, and through thy name cast out demons, and through thy name done many works of power? and then will I avow unto them, I never knew you. Depart from me, workers of lawlessness.

What is the will of the Father?
Jesus goes on to say its those who practise lawlessness.
So what is lawlessness?
This is summed up as not loving God as we should do, or our neighbour as ourself.

And what does Jesus do when he comes back in judgment?
He seperates the Sheep from the Goats.

Who is the Sheep and who is the Goats?

This is the Sheep:

“The King will say to those at his right hand, `Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world;
For I was hungry and you gave me food,
I was thirsty and you gave me drink,
I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
I was naked and you clothed me,
I was sick and you visited me,
I was in prison and you came to me.'
Then the righteous will answer him, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?'
And the King will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.'”

And this is the Goats:

“Then he will say to those at his left hand, `Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels;
For I was hungry and you gave me no food,
I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
I was a stranger and you did not welcome me,
Naked and you did not clothe me,
Sick and in prison and you did not visit me.'
Then they also will answer, `Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?'
Then he will answer them, `Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.'
And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

No mention of a compound unity of two equal Gods being essential to salvation there.

August 28, 2011 at 1:00 pm#257137

Pastry

Participant

Wm! Shimmer is right, Kathi believes that Jehovah is a unity between Jesus and His Father and both are called by that name…You should really read up on what was said on this tread…. Kathi also says that those that do not believe that doctrine is an unbeliever…. When in fact Jehovah is the name of Almighty God Alone….
Psa 83:18 That [men] may know that thou, whose name alone [is] JEHOVAH, [art] the most high over all the earth.

Psa 68:4 Sing unto God, sing praises to his name: extol him that rideth upon the heavens by his name Jehovah, and rejoice before him.

Psa 97:9 For thou, LORD, (Jehovah)[art] high above all the earth: thou art exalted far above all gods.

She has accused very good members here…. And that I find very wrong…..

Our God Jehovah is above all, and those that worship Him should worship Him in Spirit and in truth.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

Peace Irene

August 28, 2011 at 2:11 pm#257141

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,16:53)

Mike,

2 Thess 2:16-17
16Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17 comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

1 Thess 3:11
Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;

This structure, compound subjects, with singular verbs…would demonstrate two persons acting as one. These are the ways they (Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father) act as one from these two verses:

They both loved the apostles.
They both have given the apostles eternal comfort and hope by grace.
Together they comfort the apostles.
Together they strengthen the brethren's hearts in every good work and word.
Together they direct the apostle's way to the brethren.

Together they (the Lord Jesus and God the Father) do these things as a unity which acts as one person while really being two persons. They do these things without being seen by the apostles. They also do the action in an active way, not a passive way. How do they both do those divine, supernatural actions together in a singular way and in an active way and without even being visible to them, unless they are a compound unity that is divine?

Kathi

Hi Kathi,

I agree with your post. Now could you tell me, from the words of the scriptures you quoted, which one of those TWO persons acting as one is God? And could you tell me which one of them was the SON OF God? I can.

August 28, 2011 at 2:15 pm#257142

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,17:00)

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 26 2011,21:48)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,20:34)

Mike,

Jesus taught that we are to worship Jehovah our God. So do I. The Father and He are one. That would mean that we would worship both.

Actually, Jesus told Satan, who was asking Jesus to worship HIM, that we are to worship “the Lord your God and serve Him ONLY”. The word was “kurios”, not “YHWH”. And Jesus used the word “HIM”, not “US”.

Now, do you think Satan was asking his own God and Creator to bow down and worship HIM?

And do you think Jesus was really telling Satan, “I'm not to worship YOU, you're to worship ME!”?

Is that seriously what you think that conversation was about, Kathi?

Because if it is, we need to delve into that conversation word by word and get to the bottom of your misunderstanding.

mike

Mike,
YHVH is not written in the NT, we know when kurious refers to YHVH when the NT is referring to something in the OT that uses YHVH instead of adonai or adown.

In this case Jesus isn't telling satan who to worship, He is responding to satan by quoting what was written in response to satan's request of Him.

Note that the word 'Father' in this command is not specified.

Kathi

Hi Kathi,

You've left many questions unanswered. Like do you think Satan was asking his own God and Creator to worship him?

Also, do you think Satan was going to get his Creator to worship him by offering him the same kingdoms that Creator GAVE to him in the first place?

Finally, do YOU seriously think that Satan viewed Jesus as God Most High and his own Creator – based on the words of the whole conversation in the wilderness? Because if your answer is “YES”, then this is worth a thread of its own.

peace,
mike

August 28, 2011 at 2:22 pm#257144

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,17:35)

I have two persons that are both God yet united as one God unity. The trinitarians have the same two persons that are both God yet united as one God unity also. They also have the Holy Spirit as a third person, where I understand the Holy Spirit to be their innerperson.

You have two, COMPLETELY SEPARATE God Almighties. Ask Jack, Keith, or your pastor how many God Almighties there are………….and see if they still agree with you.

August 28, 2011 at 2:50 pm#257145

Blocked

Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 28 2011,05:02)

Hi Wm,

Many of the scriptures you quoted are blatant mistranslations by men who have an odd desire for the Son OF God to BE that God he is the Son OF.

For example, John 1:1 couldn't possibly be saying that the Word was the SAME God he was WITH.

1:18 says “the only begotten god”, not “God the One and Only”.

1 Timothy 3:16 doesn't even have the word “God” in the Greek text. Instead, it says “HE was manifest in the flesh………….”

Phil 2:5 says, “who, existing in the FORM OF God, did NOT consider equality with God something to be grasped”. Any time you see the words “OF God”, it should be clear that the one who was “OF God” is not the God he is “OF”. For example, if Jesus was said to have the wisdom OF God, then it would be clear that Jesus was NOT the God he had the wisdom OF. This works also with Son OF God, Christ OF God, Servant OF God, Lamb OF God, firstborn OF God, prophet of God, etc.

Hebrews 1:8 could just as faithfully be translated as, “God is your throne forever…………..” But all you need to do is read verse 9 to find out that it was THE God who placed this other god above his companions. Are you with Kathi now? Do you also consider us to have TWO God Almighties, one who placed the other one above his companions? Wm, God Almighty does not have a God of His own. But His Son Jesus does. In fact, Jesus says that his God is the same God as OUR God. And we have but ONE God, the Father. Jesus says this God of ours is the “only true God”.

peace,
mike

August 28, 2011 at 3:17 pm#257151

Blocked

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,16:23)

You will see that the subject for the middle of the verse is the 'world' and not the 'you.' The 'world' is singular and agrees with the singular verb 'judge.' The 'you' is written in the dative form and that means that it acts as the indirect object.

These little pieces of Greek grammar are helpful to know, aren't they?

If you don't like 1 Cor 6:2, then try Jesus' commendations and warnings to the seven churches in Rev 2 and 3. You'll find many singular verbs conveying the actions of more than one person.

Not because those people are all the same exact being, but because those people are one IN PURPOSE.

And consider this: Just because the church in Thyatira put up with “that women Jezebel” does not mean the church in Pergamum did, right?

Similarly, just because Jesus and his God are one in purpose does not mean that Jesus created the heavens and earth just because his God did, right? Nor does it mean that Jesus is worthy of God-worship just because his God is.

peace,
mike

August 28, 2011 at 5:47 pm#257176

Participant

The organized church made up of the believers in the Father and the Son and their Spirit, all over the world, believes in the deity of Christ and the unity of God and has ministries in place for all these needs…thank God for the organized body of Christ…anyone who is a believer in them are not to neglect doing their part within the body of Christ that the Lord has called them to do, the church needs all body parts working together to attain perfect unity:

John 17:23 I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

August 28, 2011 at 5:50 pm#257177

Participant

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 28 2011,09:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 27 2011,16:53)

Mike,

1 Thess 3:11
Now may our God and Father Himself and Jesus our Lord direct our way to you;

Kathi

Hi Kathi,

Mike,
Can you tell me which one is the Lord? The verse talks about our Lord and our God, not just God. Jehovah is both Lord and God. Deut 10:17

Kathi

August 28, 2011 at 6:12 pm#257179