Ancient Syriac Documents

[Pastry]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,04:06)

Ok, so I read through Mike's, Irene's and t8's posts and suffice it to say…no one seems to understand: 1. How a compound unity has more than one person in it, hence one can be the father of the other.  The 'other' does not need to be the 'father' of himself. 2. A compound unity is both plural AND singular depending on if one is emphasizing the unity or the persons within the unity. 3. A compound unity can speak and act as one and therefore Jehovah speaks with one voice and acts as one person.  The church is meant to speak with one voice too. Rom 15:6 so that with one mind and one voice you might glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah.

Kathi! Being united in their believes, does not qualify Jesus to be called Jehovah… Because that is the Most High Gods name ALONE….
Are we not too be of the same mind?

Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Does that make us Jehovah too?

Well I don;t think so… There is no Scripture that proof that either..

Why does it say in

1Cr 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

Why is Jesus called our Mediator? We go through Jesus to pray to God and not that we pray to both… That would go against a commandment of God….

Jesus Himself gave us that commandment, to love thy God with all of thy Heart. You are given our God a disservice…

And how are we saved? Is it not a gift from God by Faith in Christ Jesus? Why? Because He died for you and me and is our Mediator, and no more scarifies are needed… He is the perfect scarifies…. That is why we go through Jesus… and ask in His name, not Jehovah's name….That ALONE is the Most High God…….
Irene

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[Pastry]

Quote (Ed J @ Aug. 25 2011,16:45)

Quote (Pastry @ Aug. 25 2011,11:47) Mike!   Then we have Ed and Kerwin that think John 1 is talking about Gods Holy Spirit. Peace Irene Hi Irene, Are you forgetting about Gene and Paladin believing this as well? God bless Ed J (Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed. I am not having a conversation with Paladin or Gene…Irene

[csaliba]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ May 29 2011,11:35)

Hi Kathi, What I'm saying is that your source has Peter saying Jesus COMMANDED them to baptize in the triune formula.  Yet Acts has Peter baptizing in the name of Jesus only.   You can rationalize that this was for emphasis, like you rationalize that God will be okay with you worshipping someone other than Him just because that someone other is His Son.  I'm not here to judge you, for it is not my place to judge another servant of my master. I'm only here to tell you that I feel safer following the commands of God and Jesus EXACTLY, (to the best of my ability, of course), and not rationalizing with my own flawed human brain that God probably will be okay with me doing it this way instead of the way he explicitely told me to.   You are apparently more “risky” than I am in that department, and I hope God does see it your way for your sake.   So about Peter, we would have to decide if we think Peter is more like you, or more like me.  I personally think that if Jesus COMMANDED Peter to baptize in the triune formula, then that is what he would have done.  But who knows?  Maybe Peter was thinking like you that it's okay to break the Lord's commandments as long as we have good intentions. mike

Mike,

Couldn't be a possibility,that when Peter asked someone if they were baptized in the name of Jesus,was only referring to what kind of baptism they were baptized,and not to how they were baptized??

There were two kinds of baptism,which were one of John the baptist immersion in the water.and the other of Jesus.

So the only way to recognize which one,was to ask either whether the one in the name of John,or in the name of Jesus!!!

Peace and Love in Jesus Christ.

Charles

[Lightenup]

Irene,
you said:

Quote

Being united in their believes, does not qualify Jesus to be called Jehovah

The Father and the Son are united in far more than their beliefs.  They have the same peace, same grace, same truth, same love, same power, same wisdom, same nature, both are our savior, both are our creator, both are with believers and in believers and therefore both are present in more than one place at the same time, both know the future, both existed before creation, etc.

All those things would certainly qualify Jesus to be our Lord of lords Jehovah.

you further ask:

Quote

Are we not too be of the same mind? Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:   Does that make us Jehovah too?

Can you be here and there at the same time and in all believers? Jesus can.
Will you have the wisdom of God? Jesus does.
Will you have the power of God? Jesus does.
Will you ever be the only way to the Father? Jesus is.
Will you be giving eternal life to anyone, Irene?  Jesus can.
Will you ever be the only begotten Son with the nature of God?  Jesus is.
Will you be believed in with the Father?  Jesus is.
Will you be the only master and Lord?  Jesus is.
Will you be the Lord over all?  Jesus is.
Will you be the head of the whole church?  Jesus is.
Will you be the savior of the whole church?  Jesus is.
Will you sit on the Father's throne?  Jesus does.
Can you heal the sick with your own power?  Jesus can.
Or can you calm the sea with your own power?  Jesus can.
Tell us if you can, Irene so that you can give us all counsel on how you do this?
Will you create out of nothing Irene…by just willing it so?  Jesus did.
Why don't you try it on a glass of water and turn it into wine by your own power.

Does that answer your question…YOU are not going to be a part of the Godhead, Irene.  No one is.  You hope to be part of the church, not part of the Godhead.  

There is a unity within the church and a unity within the Godhead.  The Godhead is the head of the church.  The church is the body of Christ, not the head.  Jesus wants us to be one as a church as He and the Father are one as a Godhead.

Quote

1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God.

As far as I understand it, God the Father is God and Father to Jesus, in His role as the 'man from heaven' and Father to the pre-existent Person that joined the flesh to become the man from heaven.

It is the Son's role as the 'man from heaven' who dies, then rises and returns to heaven, that acts as mediator.

you ask:

Quote

Why is Jesus called our Mediator?  We go through Jesus to pray to God and not that we pray to both… That would go against a commandment of God….

Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son, not just the Father.

We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

We can ask the Father for things and also ask the Son.

John 14:13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it.

You can see that we can talk and ask anything of each of them and the reason that isn't against the first commandment is because they are the one Jehovah, the compound unity which speaks with one voice and acts as one person and yet are different persons, one the Father and one the Son.

Quote

Jesus Himself gave us that commandment, to love thy God with all of thy Heart.  You are given our God a disservice…

Irene, if Jesus isn't included with the Father as the Jehovah that we love with all of our heart, is He just your neighbor that you love as yourself?  Are we to love Jesus only as much as ourselves or are we to  love Jesus more than our own selves?  Which commandment does your Jesus fit into?

Matt 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.

Quote

And how are we saved?  Is it not a gift from God by Faith in Christ Jesus? Why? Because He died for you and me and is our Mediator, and no more scarifies are needed… He is the perfect scarifies…. That is why we go through Jesus… and ask in His name, not Jehovah's name….That ALONE is the Most High God…….

1 John 5:11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

You have to have the right 'Son' not the wrong 'Son.'  There are different Jesus' you know.  One you worship as your Lord and Savior, the other you don't.  The disciples worshiped Him as their Lord and Savior.

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Quote (csaliba @ Aug. 25 2011,14:17)

There were two kinds of baptism,which were one of John the baptist immersion in the water.and the other of Jesus.

Yes Charles,

TWO baptisms. Not a third one in the triune name. At least it wasn't one that any disciple ever followed in cannonized scripture. And that strikes me as odd, if Jesus in fact COMMANDED his disciples to baptize in the triune name, and none of them actually FOLLOWED his COMMANDMENT.

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,11:06)

The 'other' does not need to be the 'father' of himself.

But if Jesus is a part of the “compound unity” of the God Most High, and also the Son OF the God Most High, then “human nature Jesus” is the Son of “God nature Jesus”. Therefore, according to your doctrine, Jesus IS his own Son.

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,16:05)

Irene, you said: Quote Being united in their believes, does not qualify Jesus to be called Jehovah The Father and the Son are united in far more than their beliefs.  They have the same peace, same grace, same truth, same love, same power, same wisdom, same nature, both are our savior, both are our creator, both are with believers and in believers and therefore both are present in more than one place at the same time, both know the future, both existed before creation, etc. All those things would certainly qualify Jesus to be our Lord of lords Jehovah. you further ask: Quote Are we not too be of the same mind? Phl 2:5 ¶ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:   Does that make us Jehovah too?   Can you be here and there at the same time and in all believers? Jesus can. Will you have the wisdom of God? Jesus does. Will you have the power of God? Jesus does. Will you ever be the only way to the Father? Jesus is. Will you be giving eternal life to anyone, Irene?  Jesus can. Will you ever be the only begotten Son with the nature of God?  Jesus is. Will you be believed in with the Father?  Jesus is. Will you be the only master and Lord?  Jesus is. Will you be the Lord over all?  Jesus is. Will you be the head of the whole church?  Jesus is. Will you be the savior of the whole church?  Jesus is. Will you sit on the Father's throne?  Jesus does. Can you heal the sick with your own power?  Jesus can. Or can you calm the sea with your own power?  Jesus can. Tell us if you can, Irene so that you can give us all counsel on how you do this? Will you create out of nothing Irene…by just willing it so?  Jesus did. Why don't you try it on a glass of water and turn it into wine by your own power. Does that answer your question…YOU are not going to be a part of the Godhead, Irene.  No one is.  You hope to be part of the church, not part of the Godhead.   There is a unity within the church and a unity within the Godhead.  The Godhead is the head of the church.  The church is the body of Christ, not the head.  Jesus wants us to be one as a church as He and the Father are one as a Godhead. Quote 1Cr 11:3   But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman [is] the man; and the head of Christ [is] God. As far as I understand it, God the Father is God and Father to Jesus, in His role as the 'man from heaven' and Father to the pre-existent Person that joined the flesh to become the man from heaven. It is the Son's role as the 'man from heaven' who dies, then rises and returns to heaven, that acts as mediator. you ask: Quote Why is Jesus called our Mediator?  We go through Jesus to pray to God and not that we pray to both… That would go against a commandment of God…. Our fellowship is with the Father and the Son, not just the Father. We proclaim to you what we have seen and heard, so that you also may have fellowship with us. And our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son, Jesus Christ. We can ask the Father for things and also ask the Son. John 14:13“Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14“If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it. You can see that we can talk and ask anything of each of them and the reason that isn't against the first commandment is because they are the one Jehovah, the compound unity which speaks with one voice and acts as one person and yet are different persons, one the Father and one the Son. Quote Jesus Himself gave us that commandment, to love thy God with all of thy Heart.  You are given our God a disservice… Irene, if Jesus isn't included with the Father as the Jehovah that we love with all of our heart, is He just your neighbor that you love as yourself?  Are we to love Jesus only as much as ourselves or are we to  love Jesus more than our own selves?  Which commandment does your Jesus fit into? Matt 10:37 “He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. 38“And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. 39“He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it. Quote And how are we saved?  Is it not a gift from God by Faith in Christ Jesus? Why? Because He died for you and me and is our Mediator, and no more scarifies are needed… He is the perfect scarifies…. That is why we go through Jesus… and ask in His name, not Jehovah's name….That ALONE is the Most High God……. 1 John 5:11And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. You have to have the right 'Son' not the wrong 'Son.'  There are different Jesus' you know.  One you worship as your Lord and Savior, the other you don't.  The disciples worshiped Him as their Lord and Savior. Kathi

Kathi

Can you be here and there at the same time and in all believers? Jesus can.
Will you have the wisdom of God? Jesus does.
Will you have the power of God? Jesus does.
Will you ever be the only way to the Father? Jesus is.
Will you be giving eternal life to anyone, Irene? Jesus can.
Will you ever be the only begotten Son with the nature of God? Jesus is.
Will you be believed in with the Father? Jesus is.
Will you be the only master and Lord? Jesus is.
Will you be the Lord over all? Jesus is.
Will you be the head of the whole church? Jesus is.
Will you be the savior of the whole church? Jesus is.
Will you sit on the Father's throne? Jesus does.
Can you heal the sick with your own power? Jesus can.
Or can you calm the sea with your own power? Jesus can.
Tell us if you can, Irene so that you can give us all counsel on how you do this?
Will you create out of nothing Irene…by just willing it so? Jesus did.

who give all those thing to Jesus ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 24 2011,22:22)

2 Corinthians 11:3-4 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ. 4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. It is possible to preach another Jesus. The Jesus who is YHWH, is not the Jesus who is the son of YHWH.

Hi t8,

Good scripture.  So is this one:
John 8
24 I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins.”

25 “Who are you?” they asked.

  “Just what I have been claiming all along,” Jesus replied.

I started a thread about this called “Is God Almighty One, Two or Three?”  The object was to show from Jesus' OWN WORDS exactly who he did claim to be all along.  The challenge for the “Jesus is God” people was to find a scripture where Jesus himself claimed to be God, or equal to Him.  It has so far gone over exactly as I knew it would.  

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,11:23)

Hmmm…Let's see, 2 Corinthians was written by Paul, right.  So did he preach the unity of the Father and the Son? 2 Thess 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word. I find it interesting that although this passage has two persons listed as the subject, a compound subject, the verbs are all written in the singular form and not plural form as would normally apply to compound subjects.  This would show that Jesus and the Father act as one.  Hence, a compound unity.

OR…………………..

2 Thess 2:16
Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, (who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace), 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word.

It is like me saying, “May Kathi and Keith, the one who calls himself Worshipping Jesus, find understanding and truth.”

See?  The part in between the commas does not refer to BOTH of you, but only to ONE of you.  And wording it like this would not alter all the other evidence that you and Keith are really TWO different people.  Although, I suppose that if one was needy enough, they could point to my wording here to suggest that you and Keith were a compound unity.  

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you have the wisdom of God? Jesus does.

What scripture tells you this, Kathi?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you have the power of God? Jesus does.

What scripture tells you this?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you be giving eternal life to anyone, Irene?  Jesus can.

Yes.  Jesus' own God has GRANTED him to have life in him.  Jesus GRANTED the same to his disciples.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you ever be the only begotten Son with the nature of God?  Jesus is.

If Jesus has the nature OF GOD, then he cannot BE the God he has the nature OF.  

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you be believed in with the Father?  Jesus is.

I believe in Moses.  Does that mean HE'S God?  

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you be the only master and Lord?  Jesus is.

Tell me again Kathi…………..WHO is the One that MADE Jesus Lord and Christ?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you be the Lord over all?  Jesus is.

Same question as above.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you be the head of the whole church?  Jesus is.

And who does scripture say is the Head of JESUS?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Can you heal the sick with your own power?  Jesus can.

John 10:32
but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”

WHOSE power actually healed the sick, Kathi?

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Or can you calm the sea with your own power?  Jesus can.

Same question as above.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,16:05)

Will you create out of nothing Irene…by just willing it so?  Jesus did.

What scripture says Jesus created anything?  Don't forget that all things are FROM God, and THROUGH His Son.

Kathi, you are clearly misunderstanding a lot of the scriptural teachings if you think these questions you asked Irene are the truth of what the scriptures teach.

Kathi, Jehovah is the Most High God. (Gen 14:22)  And Jesus is the SON OF the Most High God.  (Mark 5:7)

It's really not that hard of a concept. Do you deny these two scriptures, Kathi?

peace,
mike

[Pastry]

Kathi! Jehovah God is omnipresent, Jesus is not. Jehovah God is all powerful, Jesus has some but in the end He will give His Kingdom back to Jehovah God….It is by Jehovah's Holy Spirit that Jesus does things….

It is Jehovah who raised Jesus from the death, not Jesus Himself….
Jesus only does what the Father tells Him to do…He came to do the will of Him that sent Him…not is own will …..

Jhn 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

What does this Scripture tell you, Kathi??

You gave

1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

God gave eternal life by Faith in Christ Jesus…. Why Kathi? because He is our perfect Scarifies…..He has eternal life now, never to die again, that is what that means….And God is going to give eternal life to us also….by Faith… in Christ…

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised [us] up together, and made [us] sit together in heavenly [places] in Christ Jesus:
Eph 2:7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in [his] kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

And the Head of Jesus is Jehovah God, that means in everything Jesus does, He will do what the Father wants Him to do….
When I pray I pray through Jesus, the commandment that Jesus Himself gave us, is to Love Thy God with all thy heart….

Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Maybe you need to look in the mirror, and see if you have the right Jesus…. I know Him by the Scriptures of the Bible, you on the other hand teach that Jesus is also Jehovah and that is not according to Scriptures, and goes against the commandment of God, to love Him with all our hearths…

I never said not to love Jesus either, but to God I pray through Jesus not TO Jesus like you are doing… that is the different Jesus then what you are teaching….

Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

Mat 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Peace Irene

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,04:06)

Ok, so I read through Mike's, Irene's and t8's posts and suffice it to say…no one seems to understand: 1. How a compound unity has more than one person in it, hence one can be the father of the other.  The 'other' does not need to be the 'father' of himself. 2. A compound unity is both plural AND singular depending on if one is emphasizing the unity or the persons within the unity. 3. A compound unity can speak and act as one and therefore Jehovah speaks with one voice and acts as one person.  The church is meant to speak with one voice too. Rom 15:6 so that with one mind and one voice you might glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus, the Messiah.

First off, if a compound unity was what God is, then surely there would be some kind of teaching in scripture regarding this.

But what does scripture teach?

God is Spirit. (Note: not spirits)
God is invisible (Note: Jesus is very visible)
God is a HIM (Note: Not THEM)
God sent his son (Note: God and Jesus didn't send THEIR son)
It is eternal life to know the only true God and the one who he sent (Note: not to know them both as the one true God)
The head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God (Note: when identifying these, the woman is not the man and Christ is not God)
Paul teaches that we are of Christ, and Christ is of God. (Note: just as we are not Christ, nor is he God)
Jesus is the vine and the Father is the gardener. (Note: a vine and a gardener are not one entity, but are certainly one in purpose)
Jesus is identified as the son of God (Note: the Father is not identified as the Father of God)
The revelation of Jesus Christ, was given to him by God (Note: Jesus did not give his own revelation in conjunction with the Father)
God loved the world that he gave his son (Note: God did not give God)

A lie is hard to keep consistently because it will conflict with many things.
A lie is easy to expose because it will not agree with truth.
A lie is a hard sell to those whose hearts are set on the truth.

However, lies are inevitable but:

Matthew 18:7
Woe unto the world because of offenses! for it must needs be that offenses come; but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh!

God is identified as a Father who is spirit, divine, and is love.
Now notice that these qualities are shared. The son existed with divine nature. Angels are spirits. We can participate in divine nature and we can love.
But the unique thing about God is not the qualities per se, but that he is the Father / Originator of these qualities.

Jesus, angels, and ourselves are recipients of these qualities of God.
That is why Jesus said, “why call me good, only God is good”.
These qualities were never meant to be confused with WHO God is (identifying God).

There is one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Simple as that and you can't change that truth.
You can choose to deceive yourself and others, but you cannot change that truth.

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 25 2011,17:58)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 25 2011,11:23) Hmmm…Let's see, 2 Corinthians was written by Paul, right.  So did he preach the unity of the Father and the Son? 2 Thess 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace, 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word. I find it interesting that although this passage has two persons listed as the subject, a compound subject, the verbs are all written in the singular form and not plural form as would normally apply to compound subjects.  This would show that Jesus and the Father act as one.  Hence, a compound unity. OR………………….. 2 Thess 2:16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father, (who has loved us and given us eternal comfort and good hope by grace), 17comfort and strengthen your hearts in every good work and word. It is like me saying, “May Kathi and Keith, the one who calls himself Worshipping Jesus, find understanding and truth.” See?  The part in between the commas does not refer to BOTH of you, but only to ONE of you.  And wording it like this would not alter all the other evidence that you and Keith are really TWO different people.  Although, I suppose that if one was needy enough, they could point to my wording here to suggest that you and Keith were a compound unity.   peace, mike

There is a little problem with your counter-example, Mike. You see the next verse ALSO has two verbs that are written in the singular

Time to back pedal?

Kathi

[mikeboll64]

Back pedal?  Never.  I will continue to learn and move forward.

You are correct and make a point that many scholars apparently overlooked.  Which then caused me bewilderment, and so forced me to research a little.

15Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

16Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

17Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

This is how virtually every Bible breaks the words into English sentences.  But check this:

Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, whether by letter from us, OR our Lord Jesus Christ himself.  And God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, MAY HE comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

I based this translation on the the Apostolic Bible Polyglot, and the understanding that the conjunction “de” can mean “or.

Take a look and see what you think.

mike

[Lightenup]

Mike,
That translation is in error.  The Lord Jesus Christ is written in the nominative case which means that it is a subject, not an object of a preposition that your translation would require.

Kathi

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2011,13:54)

Mike, You should hang out with some kindergartners…they usually get the idea that like begets like.  Ask them why they aren't a horse.  They might tell you that they are not a horse because they didn't come from a horse.  Ask them if their parents are human like they are.  I think they can teach you something in these regards, Mike.  Like begets like is rather elementary. Blessings, Kathi

Kathi,

Exactly! But inconsistencies and contradictions don't bother Mike. The great Christian logician and apologist Gordon H. Clark said, “A man will not believe contradictions unless he is insane.”

Mike is either insane or just too proud to admit that his theology is contradictory. If God begat Jesus, then Jesus is God's kind. This means that if Christ is an angel, then God is an angel.

It is elementary as you say.

Jack

[mikeboll64]

Jack,

Sometimes I think YOU are a kindergartner!

First of all, if Jesus has the “God nature” because of being begotten by God, then JESUS WAS BEGOTTEN BY GOD, and is NOT the God who begot him.

Secondly, an angel is a spirit being that is a messenger of God. Is Jesus a spirit being that is a messenger of God, Jack?

Is God the messenger of anyone? Ergo, God is NOT an angel, and Jesus IS.

You did make me laugh, talking about contradictions and such though.

Jack, do me a favor and read the prayer in Acts 4. Tell me who the “God” is that they prayed TO. You know, the God who created the heavens, the earth, and EVERYTHING in them. Then tell me who they prayed TO that God THROUGH.

Add 1 + 1 and see if you can come to the conclusion that if Jesus is NOT the God they prayed TO, then he has no choice but to be a part of the EVERYTHING in heaven and earth that God created.

How's THAT for a contradiction to YOUR doctrine?

mike

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 27 2011,11:35)

Mike is either insane or just too proud to admit that his theology is contradictory. If God begat Jesus, then Jesus is God's kind. This means that if Christ is an angel, then God is an angel.

KJ, angels are spirits and God is a spirit.

So angels are of God, they probably share his nature.

[Ed J]

Quote (Kangaroo Jack @ Aug. 27 2011,11:35)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2011,13:54) Mike, You should hang out with some kindergartners…they usually get the idea that like begets like.  Ask them why they aren't a horse.  They might tell you that they are not a horse because they didn't come from a horse.  Ask them if their parents are human like they are.  I think they can teach you something in these regards, Mike.  Like begets like is rather elementary. Blessings, Kathi Kathi, Exactly! But inconsistencies and contradictions don't bother Mike. The great Christian logician and apologist Gordon H. Clark said, “A man will not believe contradictions unless he is insane.” Mike is either insane or just too proud to admit that his theology is contradictory. If God begat Jesus, then Jesus is God's kind. This means that if Christ is an angel, then God is an angel. It is elementary as you say. Jack

Hi Jack,

What is the progeny of horse and a donkey?
Are you forgetting that Mary also begot Jesus?

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 26 2011,18:05)

Mike, That translation is in error.  The Lord Jesus Christ is written in the nominative case which means that it is a subject, not an object of a preposition that your translation would require. Kathi

Hi Kathi,

I'm looking into it.  But right now I have to take my boy swimming.  Do you have any idea how hot pool water is when the air temperature doesn't even go below 100 degrees at overnight?  

It's like swimming in hot bath water on a VERY hot day!  

But my boy is half human, half fish, and is happiest in the water.  Oh boy!

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