Ancient Syriac Documents

[shimmer]

WJ I'll have to get back to you I have run out of time.

[terraricca]

Quote (shimmer @ Aug. 17 2011,16:00)

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 15 2011,14:44) yes I did answer that question I do not believe ;I KNOW THAT GOD EXIST AND THAT HE HAS A SON CALLED JESUS CHRIST AND ALSO THE WORD OF GOD, AND I DO UNDERSTAND THAT GODS SPIRIT HIS HOLY AND TRUTH AND THAT I WILL NOT GO TO WORK AGAINST HIS HOLY TRUE SPIRIT OF TRUTH. this is the second time i answer your question Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2011,11:29) Hi All WJ asked Peirre… Do you believe in the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit? Perre said… Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 15 2011,15:40) WJ yes I did answer that question I do not believe… Peirre does this mean you do not believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit? It is just a yes or no question, there is no need to muddy it up with confusion. WJ Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2011,11:29) Mike The rest of his post is in the quote, so what are you talking about. I am merely highlighting what he said and asking him to clarify it. Do you understand his answer when he said “I do not believe” And then went to explain something that didn't make sense with his first few words. I did nothing wrong and I did not leave out his words in my quote. So I would expect as a moderator that you would have seen his answer and would mediate instead of attack and accuse me. WJ Where?

shimmer

who are you asking ?

Pierre

[terraricca]

WJ -Shimmer-princess

believing is not a true conviction right or is it ?

is their a difference by believing that something is true and knowing that what is true ?

Pierre

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2011,23:07)

Mike, Many can be called gods because someone or something is being worshiped.  That is not by God's design, he is against this.

Really Kathi?

Then why is His VERY FIRST commandment to not place any of the OTHER gods before Him?

And why does Jehovah Himself call Satan “the god of Ekron”?  (2 Kings 1:3, 6, 16)

Why did He talk of bringing judgment on the gods of Egypt – who themselves were able to match many of the signs Jehovah did through Moses?  (Ex 12:12)  

What Jehovah is against is us WORSHIPPING and SERVING AS GOD anyone else but Him alone.  He is well aware that other gods exist, Kathi.  In fact, He is the One who created these other gods and is the God OF these other gods – just like the scriptures say.  Of the MANY gods in heaven and on earth (1 Cor 8:5), Jehovah is the MOST HIGH God.  Jehovah is the ALMIGHY God.  Jehovah is the God OF the other gods.  Jehovah is the God who renders judgment upon the other gods.

You rail against me because I accept the TRUTH of the scriptures.  But it is YOU who worships someone other than the Most High God – not me. In fact, you openly declare your worship of TWO distinct gods.

Believing in the existence of other gods is not against any scriptural commandment.  In fact, I learned of those other gods through those very scriptures.

What IS against scriptural commandments is worshipping ANYONE or ANY THING other than OUR one God, THE FATHER.  (1 Cor 8:6, Matt 4:10)  That even includes His very own beloved Son, Kathi.

peace,
mike

[Lightenup]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 15 2011,20:04)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 14 2011,23:38) Mike, Quote Kathi, can you show me any SCRIPTURAL evidence, proof, or even an inkling that Satan is less than a real, bonafide god? ' Seriously, Mike, you think that satan is a real bonafide god now?  Wow, I'll bet your 'bonafide god' is ready to give you and the peanut gallery that follow you some party hats.  This is what happens to your bonafide god, Mike: …and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night — to the ages of the ages. (Rev. 20:10, Young's Literal Translation.) Does that sound like the party you want to go and take your buddies to? There are no created gods, Mike.  All that might go by the title 'gods' did not start out as 'gods' by nature.  They exalted themselves or were exalted in the minds of others but never created to be legitimate gods by our Creator.  Everything that God created was good. Hi Kathi, I'll take your post as, “NO Mike.  There is NO scripture in the entire Bible that would indicate that Satan was anything less that what he was called, both by Jehovah and by the Apostle Paul……………..a god.” Now, have you thought about the title “God MOST HIGH” yet?  If there was truly only ONE god in existence, why the title “God Most High“?  Or “God Almighty“?  Or “God of gods? You are missing a part of the scriptural puzzle here Kathi.  You won't be able to complete it without ALL the pieces we've been given.  (Check under your table.  Sometimes puzzle pieces fall to the floor unnoticed.   ) peace, mike

Mike,

There are no other legitimate gods/Gods than the compound unity called Jehovah.

Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.

I am not going further with this notion.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2011,08:12)

Do you understand his answer when he said “I do not believe”

Yes Keith.  I understood immediately that he was saying:

I don't BELIEVE or THINK it, but I KNOW it…………….

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 16 2011,08:12)

So I would expect as a moderator that you would have seen his answer and would mediate instead of attack and accuse me.

My job here is NOT to mediate between you and Pierre, Keith.  But part of my job is to warn people about clipping someone's words to make them seem ignorant or silly.

I did my job.  

peace,
mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2011,09:08)

Many here deny that Jehovah, our creator is both God AND Lord, two persons, even though they say that Jesus is the Son and Christ, they do not know that He is the Lord Almighty and so deny who He is as the Son.

Many here believe the scriptures, and form our understanding around them.  And since there is not one scripture that actually teaches what you've been claiming, there is no reason for those of us who follow the scriptures to believe what you believe.

Kathi, Jesus is not God Most High, but the Son OF that One.

He isn't God Almighty, but the anointed one OF that One.

I will proclaim Jesus as the Lord that my God appointed over heaven and earth.  But never as the God who appointed him.

Shimmer's post was right on. It is YOU and Keith and Jack who are making up unscriptural things.

mike

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2011,18:45)

There are no other legitimate gods/Gods than the compound unity called Jehovah.

Now if there was only an actual SCRIPTURE that supported EITHER of the two fantasies you just mentioned……………..  

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2011,18:45)

Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none.

Isaiah 43:10 NET
No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2011,18:45)

I am not going further with this notion.

That doesn't surprise me in the least.  Because I've known all along that the ONLY reason you and the other “Jesus is God” people don't want to accept the other gods mentioned in scripture, and why you make up phrases like “so-called gods” and “false gods” (phrases that aren't even IN the scriptures), is because you think that if you can call all of the other gods “illegitimate”, then you can make a stronger case for Jesus being THE God because he is called a god.  You guys know that none of us will go as far as to call Jesus a “false god”, so you think it is a shoe-in.

You're probably right when it comes to most people – as the growing number of Trinity believers will confirm.  But I'm not “most people”.  There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any scripture to suggest that Satan, or the gods of Egypt etc, were anything other than exactly what Jehovah Himself called them.

But go ahead and bail in the light of the overwhelming evidence AGAINST your position.  If you must do that to retain Jesus as your God, I hope that you at least KNOW that you're doing it.  

peace,
mike

[terraricca]

Quote (mikeboll64 @ Aug. 17 2011,19:24)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2011,18:45) There are no other legitimate gods/Gods than the compound unity called Jehovah. Now if there was only an actual SCRIPTURE that supported EITHER of the two fantasies you just mentioned……………..   Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2011,18:45) Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none. Isaiah 43:10 NET No god was formed before me, and none will outlive me. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 16 2011,18:45) I am not going further with this notion. That doesn't surprise me in the least.  Because I've known all along that the ONLY reason you and the other “Jesus is God” people don't want to accept the other gods mentioned in scripture, and why you make up phrases like “so-called gods” and “false gods” (phrases that aren't even IN the scriptures), is because you think that if you can call all of the other gods “illegitimate”, then you can make a stronger case for Jesus being THE God because he is called a god.  You guys know that none of us will go as far as to call Jesus a “false god”, so you think it is a shoe-in. You're probably right when it comes to most people – as the growing number of Trinity believers will confirm.  But I'm not “most people”.  There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any scripture to suggest that Satan, or the gods of Egypt etc, were anything other than exactly what Jehovah Himself called them. But go ahead and bail in the light of the overwhelming evidence AGAINST your position.  If you must do that to retain Jesus as your God, I hope that you at least KNOW that you're doing it.   peace, mike

Mike

well said

[Lightenup]

Mike,

Quote

There is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING in any scripture to suggest that Satan, or the gods of Egypt etc, were anything other than exactly what Jehovah Himself called them.

Jehovah had more scriptures for me to put up.

Deuteronomy 4:35 You were shown these things so that you might know that the Jehovah is God; besides him there is no other.

Deuteronomy 32:39 “See now that I myself am He! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Isaiah 44:6 “This is what the Jehovah says–Israel's King and Redeemer, the Jehovah Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid. Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago? You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me? No, there is no other Rock; I know not one.”

Isaiah 45:5 I am the Jehovah, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. I will strengthen you, though you have not acknowledged me,

Seems pretty clear that Jehovah is a compound unity since the Father and Son are both called God. Also, there are no others than Jehovah.

2 Thess 1:12 that the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and Lord Jesus Christ.

satan looses again.
Jehovah, the compound unity of the Father and the Son, wins again!

[mikeboll64]

Hi Kathi,

Now take all of the scriptures that say “besides me”, and translate them the same as the ones that say “apart from me”.

I agree 100% that APART FROM JEHOVAH, there IS no god.  Just like I agree 100% that APART FROM JEHOVAH, there IS no savior.

Yet, we know that Jehovah Himself SENT OTHER SAVIORS, right?  But APART FROM HIM, there could be none, right?

Just like APART FROM HIM, there could be no other gods.  Yet we KNOW there ARE other gods, because scriptures clearly say so, right?  But APART FROM HIM, there could be no others, right?

So you can pretend that those other gods are “false gods” and “so-called gods” until the cows come home.  But the fact will still remain that you are only pretending these things because you think it furthers your flawed, man-made doctrine.  

Now, if you don't mind, could you DIRECTLY address the post you have INDIRECTLY responded to?  (The fourth one down on the previous page.)  Could you show me SCRIPTURALLY where any of the things I posted there are incorrect?

Oh, and Kathi…………..Jesus is NOT Jehovah, the Most High God, but the Son OF that One.  

[shimmer]

Quote (terraricca @ Aug. 17 2011,11:20)

shimmer who are you asking ? Pierre

Terra,

It was to WJ:)

[Lightenup]

Mike,
It is quite clear that Jehovah is not the maker of these 'gods.'

Ezekial 16:17 You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you
made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them

Leviticus 18:21 “'Do not give any of your children to be sacrificed to Molech, for you must not profane the name of your God. I am the LORD.

Deuteronomy 9:4 After the LORD your God has driven them out before you, do not say to yourself, “The LORD has brought me here to take possession of this land because of my righteousness.” No, it is on account of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is going to drive them out before you.
Deuteronomy 9:5 It is not because of your righteousness or your integrity that you are going in to take possession of their land; but on account of the wickedness of these nations, the LORD your God will drive them out before you, to accomplish what he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Deuteronomy 12:30 and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, “How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.”

Deuteronomy 18:10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft,

Deuteronomy 20:18 Otherwise, they will teach you to follow all the detestable things they do in worshiping their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

2 Kings 16:3 He walked in the ways of the kings of Israel and even sacrificed his son in the fire, following the detestable ways of the nations the LORD had driven out before the Israelites.

2 Kings 17:15 They rejected his decrees and the covenant he had made with their fathers and the warnings he had given them. They followed worthless idols and themselves became worthless. They imitated the nations around them although the LORD had ordered them, “Do not do as they do,” and they did the things the LORD had forbidden them to do.

Psalm 106:37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.

Jeremiah 32:35 They built high places for Baal in the Valley of Ben Hinnom to sacrifice their sons and daughters to Molech, though I never commanded, nor did it enter my mind, that they should do such a detestable thing and so make Judah sin.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2011,03:57)

Mike, It is quite clear that Jehovah is not the maker of these 'gods.'

Why? Because people worshipped these gods in ways that were detestable to Jehovah?

Satan and a third of the angels have rebelled against Jehovah, right? Does that mean Jehovah didn't MAKE Satan and those angels? Does it mean that He is not their Father?

You and Keith seem to think that a “bad son” is not really a son. And I, for the life of me can't figure out where you ever came to this understanding.

You acknowledge that Jesus was the god who was with THE God in John 1:1. So you're okay with Jesus being A god who is NOT the Father because Jesus is “good”.

But when Satan is called a god by both Paul AND Jehovah Himself, you don't want to believe it because Satan is “bad”.

Kathi, the bottom line is that Jehovah DID make Satan. And Satan IS a god according to scripture. Jehovah DID make Jesus. And Jesus IS a god according to scripture. One follows the Most High God – and one doesn't. But that doesn't change the facts that they are both gods, both sons of God, and God is the Father and Maker of both of them.

Ps 7:17 Young's Literal Translation
I thank Jehovah, According to His righteousness, And praise the name of Jehovah Most High!

Kathi, who is “Jehovah Most High”? And who is this One's Son?

mike

[Lightenup]

Mikeboll64

Quote

You acknowledge that Jesus was the god who was with THE God in John 1:1. So you're okay with Jesus being A god who is NOT the Father because Jesus is “good”.

No way, that is not what I acknowledge. A small g…where have I ever said that??

Jehovah Most High is the Father and the Son. There is Jehovah Most High Father, Jehovah as the only begotten Son, Jehovah Most High Father and Son unity. Depends on context.

Jehovah made angels, one of those angels exalted himself as a god. Jehovah did not make him a god, He made him an angel.

I never said that he is not called a god, however, that no way means that he was made to be a god. You will never find a scripture that backs that mikemade doctrine up.

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2011,19:36)

Jehovah Most High is the Father and the Son.  There is Jehovah Most High Father, Jehovah as the only begotten Son, Jehovah Most High Father and Son unity.  Depends on context.

So, no “Jehovah Most High Son“?  Why not?  And if Jesus is the SON OF Jehovah, the Most High God, then how can he BE Jehovah Most High God at any time?  Sorry Charlie, but “context” won't fix this one.  Unless you go as far as to claim that we have TWO MOST HIGH GODS.  The sad thing is that I can see you totally forgetting what the word MOST means and claiming we DO have TWO MOST High Gods.  Because making totally nonsensical and unscriptural claims seems to be your preference these days.

Kathi, it has been amazing and amusing to watch how you've changed your views and added more unscriptural claims into the mix as this “Two Jehovahs” discussion has progressed.  At first, wasn't it only the Father who was “Most High”?    

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2011,19:36)

I never said that he is not called a god, however, that no way means that he was made to be a god.  You will never find a scripture that backs that mikemade doctrine up.

2 Kings 1:16
He told the king, “This is what the LORD says: Is it because there is no God in Israel for you to consult that you have sent messengers to consult Baal-Zebub, the god of Ekron? Because you have done this, you will never leave the bed you are lying on. You will certainly die!”

Can you show me the part where Satan is called a “false god” or a “self-made god” or a “so-called god” by Jehovah in this passage?  Because it seems to me that Jehovah simply calls him “the god of Ekron”.

Exodus 12:12
“On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn—both men and animals—and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the LORD.

Can you show me where Jehovah called these the “false gods” of Egypt?  Could you tell me how Jehovah could “bring judgment” on an inanimate object such as an idol?  Or how said idol could turn a staff into a living snake, turn water into blood, or produce living frogs out of thin air?

The “mikemade” doctrine comes straight out of the scriptures, Kathi……..unlike the “kathimade” doctrine.

Please actually ADDRESS these points this time.  Tell me how Jehovah called them gods, but they weren't really gods.  If they weren't, then why did He say they were?  Did God LIE?

Mikeboll 64

[Lightenup]

Mike,
Where in scriptures does it specifically say that God created the god satan or the god of Ekron, or the gods of Egypt.

Also, can you think of a higher Son than the Only Begotten Son? If not, that would make the Only Begotten Son the Most High Son or the Most High Only Begotten Son (same thing) wouldn't it?

Quote

Please actually ADDRESS these points this time. Tell me how Jehovah called them gods, but they weren't really gods. If they weren't, then why did He say they were? Did God LIE?

They were gods…not because they started out that way but because they fell from their created position by their own disobedience. The demons were worshiped as gods. The 'gods' were not created as demon gods, they were created as angels.

Psalm 106:37 They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons.

28“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

See how Jesus uses the word 'demons?' God did not make demons, God made angels who by their disobedience fell from heaven to become demons. Just because they are called demons, does not mean that they were created to be that. Same as 'gods' of any type…all gods that are worshiped are evil and adversaries to the Father and the Son, Jehovah.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Mike,
I am not going to post in the debates for a while…I have a big kitchen design and wedding and school stuff coming up. I will pick back up with this at a later time

Peace,
Kathi

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 15 2011,23:07)

Mike, Many can be called gods because someone or something is being worshiped.  That is not by God's design, he is against this.

Explain,
“ye are gods, you are all sons of the Most High God”.
And:
“All who worship images are put to shame, those who boast in idols–worship him, all you gods!”

[mikeboll64]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2011,20:46)

Mike, Where in scriptures does it specifically say that God created the god satan or the god of Ekron, or the gods of Egypt.

God created everything in heaven and on earth.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2011,20:46)

Also, can you think of a higher Son than the Only Begotten Son?

Ah, but Jehovah is called the Most High GOD.  And Jesus is called the Son OF the Most High God.  I agree that would make Jesus the Most High of all of the SONS in heaven and on earth.  It does NOT, however, make him the Most High GOD that he is the SON of.  That's just silly talk.  

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2011,20:46)

They were gods…not because they started out that way…………..

Kathi, tell me if you find fault or flaw in the following:

“Elohim” referred to many mighty beings, some of them were even mankind.

“Theos” had the same “mighty being” meaning, but excluded mankind, and was limited to “mighty SPIRIT beings”.

Today, “God” generally has the meaning of “The ONE AND ONLY Omniscient Creator of All Things”.

These are the facts of the matter.  The problem arises when people with TODAY'S understanding of “God” use that understanding to interpret the scriptures.  Today's understanding causes much confusion, denial, and additions in order to conform the scriptures around our current understanding of “God”.

That's not how one should interpret the scriptures.  If you are reading “el” or “elohim” in the Hebrew Scriptures, then be prepared for “god” to refer to Jehovah, one of his angels, a demon, or even a human being.  And accept it for what it is and how they used the word back then.  Don't start pretending that the gods of Egypt are “non-gods”, just because that fits better with our current understanding of “God”.

If reading “theos” in the Greek scriptures, then be prepared for that word to refer to angels, demons, Satan, Jesus, AND God Himself.  And when it refers to someone other than Jehovah, don't start trying to add the words “so-called” and “false” into the scriptures when those words are not there.  That is a sure sign of a 21st century person trying to make an ancient culture's definition of god fit into ours.  But THEY did not live in the 21st century, and therefore their definition does NOT match ours.  Let's not try to force the wrong puzzle piece where it doesn't belong.

In other words, we can't let our 21st century understanding of “ONE AND ONLY CREATOR” get in the way of the scriptures.  Because when the writers of scripture said “god”, they didn't necessarily mean Jehovah.  And the fact that they didn't necessarily mean Jehovah doesn't necessarily mean that the god they mentioned was some kind of “non-god”.

When Paul called Satan the god of this age, he meant exactly what he said.  He meant that Satan is a very powerful spirit being who holds much sway over the course of nature, our world in general, and the lives of human beings.  He did not mean that Satan was HIS own god, or that he worshipped him, or that he was as powerful as the God OF gods.  But he DID mean what he said when he called him a god.  

Even the demons called Jesus the Son of the Most High God.  That is indirect evidence that they, like Paul, understood that there are MANY gods, both in heaven and on earth; and that Jehovah is the Most High of all of these gods.

Kathi, I know why you don't want this to be the way it is.  I know that if you admit what the scriptures truly teach, then your precious Jesus becomes just one of the many gods that Jehovah is the God OF.  And you don't want that.  You don't want Jesus and Satan both being gods who are not God Almighty.  You want to bury your head in the sand, and blow off Satan as a god altogether – or call him a “so-called god” or a “false god” – just so that when Jesus is called a god, it will HAVE TO MEAN that he is “The ONE AND ONLY Omniscient Creator of All Things”.

But that is just pretending on your part.  The fact is that there are many gods and many lords, both in heaven and on earth.  There is only ONE God Most High.  That One is the God OF gods and has a SON named Jesus.  And Jesus and Satan are just two of the many gods that fall into the category of “gods that Jehovah is the God OF”.  That's why Jesus still calls Jehovah “my God”……………..because although Jesus himself is a god, Jehovah is still the God OF him.

This is the truth, whether you want to believe it or not.

Enjoy designing the kitchen.  Is it your own, or are you going to design it for someone else?  And have fun at the wedding.  Don't throw rice, okay?  

peace,
mike

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