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Quote (princess @ July 30 2011,23:26) T, You are not asking me to sort out that mess are you? Have some mercy T.
princessNo,No I just show you what she believes and preach,
Pierre
Good, I remembered Nick discussing LU's faith at one time. searched and found the thread,
ref: BinityTake care T.
Quote (princess @ July 31 2011,09:21) Good, I remembered Nick discussing LU's faith at one time. searched and found the thread,
ref: BinityTake care T.
princessthanks ,no changes ,Kathi is the same
Pierre
Back to the topic of the ancient historical Syriac documents…
Preaching of the apostle ThaddAeus at Edessa; Copy of five letters.
After the ascension of our Saviour, the Apostle Thomas, one of the twelve, sent one of the seventy-six disciples, Thaddaeus, to the city of Edessa to heal Abgar and to preach the Gospel, according to the word of the Lord. Thaddaeus came to the house of Tobias, a Jewish prince, who is said to have been of the race of the Pacradouni. Tobias, having left Archam, did not abjure Judaism with the rest of his relatives, but followed its laws up to the moment when he believed in Christ. Soon the name of Thaddaeus spreads through the whole town. Abgar, on learning of his arrival, said: “This is indeed he concerning whom Jesus wrote to me; “and immediately Abgar sent for the apostle. When Thaddaeus entered, a marvellous appearance presented itself to the eyes of Abgar in the countenance of the apostle; the king having risen from his throne, fell on his face to the earth, and prostrated himself before Thaddaeus. This spectacle greatly surprised all the princes who were present, for they were ignorant of the fact of the vision. “Art thou really,” said Abgar to Thaddaeus, “art thou the disciple of the ever-blessed Jesus? Art thou he whom He promised to send to me, and canst thou heal my maladies? “”Yes,” answered Thaddaeus; “if thou believest in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, the desires of thy heart shall be granted.” “I have believed in Jesus,” said Abgar, “I have believed in His Father; therefore I wished to go at the head of my troops to destroy the Jews who have crucified Jesus, had I not been prevented by reason of the power of the Romans.”
Thenceforth Thaddaeus began to preach the Gospel to the king and his town; laying his hands upon Abgar, he cured him; he cured also a man with gout, Abdu, a prince of the town, much honoured in all the king's house. He also heated all the sick and infirm people in the town, and all believed in Jesus Christ. Abgar was baptized, and all the town with him, and the temples of the false gods were closed, and all the statues of idols that were placed on the altars and columns were hidden by being covered with reeds. Abgar did not compel any one to embrace the faith yet from day to day the number of the believers was multiplied.
The Apostle Thaddaeus baptizes a manufacturer of silk head-dresses, called Attaeus, consecrates him, appoints him to minister at Edessa, and leaves him with the king instead of himself. Thaddaeus, after having received letters patent from Abgar, who wished that all should listen to the Gospel of Christ, went to find Sanadroug, son of Abgar's sister, whom this prince had appointed over the country and over the army. Abgar was pleased to write to the Emperor Tiberius a letter in these words:-
Here Abgar speaks of making a command to worship Christ as the true God:
Abgar's letter to Tiberius.
“Abgar, king of Armenia, to my Lord Tiberius, emperor of the Romans, greeting:-
“I know that nothing is unknown to your Majesty, but, as your friend, I would make you better acquainted with the facts by writing. The Jews who dwell in the cantons of Palestine have crucified Jesus: Jesus without sin, Jesus after so many acts of kindness, so many wonders and miracles wrought for their good, even to the raising of the dead. Be assured that these are not the effects of the power of a simple mortal, but of God. During the time that they were crucifying Him, the sun was darkened, the earth was moved, shaken; Jesus Himself, three days afterwards, rose from the dead and appeared to many. Now, everywhere, His name alone, invoked by His disciples, produces the greatest miracles: what has happened to myself is the most evident proof of it. Your august Majesty knows henceforth what ought to be done in future with respect to the Jewish nation, which has committed this crime; your Majesty knows whether a command should not be published through the whole universe to worship Christ as the true God. Safety and health.”
This letter tells us that Jesus, after His resurrection was acknowledged by many to be God.:
Answer from Tiberius to Abgar's letter.
“Tiberius, emperor of the Romans, to Abgar, king of the Armenians, greeting:-
“Your kind letter has been read to me, and I wish that thanks should be given to you from me. Though we had already heard several persons relate these facts, Pilate has officially informed us of the miracles of Jesus. He has certified to us that after His resurrection from the dead He was acknowledged by many to be God. Therefore I myself also wished to do what you propose; but, as it is the custom of the Romans not to admit a god merely by the command of the sovereign, but only when the admission has been discussed and examined in full senate, I proposed the affair to the senate, and they rejected it with contempt, doubtless because it had not been considered by them first. But we have commanded all those whom Jesus suits, to receive him amongst the gods. We have threatened with death any one who shall speak evil of the Christians. As to the Jewish nation which has dared to crucify Jesus, who, as I hear, far from deserving the cross and death, was worthy of honour, worthy of the adoration of men-when I am free from the war with rebellious Spain, I will examine into the matter, and will treat the Jews as they deserve.”
Here Abgar understands Jesus as the creator of fire and water:
“Abgar, king of the Armenians, to my son Nerseh, greeting:-
“I have received your letter and acknowledgments. I have released Beroze from his chains, and have pardoned his offences: if this pleases you, give him the government of Nineveh. But as to what you write to me about sending you the physician who works miracles and preaches another God superior to fire and water, that you may see and hear him, I say to you: he was not a physician according to the art of men; he was a disciple of the Son of God, Creator of fire and water: he has been appointed and sent to the countries of Armenia. But one of his principal companions, named Simon, is sent into the countries of Persia. Seek for him, and you will hear him, you as well as your father Ardaches. He will heal all your diseases and will show you the way of life.”
from here: http://www.studylight.org/his….152.htm
Well, it seems that Thaddaeus, a disciple of Jesus, knew that Jesus was not God Himself, but the Son OF God.
It seems as if Abgar also believed the same, since he believed both in Christ AND in his Father.
I don't quite follow “THE true God” part, and assume it is really A true god, since I also assume that the Armenians had many gods.
The part where Tiberius calls Jesus “God”, I am sure it is really “a god”, for he later says, “it is the custom of the Romans not to admit a god merely by the command of the sovereign”. He also says, “But we have commanded all those whom Jesus suits, to receive him amongst the gods.”
And the “Creator of fire” part could easily be understood to be saying that Jesus is the Son OF the Creator of fire from the wording.
Kathi, I don't know why you try so hard to make Jesus God. You do realize he is the Son of God, right? And the one God anointed, right? And a servant of his God, right?
I couldn't help but notice from the link Princess posted that you USED TO “disagree with the Trinitarians on some things in the doctrine like the co-equal and co-eternal terms”. These are things you now believe in. What happened? You USED TO believe that Jesus was literally begotten by his God and began his existence at that time, but now you've imagined he somehow had an existence inside his God until his God brought him out. You USED TO believe the Father was the Almighty one, and Jesus was lessor to Him.
A lot of the things you USED TO believe were scriptural, Kathi. There is hardly a thing you post about anymore that has an ounce of scriptural truth to it. Reading the stuff you now post makes me feel like I'm watching a friend slowly go insane.
I pray that God sends you understanding and a spirit to guide you back to the path of scriptural truth,
mikeMike,
Those in the Syriac documents that believed in Jesus believed that He was the creator, that He was God because He was the Son of God, and that He and the Father were to be worshipped. They believed in a Godhead. They accepted that the Father and the Son were part of the Godhead. They believed in the existence of the Holy Spirit from God.As far as what I believed and what I now believe…the basis is still the same. I have always believed that Jesus was deity with an equal nature to His Father. I used to not understand how He could be eternal and a Son but now I do understand how that is possible although I don't think we can know the specific details. I believe the Father was always Almighty because He always had a Son within Him and together they created and together they eternally save. They are a unity and within the unity there is delegation and different positions, one greater than the other as far as their positions but equal in power and wisdom, they also have different roles to accomplish a single purpose. The Spirit is the inner person of each…united to dwell within believers.
So, the difference between now and when I came here is that I understand eternally begotten to mean that He was begotten during eternity and begotten from within the Father as a Son, not as an attribute. I used to think that the term 'eternally begotten' meant that He was continually being begotten or something like that which didn't seem right to me. When I got a grasp on what many early church father's thought, then I was able to understand that it just means that He was begotten during eternity and existed in some form within the Father before His begettal from within the Father.
I have been believing that God begat God from the beginning. I have also been saying that they are united from the beginning. I agree with most of the early church father's and consider myself an early trinitarian…one who believes and considers the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit as one in unity as a supreme deity. I do not understand that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person but instead He is the inner person of the Father and Son and that is why I say 'early trinitarian' because the Spirit wasn't defined as a person till later on.
Can you tell me why a compound unity can't have one greater and one lessor within it? Can you tell me why a compound unity can't have one that gives things to another?
Kathi
Like I said, there is hardly anything you post these days that has an ounce of scriptural truth to it. Your whole last post is proof of this.
They believed he was God because he was the Son of God?
Oh brother. Even a kindergartner could tell you the serious problem with that statement.
Take care Kathi,
mikeMike,
You should hang out with some kindergartners…they usually get the idea that like begets like. Ask them why they aren't a horse. They might tell you that they are not a horse because they didn't come from a horse. Ask them if their parents are human like they are. I think they can teach you something in these regards, Mike. Like begets like is rather elementary.Blessings,
KathiKathi,
Tis a good analogy in regards to how children accept such matters, however when one is a child they think like a child, when one becomes an adult they put away their childish ways (well some), and kindergartens also know how to count objects/subjects, so yes even a child can count one god, two gods, I would even go as far as they can count to three.
And to say to a child that god is a person, would be contradicting oneself, how can a god be a person when they are a god. So how do teach a child that a human begets a human, gods beget gods and then explain your belief to them, for is it not written that if anyone denies jesus not coming in the flesh (human) is of the anti christ.
Really, I would love to see your outline on this teaching to a child. by my understanding they are precious and I would not want that milestone around my neck, however, some woman do not have good taste in jewelry.
Princess,
Normally I would be happy to give an answer but you have mocked nearly everything I have written…sorry, but I will save that time to form an answer to those who are respectful to me.Sincerely,
KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 11 2011,20:54) Mike,
You should hang out with some kindergartners…they usually get the idea that like begets like. Ask them why they aren't a horse. They might tell you that they are not a horse because they didn't come from a horse. Ask them if their parents are human like they are. I think they can teach you something in these regards, Mike. Like begets like is rather elementary.Blessings,
Kathi
Kathiis God a man ?
Pierre
No Pierre, God is not a man, He is a God. His Son is also, like the one who beget Him, a God and He did humble Himself and became a man. Together they form one supreme deity as Jehovah, the God of gods and the Lord of lords.
Kathi
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 12 2011,16:24) No Pierre, God is not a man, He is a God. His Son is also, like the one who beget Him, a God and He did humble Himself and became a man. Together they form one supreme deity as Jehovah, the God of gods and the Lord of lords. Kathi
Kathiyou have a scripture to that effect ?
God is a tittle the father is also a tittle but this tittle seems to me higher than the tittle of Son, if they are closer to each other than father and son ?
but all who submit to God the father are closer than all others
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 12 2011,17:28) Pierre,
Which part do you need scripture for?Kathi
KathiTogether they form one supreme deity as Jehovah < this one
Pierre
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 10 2011,20:54) Ask them if their parents are human like they are. I think they can teach you something in these regards, Mike. Like begets like is rather elementary.
Hello friend,I'm sure that most of them would understand that a Spirit Being would beget a spirit being, Kathi. Because God is a Spirit Being, and so is the Son He begot. So far you, me, AND the kindergartners would be in agreement.
But let's see who they side with when you start telling them that they have existed as long as their father has.
Or that they and their father together are called a “HE” and a “HIM” instead of a “THEY” and a “THEM”.
Or that they are the same exact BEING as their father.
Kathi, you are right that like begets like. But BEING doesn't ever beget SAME EXACT BEING. So God, a Spirit Being would naturally beget a spirit being. But God would never beget the same exact Being as He is. The very thought of it is simply preposterous.
peace,
mikeQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 12 2011,07:48) Princess,
Normally I would be happy to give an answer but you have mocked nearly everything I have written…sorry, but I will save that time to form an answer to those who are respectful to me.Sincerely,
Kathi
But it's ok if men do? If a man disagrees with you or mocks your belief, you post back to them. Princess asked you a question, and you call it mocking. If I remember rightly, it was you who mocked Princess, a long time back. So, this isn't a new thing is it? No it is not. Do you want me to go on further, or do you want to put a lid on it?Pierre,
Third post down.Mike ol' buddy,
you said:
Quote I'm sure that most of them would understand that a Spirit Being would beget a spirit being, Kathi. Because God is a Spirit Being, and so is the Son He begot. So far you, me, AND the kindergartners would be in agreement.
God is a God spirit being…angels are angel spirit beings…the Son of God is a God spirit being. One God spirit being begat another God spirit being. One God spirit being did not begat Himself but another God spirit being.I don't think that kindergartners would have too hard of a time understanding the unity of the Father and the Son. Many of them understand the idea of family as a unity. The idea of two becoming one describes their parents but may be hard for them to understand since so many of their parents split up, unfortunately.
A compound unity is referred to as singular or plural, if it is easier for the unity to be presented as 'we' and 'they' then it is easy enough to find that language in the NT.
Your friend,
Kathi
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