- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (david @ Nov. 12 2008,14:26) Quote JESUS IS CALLED THE “FIRST AND THE LAST” IN A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WAY AND FOR COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REASONS THAN JEHOVAH IS CALLED THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE FIRST AND LAST. AND, WHAT'S MORE, THE CONTEXT, AND THE REST OF THE BIBLE IS ASTOUNDINGLY CLEAR ON WHY BOTH JESUS AND GOD ARE FIRST AND LAST IN COMPLETELY DIFFERENT RESPECTS. Anyone disagree?
I should rephrase this:
Does anyone disagree who can back it up with scriptural support?
In Isaiah 44:6 Jehovah calls Himself the King of Israel and Israel's blood relative-redeemer (or goel). Then He says, “I am the first and the last.”In context the statement “first and last” would mean that Jehovah was Israel's “first and last” King and “first and last” blood relative-redeemer. Yet Jesus was also Israel's King and blood relative-redeemer (or goel). Therefore, Jehovah was confused when He said that He was the last King and the last blood relative-redeemer.
thinker
Hi TT,
So you agree Jesus was not his own God and own Father?
That should clear some of your confusion.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,09:09) Hi TT,
So you agree Jesus was not his own God and own Father?
That should clear some of your confusion.
Jehovah said that He was the “first and the last” King of Israel and blood relative-redeemer. Jesus also was the King of Israel and her blood relative redeemer. Either Jesus was speaking or Jehovah was confused when He said that He was the last King of Israel and last blood relative-redeemer.thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,09:26) Hi TT,
God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself.
Did you think they were the same being?
It doesn't matter Nick. If Jesus was the King of Israel and also her blood relative-redeemer then Jehovah was mistaken when He said that He was the last. He may have been the first. But He was not the last.thinker
Isaiah 44:6(NIV) reads:
Quote [ The LORD, Not Idols ] “This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
First and Last, Alpha and Omega simply mean the only one. Jesus is the only Son of God and God is the only God.
It is really simple so why complicate it.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2009,17:33) Isaiah 44:6(NIV) reads: Quote [ The LORD, Not Idols ] “This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
First and Last, Alpha and Omega simply mean the only one. Jesus is the only Son of God and God is the only God.
It is really simple so why complicate it.
Ah…but this is an example of New Covenant revelation hidden in the Old Covenant. Or you could look at it as God's progressive revelation of Himself to mankind.At any rate, our Lord Jesus uses this language that to a Hebrew mind immediately brings Isaiah 44:6 to mind.
It was common in Hebrew synagogues and rabbinical teaching to reference the Hebrew Scripture passage you were referring to by quoting one familiar line of it.
No…what would be confusing would be for Jesus to use this but not be God. But of course it isn't…confusing that is.
Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2009,17:33) Isaiah 44:6(NIV) reads: Quote [ The LORD, Not Idols ] “This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
First and Last, Alpha and Omega simply mean the only one. Jesus is the only Son of God and God is the only God.
It is really simple so why complicate it.
Kerwin,
You establish what I have said. If Jesus was not YHWH then YHWH was not the only King of Israel and blood relative-redeemer. In fact, Jesus is the only redeemer who was Israel's blood relative. The Father does not fit the bill.thinker
Hi TT,
Your thinking is not very deep but rather facile.
You do not even know of God and His son and still confuse them.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 23 2009,20:12) Hi TT,
Your thinking is not very deep but rather facile.
You do not even know of God and His son and still confuse them.
So the Father took on flesh and became Israel's blood relative?
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 23 2009,15:10) Quote (kerwin @ Sep. 23 2009,17:33) Isaiah 44:6(NIV) reads: Quote [ The LORD, Not Idols ] “This is what the LORD says— Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
First and Last, Alpha and Omega simply mean the only one. Jesus is the only Son of God and God is the only God.
It is really simple so why complicate it.
Kerwin,
You establish what I have said. If Jesus was not YHWH then YHWH was not the only King of Israel and blood relative-redeemer. In fact, Jesus is the only redeemer who was Israel's blood relative. The Father does not fit the bill.thinker
I believe you are speaking about a line of reasoning from another thread I have not been following.Jesus is the promised son that sits on the throne of David. I cannot remember anywhere where scripture states he sits on YHWH's throne though the Kingdom of God has certainly expanded from what David ruled.
Kerwin said:
Quote Jesus is the promised son that sits on the throne of David. I cannot remember anywhere where scripture states he sits on YHWH's throne though the Kingdom of God has certainly expanded from what David ruled. Kerwin,
David's throne was YHWH's throne,1 Kings 2:10-12 (King James Version):
“So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.
Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.1 Chronicles 29:23 (King James Version):
Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD [YHWH] as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Sep. 24 2009,02:50) Kerwin said: Quote Jesus is the promised son that sits on the throne of David. I cannot remember anywhere where scripture states he sits on YHWH's throne though the Kingdom of God has certainly expanded from what David ruled. Kerwin,
David's throne was YHWH's throne,1 Kings 2:10-12 (King James Version):
“So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.
Then sat Solomon upon the throne of David his father; and his kingdom was established greatly.1 Chronicles 29:23 (King James Version):
Then Solomon sat on the throne of the LORD [YHWH] as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.
thinker
Hi thethinker:The anointed of God sit on the throne of YHWH because they are His represtatives and authority to and over His people.
It is God that they are obeying:
Quote Rev 7:10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. Love in Christ,
Marty
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
