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Hi Kenrch,
Regarding Nick's sharing of the PM sent to him, I think in this case Nick was right to share it for the following reasons (and please don't think I am taking sides. I consider both H & Nick as my brothers and friends):
1. The content of the PM is about Nick (Not H), thus Nick's prerogative to do with it what he wants.
2. H said that it was out of regard to Nick he PM'd him rather than publicize the content, so again, this gives Nick the prerogative to do what he wants with the unfavorable information about himself.
3. In this case, given the content of the PM, I side with Nick's handling of it. If we don't bring such things to light we run the risk of being under the power of others or living in fear, which for both parties' sake, is uncalled for.
4. On the other hand, the issue about which H speaks can also now be addressed as among brethren, as is being done now.
Having said all that, I do respect and acknowledge your concerns for confidentiality and privacy for the most part.
T8,
By not bringing the problem to your attention the time it happened was my fault. If you truely were unaware of Nick lying and editing to change it as to not look as if he lied, then you cannot be held accountable for anything. I on the other hand can be held accountable for not informing you then. For I let it go and then when Nick pulled this stunt with posting my PM on the forum, I used it to bring this out and I should have not. I should have resolved the issue at the time of the occurance, but I knew you and he were friends and I was not confident as to how your reaction would be as to me catching him in a lie. I did not know if you would ban me from the group. This was my greatest fear and I believed at the time, it was best to let the matter pass until a more opertune time after I was sure I had gained your confidence in me as one who stands on God's Word. But now, I still am unsure I have gained that confidence. I was beginning to think you were of the same Spirit, for you were understanding things that those of the same Spirit of God will understand.
As for if there was things changed, edited, like I said, I can produce witness. Yet, is not my word enough, considering with what I have posted and how it can not be torn down. Anyway, what it comes down to t8 is your continued defense of a friend who is not standing steadfast in the faith by believing every word that proceeds from him or by believing those who he has wronged. If he is telling you he has not lied on this forum, he is lying to you also. And if he is lying to you also, is he really your friend? He is hurting your credibility as moderator by defending him. I suggest you go back and reread all my threads. You will find the answers there. I will list the ones that the occurances most likely would have been in at the bottom of the page.
As for him posting my PM, you are right, it matters not. For the intention given was as I said, that he be careful as to not lie again. But his flesh urged him to do as he did and post it. This opened the door to airing out all that he did wrong and also proved to all he cannot be trusted. The PM was innocent enough, but the end result worked for the glory of the Lord. Not that this happened, but that one who hinders the faith is exposed.
A spirit, once dead, reborn
3 BAPTISMSDear Cubes,
I agree with you completely. When I found out that Nick had posted the PM on the forum, please believe me that anger was the furthest thing in my heart. I knew that by him doing what he did revealed his true constitution to all. I knew if anything, he hurt himself. This has been coming to a head for some time and as much as we tried to bring him to the ways of the Lord, his rebellious nature prevented him from seeing anything other then what his flesh revealed. We have prayed and fasted with tears and sorrowed hearts in hoping he would come to be ask Christ into his life, but he believes that he has already done so, but yet, his fruits do not bear the evidence that he is of the same Spirit.
I have often times told him that I love him, and that I love t8. The amazing thing is I can put my hand on God's Holy Word and testify that my love is faithful and true. Not once can I recall has either shown brotherly love. Now, why not, I can not say, for I do not know their hearts, only God knows their hearts. Yet, I can testify of my heart, and it is the love of Christ that is my testiment and how I can say with all earnest that I have love for them both. I can say that there are others whom I have no doubt of their love and that it comes from above.
I regret that this has had to happen, but it was inevitable. And let all decide in their own hearts who is of truth and who is not. If I have unknowingly posted anything that is not of truth, and it can be proven beyond all doubt it is not of truth, I will repent before all. I pray that the same goes for all who truely seek the face of God. For how can one be forgiven if he does not first repent?
Hi H,
What you understand as love seems to differ from what others here call love.
Constant personal attacks mixed with threats, insinuations and condemnations seems to bear little resemblance to the ways of the Master.Nick, can you put your hand on the bible and say you love me? Have you prayed even one prayer for me? Have you fasted for me? Have you shed one tear for me?
H, I tried to reply to your PM three times. Maybe this will work:
Part of the problem is, H, I don't really know what Nick did or didn't do.
Yes, he posted your PM, but as a few have stated, you said you only kept it private for Nick's sake. So, while he maybe shouldn't have done that, it seems you were only helping Nick out by keeping it private. Nick didn't want the help. So, I don't really see that as a big issue.
The other thing: What Nick actually did? I don't know what Nick did? Did he remove his posts? Did he remove your posts?
I have never really used the editing, except once to try it out. I don't know, maybe a person can remove their whole post. But it would still be clear that it was removed, wouldn't it? I know very little about this matter. I don't know the conversation you were having or where you were having it. I don't know the “lie” that Nick was supposed to have tried to hide.
As t8 keeps saying, where is the sin? If you show us, or pershpas just show Nick in another PM, then at least he can't keep saying that he doesn't know what you are talking about. Remember, Nick is getting older. I think he's the high 60's. He may forget. He's imperfect.
As others have said, misunderstanding are easier on here. Much easier.david
David, there is a difference between misunderstanding and blatant lying. I caught him in a lie, and he knows I did. He would not admit it. And eventually the conversation was changed. Now, if not guilty, why would one go and change text?
As I said, I have a witness as to the changing of text, but I don't want to involve the person. I would rather drop the entire issue. For the constitution of this man is out in the open and it is more then obvious he cannot be trusted. That in itself is punishment enough.As for his age, that is more the reason he should get saved.
Thank you for your rely David.
Hi H,
Since I have never ever changed any posts form anyone else I would welcome the proof of this accusation and the evidence from your witness.
BTW if you are unable to show any such proof as I know you will not can I expect an apology for at least this false accusation?Matt 5
“22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. “To heiscomingintheclouds.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Sep. 20 2006,17:37) T8, By not bringing the problem to your attention the time it happened was my fault. If you truely were unaware of Nick lying and editing to change it as to not look as if he lied, then you cannot be held accountable for anything. I on the other hand can be held accountable for not informing you then. For I let it go and then when Nick pulled this stunt with posting my PM on the forum, I used it to bring this out and I should have not. I should have resolved the issue at the time of the occurance, but I knew you and he were friends and I was not confident as to how your reaction would be as to me catching him in a lie. I did not know if you would ban me from the group. This was my greatest fear and I believed at the time, it was best to let the matter pass until a more opertune time after I was sure I had gained your confidence in me as one who stands on God's Word. But now, I still am unsure I have gained that confidence. I was beginning to think you were of the same Spirit, for you were understanding things that those of the same Spirit of God will understand.
As for if there was things changed, edited, like I said, I can produce witness. Yet, is not my word enough, considering with what I have posted and how it can not be torn down. Anyway, what it comes down to t8 is your continued defense of a friend who is not standing steadfast in the faith by believing every word that proceeds from him or by believing those who he has wronged. If he is telling you he has not lied on this forum, he is lying to you also. And if he is lying to you also, is he really your friend? He is hurting your credibility as moderator by defending him. I suggest you go back and reread all my threads. You will find the answers there. I will list the ones that the occurances most likely would have been in at the bottom of the page.
As for him posting my PM, you are right, it matters not. For the intention given was as I said, that he be careful as to not lie again. But his flesh urged him to do as he did and post it. This opened the door to airing out all that he did wrong and also proved to all he cannot be trusted. The PM was innocent enough, but the end result worked for the glory of the Lord. Not that this happened, but that one who hinders the faith is exposed.
A spirit, once dead, reborn
3 BAPTISMS
I have know idea what you are talking about heiscomingintheclouds.What post was changed?
Nick isn't telling me he hasn't lied or that he has.
All I can see right now are about two people who are ready to crucify him. I don't want to crucify anyone.
To heiscomingintheclouds.
Quote (heiscomingintheclouds @ Sep. 20 2006,20:18) David, there is a difference between misunderstanding and blatant lying. I caught him in a lie, and he knows I did. He would not admit it. And eventually the conversation was changed. Now, if not guilty, why would one go and change text?
As I said, I have a witness as to the changing of text, but I don't want to involve the person. I would rather drop the entire issue. For the constitution of this man is out in the open and it is more then obvious he cannot be trusted. That in itself is punishment enough.As for his age, that is more the reason he should get saved.
Thank you for your rely David.
It's too late heiscomingintheclouds. You have made an accusation and you should now provide the proof and the witnesses. You can't just leave it there and say that Nick is a liar and is unsaved. That is not good enough.The onus is on you now to prove your accusation.
If there is no proof then I think you owe him a big apology.To call someone a liar and as unsaved is not a small thing. You need to prove your accusations, or you should be kicked off this board for slander. In the rules it states:
2) No abusing others.
…Members can be removed for such conduct.
So you need to provide the proof in order to show that you haven't broken the rules.
Quote (Cubes @ Sep. 19 2006,22:09) Hi Kenrch, Regarding Nick's sharing of the PM sent to him, I think in this case Nick was right to share it for the following reasons (and please don't think I am taking sides. I consider both H & Nick as my brothers and friends):
1. The content of the PM is about Nick (Not H), thus Nick's prerogative to do with it what he wants.
2. H said that it was out of regard to Nick he PM'd him rather than publicize the content, so again, this gives Nick the prerogative to do what he wants with the unfavorable information about himself.
3. In this case, given the content of the PM, I side with Nick's handling of it. If we don't bring such things to light we run the risk of being under the power of others or living in fear, which for both parties' sake, is uncalled for.
4. On the other hand, the issue about which H speaks can also now be addressed as among brethren, as is being done now.
Having said all that, I do respect and acknowledge your concerns for confidentiality and privacy for the most part.
Hi Cubes,You are siding against scripture:
Mat 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him “ALONE “: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.Is this what our brother (who is a teacher) did? Did he confront H about the matter? NO! Did he tell t8 about it BEFORE bring it before the forum? NO!
Mat 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee ONE OR TWO MORE , that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Did Nick do this? NO!
Nick did “his” thing and did not follow scripture. Who is Nick that he can break rules and ignore what our Lord said?
Nick cannot apologize because his pride won't let him. Sad but nonetheless true.
Should not have Nick followed scripture? Of course he should have but he doesn't seem to care that he didn't. Jesus Christ said through scripture that what Nick did was wrong.
How can anyone say Nick did nothing wrong when scripture point to the truth. It's in black and white! He did wrong and he knows he did wrong but won't apologize.Perhaps someone may explain what Matt. 18:15-17 means. since Nick won't apologize and some of you believe he is right.
Hi Ken,
My attempt to say much would result in speculating about things I know nothing of, and perhaps adding fuel to fire.
We are to settle disagreements in the manner you described, but what of actual threats or perceived threats?
Quote (heaven @ Sep. 16 2006,01:30) Hi Frank Members get editing rights when they have shown themselves trustworthy in that they are not likely to abuse that function.
To that end, I have given you editing rights.
Hmmm, I still can't figure out how I can edit my posts on this forum after posting.Nick, how could I show proof if editing took place? Maybe this is why it would be better that none have editing rights other then the moderator. It took forever before I was given editing ability and it mattered to me not, because I knew that by not having it, then what you did, I would not be tempted to do, not that I would anyhow. I am thankful for editing ability because I am not a very good typist or speller.
As for the witness to the editing of changes or removal of conversation, if my witness feels in it nessessary to speak out, then it will be so. Otherwise, my word will be against yours and those on the forum will have be judge as to who's they deem to be most credible.
As for giving an apology, I am not the one who lied. Futhermore, by posting my PM was proof that you cannot be trusted.
I will apologize for having to bring this all about to all on the forum. I am sorry it had to happen, but are souls going to be led unto the saviour by lies and deception? I regret this had to happen and I was made aware the this gentleman is elderly and age may be playing part in this sad event that has taken place so to overlook what has happened would be in the best interest of us all, but all bearing in mind that the words of this man must be taken with a grain of salt.
Hi H,
So if you have made and continue to make serious allegations
about editing posts
and lying
and being untrustworthy
and even laughable ones like being “elderly” without the proof to make them where does that leave you?This might as well be my good by speech. For if the occurance disappeared, it will not reappear, and this man being the friend of the moderator carries more weight then that of truth and righteousness. If it did not, he would already know the truth. There is two witnesses, but this means nothing. For they will use that in we conspired against him. So God will judge them accordingly. Of this there is no doubt. But before I do get expunged, I pray I have the time to go back and find the exact place of at least one altercation so as all can see the validity of my argument. That is, if there is enough evidence that can be brought to the forefront so as to make it to where one can see the truth in this matter. All I can do is try.
Nick, I think it was I who first said you were elderly. You are in your sixties, right? Maybe that's not elderly to you.
I was simply throwing that in, because maybe you did something and forgot. Not that elderly ones are forgetful. We are all human. I was just raising that possibility in an attempt to make this go away.
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