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Hi mk,
No doubt.
How many fulfillments?
Jesus has not returned yet so many remain incompletely fulfilled.Zech 12
1The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.2Behold, I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling unto all the people round about, when they shall be in the siege both against Judah and against Jerusalem.
3And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces, though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it.
4In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness.
5And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God.
6In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.
7The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah.
8In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
9And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Zech 14
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
13And it shall come to pass in that day, that a great tumult from the LORD shall be among them; and they shall lay hold every one on the hand of his neighbour, and his hand shall rise up against the hand of his neighbour.
14And Judah also shall fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the heathen round about shall be gathered together, gold, and silver, and apparel, in great abundance.
15And so shall be the plague of the horse, of the mule, of the camel, and of the ass, and of all the beasts that shall be in these tents, as this plague.
16And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
Nick In the same prophecy – there can be 2 fulfillments however maybe not both physical literal fulfillments but a physical and a spiritual one – also one bound to time in weeks one bound to time in years, etc
A problem happens if you mix a literal physical prophecy fulfillment with the spiritual.
Meerkat
You are right on it, Rev. 12:15 speaks of the same flood, false doctrine of Antichrist; with it Satan tried to overwhelm the woman, the saints, Christs bride.
Mat. 24:15 refers to the Mass sacrifice Daniel spoke of, Dan. 9:27.
Verses 16-20 refer to the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
Verses 21-22 prophesy the worst tribulation for the Jewish people. Jeremiah prophesied about the same period, Jer. 30:7, and so did Daniel, 12:1. This time occurred during Hitler's reign; you know he tried to eradicate the entire Jewish race, and had he won the war there would be no flesh, Jew, alive today.Georg
Georg,
Another recurring thought I've had is gathering the elect (is Spiritual – not physical) is an ongoing thing lasting the times of the gentiles …… from 70AD til all kingdoms become Christs ……..
And also the martyrs are the elect and are not physically decapitated people (although at times the spiritual martyrs are also physical martyrs) but it has to do with the death of the old man in the current physical lifetime. Just as Jesus did Gods will and not his own – it is those who do Gods will and not their own.
Any thoughts??
Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 15 2008,10:06) Meerkat You are right on it, Rev. 12:15 speaks of the same flood, false doctrine of Antichrist; with it Satan tried to overwhelm the woman, the saints, Christs bride.
Mat. 24:15 refers to the Mass sacrifice Daniel spoke of, Dan. 9:27.
Verses 16-20 refer to the AD70 destruction of Jerusalem and the temple.
Verses 21-22 prophesy the worst tribulation for the Jewish people. Jeremiah prophesied about the same period, Jer. 30:7, and so did Daniel, 12:1. This time occurred during Hitler's reign; you know he tried to eradicate the entire Jewish race, and had he won the war there would be no flesh, Jew, alive today.Georg
I agree,However I somehow think that it was the total time including Hitlers reign and persecution and still going on maybe…….
Also looking at Jeremiah
Jer 30:3 For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:3For, lo, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will bring again the captivity of my people Israel and Judah, saith the LORD: and I will cause them to return to the land that I gave to their fathers, and they shall possess it.
Jer 30:4And these [are] the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah.
Jer 30:5For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace.
Jer 30:6Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Jer 30:7Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
Jer 30:8For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him:
Jer 30:9But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.It says that they will be serving the Lord their God and it will be both Israel and Judah returned ……… I have read a bit about the 10 lost tribes of Israel and think that they are a part of the fulfillment of prophecy and people are only looking to a physical fulfillment whereas it seems that there will be physical and spiritual fulfillments and the 2 can not be mixed – physical judgement vs spiritual redemption.
The physical “Jews” are not repentant and serving God it seems to me.
Your thoughts??
Meerkat
Is it not strange, we call the nation Israel, and we call the people Jews.
I do believe that by now there are families from all twelve tribes in the land. The ten tribes may have been lost to us, people, but not to God.
Jewish people are in part still despised, but nothing like they had to endure under Hitler. The hatred shown now, comes mainly from the Muslims.
The scriptures you quoted from Jeremiah are still to be fulfilled, with the exception of verse seven.
Read what Zechariah says, 12:2,3; this is happening right now; and how far are we from this, 13:2,3, and 12:9? And this is speaking of the millennium, 14:16,17.
All who will live on this earth will be physical; the Jews that are left, will be the first to repent, and gradually the law will go out from Jerusalem, Zech. 8:13, 22, 23.Georg
Hi mk,
They will when they see him returning
Zech 12
Zechariah 12:10
And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.Nick
Will see him is not meant with the physical eye.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Paul saw Jesus on his way to Damascus for just a moment, and it blinded him; and all of us would be too if we were to look at Jesus now. That's why you always read about his return is in a cloud. A cloud hides things, or protects.
Georg
Georg,
Also in the OT were clouds associated with judgements of God? – I remember reading that somewhere.
Meerkat
Yes you did.
Joel 2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
This was a prophecy against the kingdom of Israel (ten tribes).
Georg
When I have time, I'll go over your posts on prophecy – I am really drawn to it and will need to take it in and then ask questions of you – however there is such a lot of it in the OT books supporting Revelation, and having to tie it all up, etc – very mind boggling!!
Quote (Tiffany @ Dec. 17 2008,15:15) Nick Will see him is not meant with the physical eye.
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Paul saw Jesus on his way to Damascus for just a moment, and it blinded him; and all of us would be too if we were to look at Jesus now. That's why you always read about his return is in a cloud. A cloud hides things, or protects.
Georg
Georg,John seemed to be able to “see” God and Jesus. He describes them in Rev. Right?
I will be soooooooooooooo disppointed if I cann't see my Lord.
They better hand out sunglasses at the gates, if this is the case.
Hi mk,
It also speaks of the return of the Son of Man.Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness,Matthew 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.Matthew 26:64
Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.Mark 13:26
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.Mark 14:62
And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.Mandy
Everything John saw in the book of Revelation was in a vision; he was on the island of patmos, baned by the Roman government.
I don't believe you will be disappointed because the world will be completely different then what it is now. Our feelings to Jesus are greatly influenced by all the songs that were written about Jesus. I'm not trying to take away the fact that it was Jesus who died for our sins, but it is the Father who is God, it is He that we have sinned against, and it is He that forgives us our sins.
Jesus excepted to fulfill a mission, which by the way no one else could have done, for which God highly exalted him; it was his reward. All the prophets did what was expected of them; all the saints who gave their live to show their love for the Father and the Son, they all have a reward coming. Their sacrifices was done in faith, believing in the promises, but not seeing them. All others that will be saved, will not be by faith, it will be by obedience to the gospel because then we will see. All that will obey the gospel then will receive the gift of God, eternal life.
Paul was given a glimpse into that new world (2 Cor. 12:2-4), even had he been allowed to speak about what he saw, it would have been difficult for him to describe what he saw. I believe that when we will live in that world, we will not feel disappointed not being able to see Jesus Christ; just as we don't feel deprived not being able to see the Father.Georg
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