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Quote (selah @ Mar. 29 2010,19:09) Hi Karmarie, You now say that you dont know much about the history of the RCC. I think it is imperative that you look into it if you are seriously seeking the truth about the subject we are discussing.
Did you read “What I Saw In Rome” … do you believe what he saw?
Are you aware of the Inquisition?Are you aware of the book “The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire”?
Do you know what the “interdict list” is? This book was on it.The RCC forbade its followers to read it at one time.
Are you aware that the Bible was also on this list of forbidden books to be read by the followers of Rome?Were you aware of these things?
For quite some time I have been wondering why some of the information Georg and I have presented did not seem to make any impact on your thoughts. I think I now understand why.
Before you posted your comment about not knowing much about the RCC, I had prepared the following post:
Hi Karmarie,
From the opening of this thread “A Coincidence or A Creation”, I have provided evidence that mirrored some of the thoughts of the Reformation saints and martyrs of the past regarding the papacy as the False Prophet, and the Church of Rome being the harlot church described in Rev 18 and elsewhere.
Georg has also provided evidence, and you yourself studied under the Seventh Day Adventists who believe similarly regarding the papacy and the harlot church … and yet you are still reluctant to believe the evidence.
In my final attempt, I would ask this question of you. Is there anything that would convince you that the Vatican and its pope is the false prophet and that the RCC is the harlot church?
If so, what might that be based upon the Book of Revelation?
I have a scenario to suggest, but I will await to see what your “anything” may be?
Selah, ok im getting confused now lol.
I just cant really see it. When they the Adventists, used to talk about it and we read about it, I thought “ok, they must know!”
they claimed to have the spirit of prophecy and prophecy is always interesting.I guess because I have no idea on what the RCC actually did or do, apart from the news today on abuse, (ok that is really wrong) plus statues, and calling the pope Holy Father…which is all not right,
but I can also see the majority of them serve the Lord despite the confusion, I can think of MUCH worse things in the world today.What is upsetting is wars, greed, lies, torture, child abuse and neglect, pollution, and so on. When I see the pope and his followers, I dont sense anything that bad.
For example the Catholic Fathers amongst the Gazans during invasion, helping and defending them, or the Priests who protested against the Iraq invasion?
Fighting against Abortions, running missions to house the hungry and homeless, and so on. I just cant see them as the worst thing on the planet! Not even close to it.Quote I think it is imperative that you look into it if you are seriously seeking the truth about the subject we are discussing. Ok Selah I will.
Quote In my final attempt, I would ask this question of you. Is there anything that would convince you that the Vatican and its pope is the false prophet and that the RCC is the harlot church? I have a scenario to suggest, but I will await to see what your “anything” may be?
Um..maybe if the Pope said he was Jesus returned and everyone followed after him- whats your suggestion?
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 29 2010,18:18) Kar your explanation may not fit in Rev;
Rev 18:21 Then a mighty angel picked up a boulder the size of a large millstone and threw it into the sea, and said:
“With such violence
the great city of Babylon will be thrown down,
never to be found again.
Rev 18:22 The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters,
will never be heard in you again.
No workman of any trade
will ever be found in you again.
The sound of a millstone
will never be heard in you again.
Rev 18:23 The light of a lamp
will never shine in you again.
The voice of bridegroom and bride
will never be heard in you again.
Your merchants were the world’s great men.
By your magic spell all the nations were led astray.
Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earththis could apply to all the religions ever existed (false religion that is)it even can apply to all visible works of Satan.(opposition to God)
Hi T.I think its the whole world , man trying to run the world his own way rather than Gods. Mans world. (and that includes the Religeons)
Do we call on the Lord or do we call on the Army and Police Doctors and so on?
“…This is what the Lord has said: Cursed is the man who puts his faith in man, and makes flesh his arm, and whose heart is turned away from the Lord.”
“…Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved!”
Kar
Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earthit seems to be that ,because this verse is only posible if we make it to be true,so Babylon as to be seen as the power and as the religion domination.
this could include Satan,because he is the first criminal.in the case of Adam,
also The whore could for that reason be Satan,and the beast= man ( all who do have the mark)
this would explain why rev 18;24 says in her was found the blood of all ……………killed on the earth.
Hi Karmarie, you said:
“When I see the pope and his followers, I don't sense anything bad.”
Karmarie, are we to rely on our “common sense” for spiritual discernment or what the Bible says and history records?You are right, the pope doesn't appear that bad does he? He looks harmless enough … clothed in his white robes, he even appears as an angel of light.
Regarding “anything” that would convince you.
How about this? Rev 13 describes someone dying by a mortal, death wound. An image is then made of that dead one and it has the ability to speak and people bow down to it.
Would you be convinced, in a scenario wherein a pope literally dies, an image that can speak is made of the one that died, and people literally bow down to it?
Would that convince you if such an event actually came to pass?
Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 30 2010,04:06) Kar Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earthit seems to be that ,because this verse is only posible if we make it to be true,so Babylon as to be seen as the power and as the religion domination.
this could include Satan,because he is the first criminal.in the case of Adam,
also The whore could for that reason be Satan,and the beast= man ( all who do have the mark)
this would explain why rev 18;24 says in her was found the blood of all ……………killed on the earth.
Hi T.The early church did things alot different than today.
It seems today money has become a God, not only in peoples lives, but also in the Churches.I once thought as I ate some food, as I eat this, someone somewhere else would have just died of starvation, I thought of that person dyeing and wondered how God must feel. We need to thank Him for the things we have, but be ready to have nothing, and still thank God. For his love, life, the Sunshine and clouds, all that is left.
I dont know who the beast of rev is, but I think that as long as we follow God and not man we will be ok.
Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 30 2010,09:37) Quote (terraricca @ Mar. 30 2010,04:06) Kar Rev 18:24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints,
and of all who have been killed on the earthit seems to be that ,because this verse is only posible if we make it to be true,so Babylon as to be seen as the power and as the religion domination.
this could include Satan,because he is the first criminal.in the case of Adam,
also The whore could for that reason be Satan,and the beast= man ( all who do have the mark)
this would explain why rev 18;24 says in her was found the blood of all ……………killed on the earth.
Hi T.The early church did things alot different than today.
It seems today money has become a God, not only in peoples lives, but also in the Churches.I once thought as I ate some food, as I eat this, someone somewhere else would have just died of starvation, I thought of that person dyeing and wondered how God must feel. We need to thank Him for the things we have, but be ready to have nothing, and still thank God. For his love, life, the Sunshine and clouds, all that is left.
I dont know who the beast of rev is, but I think that as long as we follow God and not man we will be ok.
Karthe way you think is the right way,you have the book of Job can help there.
Hi Selah.
You said;
Quote Hi Karmarie, you said: “When I see the pope and his followers, I don't sense anything bad.”
Karmarie, are we to rely on our “common sense” for spiritual discernment or what the Bible says and history records?
You are right, the pope doesn't appear that bad does he? He looks harmless enough … clothed in his white robes, he even appears as an angel of light.
He looks a little shrewd:)
Quote Regarding “anything” that would convince you. How about this? Rev 13 describes someone dying by a mortal, death wound. An image is then made of that dead one and it has the ability to speak and people bow down to it.
Would you be convinced, in a scenario wherein a pope literally dies, an image that can speak is made of the one that died, and people literally bow down to it?
Would that convince you if such an event actually came to pass?
If 2 thirds of the earth bowed down to the image, then yes I would believe it.
I was reading today in 2nd Thessalonians regarding the falling away, the coming of the “lawless one”, and I do believe it is talking about the same thing as Revelations. The Early church writters also believed that. Do you not feel the early writters would have had some idea on what it was to mean? It speaks of the restrainer, who or what do you think the restrainer is? (2nd Thessalonians:2) it also says he (the lawless one) will be consumed at the coming of Christ, this hasnt happened yet. I believe that when The Lord returns, ALL bad will be destroyed and it wont be a slow thing.
Hi Karmarie … two thirds … like 66.6
Could you give me your scripture passage that connects two thirds of mankind with worshiping the image? Just spent half and hour going through all 22 chapters but must have missed it.
Quote (selah @ Mar. 30 2010,13:17) Hi Karmarie … two thirds … like 66.6 Could you give me your scripture passage that connects two thirds of mankind with worshiping the image? Just spent half and hour going through all 22 chapters but must have missed it.
Hi Selah, I got the two thirds from The early church writtings describing the beast and its followers sorry to confuse you on that;St. Cyril of Jerusalem
“Antichrist will exceed in malice, perversity, lust, wickedness, impiety, and ruthlessness and barbarity all men that have ever disgraced human nature. Hence St. Paul emphatically calls him `the man of sin the son of perdition, the wicked one, whose birth and coming is through the operation of Satan, in all manner of seduction and iniquity.' (2 Thess., 2). Through his great power, deceit and malice he shall succeed in decoying or forcing to his worship two thirds of mankind; the remaining third part of men will continue true to the faith and worship of Jesus Christ most steadfastly. But in his satanic rage and fury, Antichrist will persecute these brave and devout Christians during three years and a half, and torture them with such an extremity of barbarity, with all the old and newly invented instruments of pain, as to exceed all past persecutors of the Church combined. He will oblige all his followers to bear impressed upon their foreheads or right hands the mark of the Beast and will starve to death all those who refuse to receive it.”
Hi Karmarie,
If that is an example of early church writings, I would be hesitant about other of their claims.
There are scripture passages that talk about “one third” Rev 8,9 Satan and his one third angels and another passage in Rev 12:4, but none that connects one third or two thirds to an image.
I think some of those “saints” may have had vivid imaginations.
And, nope, never heard of a pope claiming to be Jesus … …yet.
How about if one claimed to be God on earth, would that be convincing?Quote (selah @ Mar. 30 2010,14:11) Hi Karmarie, If that is an example of early church writings, I would be hesitant about other of their claims.
There are scripture passages that talk about “one third” Rev 8,9 Satan and his one third angels and another passage in Rev 12:4, but none that connects one third or two thirds to an image.
I think some of those “saints” may have had vivid imaginations.
And, nope, never heard of a pope claiming to be Jesus … …yet.
How about if one claimed to be God on earth, would that be convincing?
sel
you can be playing god wen you sit yourself on a throne and claim that you are the channel to god ,and do whatever you wantHi Karmarie… it is said that you are what you read.
It appears that a lot of your reading is based upon your interest in what Roman Catholic writers from the past had to say.
Do you think they would be critical of their own church if heresies had crept into it?
I would suggest that you try to balance your reading and examine what Protestant writers from the past (and present) have to say also.
I am going to recommend two Protestant sites, one that provides free reading of some of the great writers of the Reformation. I guess you could call them “early church fathers” of Protestantism, but I don't think they would appreciate that designation.
The first one is http://www.historicism last days. You will find such writers as Gratton Guinness, E.B. Elliott, Isaac Newton, Joseph Mede, likely John Calvin and a host of other respected writers and theologians. A little heavy reading, but one of my favourites is “The Seventy Weeks of Daniel” by Philip Mauro.
The other site is more contemporary. It is “The Pope And The Papacy” by John McArthur. www.biblebb.com/files/mac/90-291.htm
What about that question about a pope (not claiming to be Jesus) but claiming to be God on earth? Might that be convincing?
Quote (selah @ Mar. 30 2010,13:17) Hi Karmarie … two thirds … like 66.6
Wow Selah, two thirds of mankind = 6.66! Could it mean anything?Quote (selah @ Mar. 30 2010,19:45) Hi Karmarie… it is said that you are what you read. It appears that a lot of your reading is based upon your interest in what Roman Catholic writers from the past had to say.
Do you think they would be critical of their own church if heresies had crept into it?
I would suggest that you try to balance your reading and examine what Protestant writers from the past (and present) have to say also.
I am going to recommend two Protestant sites, one that provides free reading of some of the great writers of the Reformation. I guess you could call them “early church fathers” of Protestantism, but I don't think they would appreciate that designation.
The first one is http://www.historicism last days. You will find such writers as Gratton Guinness, E.B. Elliott, Isaac Newton, Joseph Mede, likely John Calvin and a host of other respected writers and theologians. A little heavy reading, but one of my favourites is “The Seventy Weeks of Daniel” by Philip Mauro.
The other site is more contemporary. It is “The Pope And The Papacy” by John McArthur. www.biblebb.com/files/mac/90-291.htm
What about that question about a pope (not claiming to be Jesus) but claiming to be God on earth? Might that be convincing?
Hi SelahI have only read what is called the Anti Nicene Fathers, who were before the council which made changes to the church. They were closest to the Apostles.
Thanks for the list of books I'll take a look.You asked;
Quote What about that question about a pope (not claiming to be Jesus) but claiming to be God on earth? Might that be convincing? It would. I would be watching to see how many follow him.
I believe God gives us the guidance we need as we need it and as we ask.
One thing I know; if someone claimed to be Jesus or God on earth I wouldnt believe it for a second,
no man on earth will be Jesus or God, it will be an imposter.What is my understanding of the 70 weeks?
It is finished. There is no “gap” and Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ … not some antichrist.
I believe what Christians have always believed about it, “prior” to John Darby's “spin”, and his futuristic scenario.
As I noted to Karmarie, you can read Mauro's book free at http://www.historicism last days. “The Seventy Weeks of Daniel”. It is not the easiest reading, but it is thorough.
I prefer to stay on one subject at a time in each thread. I hope to resolve what Karmarie and I are discussing, but if there is still interest in the thread that already exists about Daniel 9:27, I may post a few comments there after she and I try to come to a conclusion here.
Hi karmarie,
“Wow Selah, two thirds of mankind = 66.6, could it mean anything?”
No, I do not believe there is any significance in two thirds = 66.6
except when pope John Paul II was elected by the required vote of 66.6% of the 111 cardinals present that day.
two thirds of 111 = 74
Jesus was “numbered” with the transgressors.Jesus = 74
Lucifer = 74Quote (selah @ Mar. 31 2010,09:51) What is my understanding of the 70 weeks? It is finished. There is no “gap” and Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ … not some antichrist.
I believe what Christians have always believed about it, “prior” to John Darby's “spin”, and his futuristic scenario.
As I noted to Karmarie, you can read Mauro's book free at http://www.historicism last days. “The Seventy Weeks of Daniel”. It is not the easiest reading, but it is thorough.
I prefer to stay on one subject at a time in each thread. I hope to resolve what Karmarie and I are discussing, but if there is still interest in the thread that already exists about Daniel 9:27, I may post a few comments there after she and I try to come to a conclusion here.
Hi Selah,
I totally agree with you Selah (concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel), here is a video explaining the concept; for those interested.
Click HereThe time line (on the Video counter) regarding this: starts at 15:25 – 52:30 .
Listen all the way to the ending count I have given for you all.Here is something I Posted on Dec 19, 2009…Click Here <– LAST POST on Page
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
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