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T,
The papal mitre “appears” like the head of a fish, and that is why some people compare the pope to the fish god Dagon.
But their doctrine is not what we believe, but what they say it is.
Their official position is that the “hat” represents the tongues of fire that came down upon the heads of the Apostles.
This is fact.Hi Karinamarie,
I am not going to let you “off the hook” on this one!
Putting aside all the miracles they claim, let us home in on one.
The RCC claims the pope and his priests change the wine into the literal blood of Jesus, then they “drink the blood”.
This is true or it is a lie. Do you believe they can do this?
If not, how can you continue to defend the point that they are not the false church described in Revelation?Quote (selah @ Mar. 24 2010,16:53) Hi Karinamarie, The RCC claims the pope and his priests change the wine into the literal blood of Jesus, then they “drink the blood”.
Hi Selah,Transubstantiation
Ed J
Quote (selah @ Mar. 24 2010,16:53) Hi Karinamarie, I am not going to let you “off the hook” on this one!
Putting aside all the miracles they claim, let us home in on one.
The RCC claims the pope and his priests change the wine into the literal blood of Jesus, then they “drink the blood”.
This is true or it is a lie. Do you believe they can do this?
If not, how can you continue to defend the point that they are not the false church described in Revelation?
SELlook at the 10 plagues in Egypt with Moses the Egyptian could do that too;
EX 7:21 The fish that were in the Nile died, and the Nile became foul, so that the Egyptians could not drink water from the Nile. And the blood was through all the land of Egypt.
EX 7:22 But the magicians of Egypt did the same with their secret artsHello Selah
I was looking into what you said from both points of view.
It appears that the Eucharist (Transubstantiation) was an early practice in the Early church.
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/father/a5.htmlIv studied quite a lot of the Early church Writtings. I found them interesting for the fact it was the earliest church, closer to 'The truth' than we may be today because they were closer in time.
Yes Ed … you are right. “Drinking the blood” is a result of their doctrine of transubstantiation.
The RCC belief that Mark 14:22, 24 is to be understood literally.
“This is My body” … “This is My blood”.Most Protestants believe neither Scripture nor history provide evidence for this belief. I hope all will note the following:
Protestants see it as a dangerous basis for the view that the Mass is a “repetition” of Christ's sacrifice and that Christ's death was INSUFFICIENT TO ATONE FOR ALL SIN, WARPING THE REASON FOR JESUS' LIFE, DEATH, AND RESURRECTION.
Karmarie, regarding some of the early church writings, you said:
“I found it interesting for the fact “it was the earliest church”I think Mikeangel made a similar statement but I think he said the Roman Catholic Church was the first Christian church.
Correct me if you did not indicate that Mike.
I have a sincere question, does anyone here believe that the Roman Catholic Church was the first or earliest Christian church?
Back to the wine being transformed into the blood of Jesus.I am not really concerned what the Didache or ECF had to say about this, as my question remains … does it? Is this a true miracle, or is it a lying wonder?
I hope to get back on track about the beast and Mystery Babylon in my next post.
Hi Selah
The earliest church I believe was the Eastern Orthodox (also known as the Catholic Universal), but what is now known as the Catholic Church goes under the Pope, where the Orthodox dont (go under Him). So thats the difference. Apart from Icons and so on I find the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox really interesting, I believe quite a bit of what they do.
I still cant see how it could fit into Revelations.
Also how does 3 and a half years (in Revelations and Daniel) change to become thousands of years?
I believe it is to be exactly 3 half years.By the way, your getting good at bold print:)
Hi Karmaie,
I was hoping that someone would have responded about your and Mikes claim that the RCC was “the first and earliest” church.
I would have thought that the first Christian church would have been in Jerusalem … wouldn't you?
In the beginning of Revelation John of Patmos speaks about seven churches that existed in his time. The Church of Rome is not one of them?? Is that not strange if it was the “first”?
I would be interested to know if your parents believe the RC claim that Mary's house in Nazareth was literally transported by angels to Italy?
If they do not (?) why do you think they would remain in a church that they believe has made a false claim?
Quote (selah @ Mar. 26 2010,06:36) Hi Karmaie, I was hoping that someone would have responded about your and Mikes claim that the RCC was “the first and earliest” church.
I would have thought that the first Christian church would have been in Jerusalem … wouldn't you?
In the beginning of Revelation John of Patmos speaks about seven churches that existed in his time. The Church of Rome is not one of them?? Is that not strange if it was the “first”?
I would be interested to know if your parents believe the RC claim that Mary's house in Nazareth was literally transported by angels to Italy?
If they do not (?) why do you think they would remain in a church that they believe has made a false claim?
selthe roman catholic church is not the first christian church,it only started in 325 ad or so,
you would miss 300 years ,the first church is the church establish by Christ and the apostles.after Christ deadQuote (selah @ Mar. 26 2010,08:36) Hi Karmaie, I was hoping that someone would have responded about your and Mikes claim that the RCC was “the first and earliest” church.
I would have thought that the first Christian church would have been in Jerusalem … wouldn't you?
In the beginning of Revelation John of Patmos speaks about seven churches that existed in his time. The Church of Rome is not one of them?? Is that not strange if it was the “first”?
I would be interested to know if your parents believe the RC claim that Mary's house in Nazareth was literally transported by angels to Italy?
If they do not (?) why do you think they would remain in a church that they believe has made a false claim?
HiSelah,The Roman Catholic church definatly wasnt the earliest church. The Eastern Orthodox is apparently the original.
click on this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_ChurchI do recall reading somewhere in the Early church writtings that at least one writer believed the Antichrist (or beast) could seat himself in the church itself.
After Rome collapsed and divided.I have no idea if my Family believe in the story of Angels transporting Mary's house, iv never even heard of it myself.
They remain in the church because my Dads Family are Native Irish (you know the trouble in Ireland between Irish Catholic and English Protestant)
so its tradition, they will never leave. Protestants scare them:)Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 26 2010,09:33) Quote (selah @ Mar. 26 2010,08:36) Hi Karmaie, I was hoping that someone would have responded about your and Mikes claim that the RCC was “the first and earliest” church.
I would have thought that the first Christian church would have been in Jerusalem … wouldn't you?
In the beginning of Revelation John of Patmos speaks about seven churches that existed in his time. The Church of Rome is not one of them?? Is that not strange if it was the “first”?
I would be interested to know if your parents believe the RC claim that Mary's house in Nazareth was literally transported by angels to Italy?
If they do not (?) why do you think they would remain in a church that they believe has made a false claim?
HiSelah,The Roman Catholic church definatly wasnt the earliest church. The Eastern Orthodox is apparently the original.
click on this;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodox_ChurchI do recall reading somewhere in the Early church writtings that at least one writer believed the Antichrist (or beast) could seat himself in the church itself.
After Rome collapsed and divided.I have no idea if my Family believe in the story of Angels transporting Mary's house, iv never even heard of it myself.
They remain in the church because my Dads Family are Native Irish (you know the trouble in Ireland between Irish Catholic and English Protestant)
so its tradition, they will never leave. Protestants scare them:)
Karthe choise is not Catholic versus protestante, it is truth of God versus the world and his master.
Selah heres an interesting link I read quite a while back
Further down the page are pieces of what the Early church thought.Thanks for the link Karmarie.
They had so many opposing views that one would think they all used a different Bible!
Quote (selah @ Mar. 26 2010,16:01) Thanks for the link Karmarie. They had so many opposing views that one would think they all used a different Bible!
selsomthing for you;
Absolute proof Matthew 28:19 has been corrupted by trinitarians
Trinitarians have sinned against Jesus Christ
For putting words in the Bible HE NEVER SAIDBy Dr. G. Reckart, Apostolic Theological Bible College
For over 20 years I have predicted the time would come when evidence would prove that the words “of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” were added to Matthew's original Gospel. It did not make sense to me for baptism to be in the name of the one who died and was resurrected in Romans 6 and the Father and Holy Ghost had to be mentioned in baptism. I could not reconcile why the Apostles ignored Matthew 28:19 as it now exist in our KJV Bible and instead baptized in the name of Jesus Christ only. Yes, in baptism they were “JESUS ONLY.” No one can find any other baptism in the New Testament. No one can deny there is then ONE BAPTISM when reference is made to the New Testament mikvah. Now we have the evidence and the trinity world is in for a massive shaking.
It was known by the Catholic Church that the Jews had preserved a copy of the original Gospel of Matthew in the Hebrew language. How this was preserved and handed down we do not know. In fact, it does not matter. It exists and that is proof enough that God wanted it preserved. There have been many attempts to destroy the crediability of this very valuable Hebrew Gospel for obvious reasons. It is the only existing manuscript that proves Matthew 28:19 did not originally contain the trinitarian baptismal formula. Catholics and Protestants have no other reason to cast doubt on the validity of this manuscript. Claims that it is spurious are of course self-serving to trinitarians. Such denials make Jesus say what he did not say. This of itself is an abomination. It is a sin to make Jesus say a trinitarian baptismal formula and put into his mouth their trinitarian godhead doctrine fabricated at Nicaea in 325AD. Now that this manuscript is known among the Apostolic Oneness, we will promote the fact that the Catholic Church has willingly lied about Matthew 28:19 and the Catholics in general (including the Eastern Orthodox) have lied to the world. Everyone who was baptized with this false baptism has died lost and without salvation, deceived by the Catholic Church. This damnation of millions is the greatest doctrinal deception ever placed upon the human mind. If those in trinitarianism do not flee from this perversion and be rebaptized in the name of Jesus Christ, they accept their damnation of having no salvation in that false baptism. It is because of this finding that many Evangelicals now claim baptism is not essential to salvation and a person can be saved without it. This Baptist false doctrine was developed when their scholars discovered the trinity baptismal formula was not in the original Hebrew Gospel of Matthew. Interesting that a false doctrine could be birthed based upon what is not in the Bible, rather then what is in the Bible. Trinitarians hid the knowledge of this Hebrew Gospel from the Oneness Apostolics. But God made it possible that through a Baptist scholar, the truth about the missing trinitarian baptismal formula would be published.
In 1995 Dr. George Howard translated a copy of Shem Tov's Matthew Hebrew Gospel. You may purchase a copy of “Hebrew Gospel of Matthew” from many sources. You can look at the evidence for yourself. For the first time in modern history the text of Matthew 28:19 from this Hebrew Gospel text is being posted on the internet. I am the first to post this text. I am sure others will steal my image files and go make their own page. That's ok, but at least have the fairness to tell me you are taking it. At least tell me you are going to make a page. At least give me credit for being the first to post it.
Please note that in verse 19 there is no trinitarian formula.
This is ABSOLUTE proof the trinity was fraudulently added to this text Shem Tov's Hebrew Matthew Gospel
Matthew 28:9-20Thanks T, but that is a subject that I do not wish to enter, as my last comment about the oneness or unity of God had to do with the literal meaning of Deut 6:4 where God is “echad” one.
Echad is a unity of one and no one can dispute this, it is fact. I would appreciate it if this subject was not injected into this thread and that we could concentrate on the beast and the Book of Revelation. thank you.
Karmarie,
I think the Church of Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Church are using smoke and mirrors to claim that they are the “first Christian church”.
After the crucifixion of Jesus, the Christian Church was centered in Jerusalem, in an upper room, and according to Paul, the “pillars” of the Church were James, Peter and John.
The leader of the Jerusalem Church was James the Just until he was martyred in 62 AD.
I dont see how you and Mike can hold to your beliefs that the first Christian Church was the Eastern Orthodox (or the RCC)
Selah Hi.
It was the Eastern Orthodox church, they have all the writtings of the earliest church
The Saints (Eg Ignatius) knew the Apostles (or some of them) ,and Paul. Its really interesting writting.They also believed the Antichrist and beast were the same thing. The mark was the mark of the Antichrist, well thats what I can gather from the writtings in the link I gave you.
The nation of Isreal will be restored (which has happened), the antichrist/beast will come from there
They predicted this in those earliest writtings. 3 1/2 years of horror to come according to that. And then the end of the World. We need to be ready!Sorry such a long post here, its just copied and pasted from the link above; but all these different writers say the same thing! most from over a thousand years ago
This is important I believe.
“Antichrist will exceed in malice, perversity, lust, wickedness, impiety, and ruthlessness and barbarity all men that have ever disgraced human nature. Hence St. Paul emphatically calls him `the man of sin the son of perdition, the wicked one, whose birth and coming is through the operation of Satan, in all manner of seduction and iniquity.' (2 Thess., 2). Through his great power, deceit and malice he shall succeed in decoying or forcing to his worship two thirds of mankind; the remaining third part of men will continue true to the faith and worship of Jesus Christ most steadfastly. But in his satanic rage and fury, Antichrist will persecute these brave and devout Christians during three years and a half, and torture them with such an extremity of barbarity, with all the old and newly invented instruments of pain, as to exceed all past persecutors of the Church combined. He will oblige all his followers to bear impressed upon their foreheads or right hands the mark of the Beast and will starve to death all those who refuse to receive it.” (St. Cyril of Jerusalem)
“One day we asked St. Martin of Tours about the End of the World, and he said that Nero and the Antichrist would come first. Nero would subdue ten kings and rule in the countries of the West. A persecution he was to impose would go so far as to require the worship of heathen idols. Antichrist would first seize the empires of the East; he would have Jerusalem as his seat and imperial Capital. Both the city and its temple were to be rebuilt by him. His persecution would require the denial of Christ's divinity (he himself pretending to be Christ) and would by law impose circumcision on all. Finally, Nero himself was to perish at the hands of Antichrist. In this way, the whole world and its peoples would be brought under his yoke, until, at Christ's coming, the impious imposter would be overcome.” (Sulpicius Severus)
“Antichrist will teach that Christ was an impostor, and not the real Son of God.” (St. Hilary)
“Christ arose from among the Hebrews, and he (Antichrist) will spring from among the Jews. Christ showed His flesh as a Temple, and raised it up on the third day; and he, too, will raise up again the Temple of stone in Jerusalem.” (St. Hippolytus)
“In every respect that Deceiver seeks to make himself appear like the Son of God. Christ is king of things celestial and terrestrial, and Antichrist will be king upon earth. The Saviour sent the Apostles unto all the nations, and he, in like manner will send false apostles. Christ gathered together the dispersed sheep, and he in like manner will gather together the dispersed people of the Hebrews. Christ appeared in the form of man, and he in like manner will come forth in the form of man.” (Hippolytus)
“Antichrist will rule the world from Jerusalem, which he will make into a magnificent city.” (St. Anselm)
“He will call together the whole people to himself, out of every country of the Dispersion, making them his own, as though they were his own children, and promising to restore their country and establish again their kingdom and nation, in order that he may be worshipped by them as God.” (St. Hippolytus)
“This impious man … will give orders that he himself shall be worshipped as God. For he will say he is Christ, though he will be His enemy. That he may be believed he will receive the power of doing wonders, so that fire may descend from heaven, the sun retire from its course and the image which he shall have set up may speak. And by such prodigies he shall entice many to worship him, and to receive his sign on their hands or foreheads. And he who shall not worship him and receive his sign will die with refined tortures. Thus he will destroy nearly two parts, the third will flee into desolate solitudes. But he, frantic and raging with implacable anger, will lead an army and besiege the mountains to which the righteous shall have fled. And when they shall see themselves besieged, they will implore the help of God with a loud voices and God shall hear them, and shall send to them a Deliverer …” (Lactantius)
“Nero will again reappear on earth as a messenger and forerunner of the Evil One who is coming for the devastation of the earth and the overturning of the human race.” (Lactantius)
“Antichrist, the son of perdition will be born in Corozain, will be brought up in Bethsaida and shall begin to reign in Capharnaum, according to what Our Lord Jesus said in the Gospel: “Woe to thee Corozain … woe to thee Bethsaida … and thou Capharnaum that art exalted up to heaven, thou shalt be thrust down to hell. (Luke, 10:13) Antichrist shall work a thousand prodigies on earth. He will make the blind see, the deaf hear, the lame walk, the dead rise, so that even the Elect, if possible, shall be deceived by his magical arts. Puffed up with pride, Antichrist shall enter in triumph the city of Jerusalem and will sit on a throne in the Temple to be adored as if he were the Son of God. His heart being intoxicated with arrogance, he will forget his being a mere man, and the son of a woman of the tribe of Dan.” (St. Zenobius)
“But many who are hearers of Holy Scripture and have it in their hands, and keep it in mind with understanding, will escape his imposture. For they will see clearly through his insidious appearance and his deceitful imposture, and will flee from his hands and betake themselves to the mountains, and hide in the caves of the earth; and they will seek after the Friend of man with tears and a contrite heart: and He will deliver them out of his toils, and with His right hand He will save those from his snares who make their supplication to Him in a worthy and righteous manner.” (St. Hippolytus)
“Dan, Moses said, is a lion's whelp; and in naming the tribe of Dan he declared clearly the tribe from which Antichrist is destined to spring.” (St. Hippolytus)“And the churches, too will wail with a mighty lamentation, because neither oblation nor incense is attended to, nor a service acceptable to God; but the sanctuaries of the churches will become like a garden-watcher's hut, and the Holy Body and Blood of Christ will not be shown in those days. The public service of God shall be extinguished, psalmody shall cease, the reading of Scripture shall not be heard; but for men there shall be darkness and lamentation on lamentation, and woe on woe…
At that time silver and gold shall be cast out in the streets, and none shall gather them; but all things shall be held an offence. For all shall be eager to escape and to hide and they shall not be able anywhere to find shelter from the woes of the Enemy; but as they carry his mark about them, they shall be readily recognised and declared to be his. There shall be fear outside, and trembling inside both by night and by day. In the streets and in the houses there the dead shall lie; in the streets and in the houses there shall hunger and thirst be; in the streets there shall be tumults, and in the houses lamentations. And beauty of countenance shall be withered, for their forms shall be like those of the dead; and the beauty of women shall fade, and the desire of all men shall vanish. But in spite of all this, not even then will the merciful and benignant God leave the race of men without some comfort; He will shorten even those days to the period of three years and a half, and He will curtail those times on account of the remnant of those who hide in the mountains and caves, that the phalanx of all those saints fail not utterly. But these days shall run their course rapidly; and the kingdom of the Deceiver and Antichrist shall be promptly removed. And then, finally, in the twinkling of an eye shall the fashion of this world pass away, and the power of men shall be brought to naught, and all visible things shall be
destroyed.” (St. Hippolytus)“Antichrist will be born of Jewish parents, of the tribe of Dan, but his mother will not be a virgin, as many believe. As the Holy Ghost came into the heart of Mary, so will the devil enter into the mother of Antichrist, and his diabolical power will always support him. Babylon will be his birthplace, but he will be reared and instructed in Bethsaida and Corozain. After his education at the hands of malignant spirits he will go to Jerusalem and place his seat in the Temple which he will have restored. He will submit to the rite of circumcision, claiming that he is the Son of the Omnipotent God. His first converts will be kings and princes. His influence will extend from sea to sea, largely through force and persuasive eloquence. He will perform many signs and great miracles. Those who believe in him will be marked on the forehead with a sign. For three and a half years he will hold sway and, at the end of that period, he will put to death Henoch and Elias, who will have previously opposed him by preaching the true faith. Shortly afterwards, Christ will appear, and Antichrist will be killed by Michael the Archangel.” (Adso the Monk, 10th Century)
“As in Christ dwells the fullness of the Godhead so in Antichrist the fullness of all wickedness. Not indeed in the sense that his humanity is to be assumed by the devil into unity of person …, but that the devil by suggestion infuses his wickedness more copiously into him than into all others. In this way all the wicked that have gone before are signs of Antichrist.” (Summa III:8:8)
“Antichrist will heal the sick, raise the dead, restore sight to the blind, hearing to the deaf, speech to the dumb, raises storms and calms them, re-names mountains, make trees blossom and wither at a word, re-build the temple of Jerusalem, and make Jerusalem the capital city of the world with the vast wealth of hidden treasures.” (Rabanus Maurus, private)
“Then the Son of God, Our Lord Jesus Christ, shall come in person. He shall appear on the clouds of heaven surrounded by legions of angels; and, shining with glory, He will put to death Antichrist, the Beast, the Enemy, the Seducer, and all his followers. This shall be the end of time and the beginning of the general judgment.” (St. Zenobius)
Hi Karmarie,
You said: “It was the Eastern Orthodox church, they have all the writings of the earliest church.”
I think you will agree that that is completely different than them being the earliest church, as you and Mike had originally said (Mike saying the RCC was the first or earliest).
Regarding the comments of your link.
As you know, I believe the Church of Rome is the False Prophet, therefore what they have to say is not convincing for me, as we were told that false and misleading doctrine would soon follow after the preaching of the apostles.St Cyril … St Hilary … St Hippolytus … St Anselm … Adso the monk … St Zenobius.
Some of their comments:
Circumcision on all
Antichrist will come from among the Jews
Antichrist will rule the world from Jerusalem
Antichrist will make it into a magnificent city
Nero will again reappear on earth
Antichrist will be born in Corozain
Antichrist will sit upon a throne in Jerusalem
He will sit in the restored temple in Jerusalem
(that has not happened and I don't believe God will allow that to happen. He destroyed it once and left it desolate)
Antichrist will make Jerusalem the capital city of the world.I believe their vivid imaginations match that of some present day futurists.
One comment that was missing, was that a few Roman Catholic theologians have stated, that based upon the Bible, Antichrist will enter into their own church during the last days.
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