A coincidence or a creation?

Participant

Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 15 2010,12:53)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 14 2010,15:56)

Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 14 2010,08:27)

First of all it is not Georg that made that post, it is Irene, me. Whatever you think, it was an instrument that they used for criminals and two were crucified with Jesus on the cross. If today the Electric Chair were used to kill Jesus would you then put that around your neck or kneel in front of it? It was a tool that was used to put criminals to death. And you especially in the Catholic Church venerate it on Easter. Not only that. I happen to know how people kneel in front of the cross and honor it. You are forgetting that we were Catholics all of our Lives until my Husband was 45 and I was 44. I am so thankful to God that He called us out. I was very active there and tell you the truth, at first I did not want to leave. I went to a Bible Store to get something on Mr. Armstrong. Instead I brought Home a Book” The Two Babylonians.” That opened my eyes real fast. Of course the W.W.C. of God went back to believing in the trinity and all pagan doctrines, which we do not agree with. We have been staying Home since 1994. God has opened so many new Truths. One biggie is the preexisting of Jesus…..I hope you will read the other post I made to you……Come out of Her my people… We did and glad of it….
Irene

March 15, 2010 at 2:13 am#183484

mikeangel

Participant

Irene,
sorry for the misidenticication. Again, I'm no asking about a crucifix, or anything to do with the RCC. Please do me a favor and tell me. Why would God use the mark of the taw, which was a cross, for the angels in Eze.9 to pass over those to be to be spared when he knew it would be the mark of the beast? This question does not have anything to do with Catholics.Love and peace-me

March 15, 2010 at 2:50 am#183489

princess of the king

Participant

The equivalent Hebrew letter tāw ()ת in the Phoenician alphabet and on the coins of the Maccabees had the form of a cross (T).

In oriental synods it was used as a signature by bishops who could not write. The cross, as a sign of ownership, was burnt upon the necks or thighs of horses and camels. It may have been the “mark” set upon the forehead of the righteous in Ezekiel's vision.

Taw (isbe)
tau (תּ, t, , th): The 22nd letter of the Hebrew alphabet; transliterated in this Encyclopedia with the dāghesh as t, and as th without. It came also to be used for the number 400

Psa 119:169 Taw. My loud cry cometh near before Thee, O Jehovah; According to Thy word cause me to understand.

March 15, 2010 at 3:37 am#183494

Participant

Hi Karmarie … you said in part in your recent post:

“I just read the opening post again, about the number 74 and what puzzles me with the number 74 is that it also adds up to Lucifer in gematria? … …”

Karmarie, have you ever considered the possibility of an underlying meaning to a scriptural passage?
A spiritual discernment, or perhaps a “play on word”?

“And the scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was “numbered” with the transgressors.” Mark 15:28.

JESUS = 74
LUCIFER = 74
MUHAMMAD = 74

This particular Greek word “numbered” in Mark 15:28, is Strongs 3049, and can have several meanings:
Four of them being: count, number, reason, TO THINK ON.

This specific word “numbered”, using form #3049 occurs only once in the NT and it is in regard to Jesus being “numbered”.

Now when we read that he was numbered “with” the transgressors, I am sure that most, if not all of us, would conclude that the meaning implied, is that he was considered as being “among” the transgressors, as the verse just prior (vs 27) speaks about how He was on the cross between two thieves.

I do not dispute that major meaning, but it may also have a double (mathematical) meaning, as Jesus, Lucifer and Muhammad each sum at 74.

To make my point, if the intent of the passage was ONLY that He was “among” the thieves, and not a mathematical underlying discernment, a different word would have been used as in Acts 1::26 where Strongs form 2674 is used to describe Matthias being selected as an apostle.

“and he was numbered with the eleven apostles”. That particular form means to be “among us”, or “with us” which would have been very appropriate if that word had been used regarding Jesus, as Jesus was among or with the thieves but, … that word was NOT used there.

That same form (2674) regarding Matthias being selected to be numbered among the apostles, is the identical form used to describe Judas “For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. Acts 1:17

That's my word study for the day.

March 15, 2010 at 5:11 am#183503

Participant

Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 15 2010,14:13)

mike

Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

My Bible doesn't say anything about a cross.

Georg

March 15, 2010 at 5:29 am#183507

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2010,10:45)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 15 2010,01:15)

…the “GREAT I AM” is my God.

I have been of of milk for some time now.
Georg

Hi Georg,

Perhaps that is why you cannot get anyone to agree with you?

Not agreeing with me has nothing to with what I think “I am” means, or what you think it means, it has to do with an overall understanding of the Word, the Bible.
Look at your self, that silly remark is all you could come up with to what I had posted, neither did any one else commented on it, why? lack of understanding. Why didn't you ask questions? you don't even know what to ask, that is why I answered them for you.
You don't even want to get involved for fear of embarrassment, you come up with numbers, and colors; if any one is confused about the scriptures, how is that going to help?
I have seen some strange believes on this forum, but yours beats them all.

Georg

March 15, 2010 at 8:47 am#183511

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ Mar. 15 2010,12:26)

1-Don't they instead add up to 111?
A=1, B=2, C=3 … X=24, Y=25, Z=26.

2-Some people go off on English Gematria and try to match phrases to numbers
looking for word combination's that match yet do not edify (or build up) just to
try to prove that God or more exactly, English Gematria is nothing more than “hogwash”.
The more words that are strung together, the more it can be manipulated. Therefore single words
that have the same total have the most impact and are harder to debunk. The phrases I use come
directly from the AKJV Bible and occurred over large time scales diminishing the look of mans manipulation.

God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Hi Ed.

1- I noticed on that site there were 2 lists, One (English Gematria) all added to 666, the other (Simple Gematria) all added to 111.

2- Theres so many words in the english language so it depends what your looking for and for what purpose and I understand that you did yours over time from the bible – which would mean more than some computer program which could find just about any random thing!

March 15, 2010 at 9:09 am#183517

Participant

Selah- Thankyou for explaining that above, I will look over it properly tomorrow its late here my brain doesnt function too well this late lol. Cant keep my eyes open.

March 15, 2010 at 1:05 pm#183525

mikeangel

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 15 2010,17:11)

Quote (mikeangel @ Mar. 15 2010,14:13)

mike

My Bible doesn't say anything about a cross.

Georg

The original transcripts, what was originally written, said taw. Google it and its there. your bible, whichever it is , was tranlated from the original transcripts.That is not the question. Godbless

March 15, 2010 at 9:58 pm#183559

Participant

Hi Selah and George

I think it is both of you who believe the sign of the cross is the mark of the beast, Many or most believe it will be some microchip or tatoo and are waiting on something to come, it is a possibility but I think it could be less obvious than that! The sign of the cross is a possibility but looking at it from both sides;

=====================

All from here;
http://www.defendingthebride.com/mc/cross.html

The Sign Of The Cross –
The Mark Of The Letter Taw

Fundamentalist often speculate about the Mark of the Beast, Revelation 13:16-17, and they usually speculate that it refers to an actual physical mark, not just something symbolic. Yet, they do not like to think about its anti-type, the mark of Christ.

“… they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads” -(Revelation 9:4)

The Sign of the Cross is associated in idea with certain references in Scripture.

“Then he called to the man dressed in linen … saying to him: Pass through the city (through Jerusalem) and mark an X on the foreheads of those who moan and groan over all the abominations that are practiced within it.”- (Ezekiel 9:3-4)

The “X” in the above quote is the Hebrew letter “taw” which in its present form looks like an upside-down “U.” However, the primitive form of that letter is the “North Semitic taw” which is the common ancestor of both that Hebrew letter and our own letter “T,” and it looked like a plus sign.
(Note: The quotation above from Ezekiel is probably alluding to a man who is a priest since they wore linen vestments.)

When the Israelites fought in a battle in the Seventeenth chapter of Exodus Moses prayed for God’s help. However, Moses prayers were only heard when he prayed with his hands extended making a cross or a “T” shape similar to the form of Christ when He was crucified. Exodus 17, 9-14. Moses who was a Old Testament prefigurement, or type of Christ demonstrated, probably unknowingly, the symbol by which we would be saved.

“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”-(Revelation 7:3)

When a Catholic is Baptized, the priest makes the sign of the cross on the person's forehead three times. One for each Person of the Blessed Trinity.

“Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.”-(Revelation 14:1)

A persons name represents the very essence of who that person is. The name “Jesus” in Hebrew means God saves. Since Jesus Redeemed us by suffering for our sins on the Cross, it is appropriate that we bless ourselves by that sign.

==========================

QUOTATIONS FROM EARLY CHURCH WRITERS

(Tertullian (160- 225 AD): (De cor. Mil., iii),
“in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross”.

Origen (185- 284 AD):
“This (the letter Tau) bears a resemblance to the figure of the cross; and this prophecy (Ezek. ix. 4) is said to regard the sign made by Christians on the forehead, which all believers make whatsoever work they begin upon, and especially at the beginning of prayers, or of holy readings” (T. iii. Select. in Ezek. c. ix).

St. Cyril of Jerusalem (c. 315-86 AD):
“Let us not, therefore, be ashamed of the cross of Christ, but even though another hide it do thou openly seal it on thy brow, that the devils beholding that royal sign may flee far away trembling. But make thou this sign when thou eatest and drinkest, sittest or liest down, risest up, speakest, walkest; in a word, on every occasion, for He who was here crucified is above in the heavens” (Catech. iv. n. 14).

St. Cyril of Jerusalem:
“Many have been crucified throughout the world but none of these do the devils dread, but Christ having been crucified for us, when they see but the sign of the cross the devils shudder” (Catech, xii. n. 22).

St. Augustine (354-430 AD):
“What is the sign (or seal) of Christ, but the cross of Christ ?” (T. iii. Tract. cxviii. in Toan. n. 5).

St. Macarius of Egypt ( 300- 390 AD):
“After the sign of the cross, grace immediately thus operates, and composes all the members and the heart, so that the soul from its abounding gladness seems as a youth that knows not evil” (Rom. ix. p. 481).

=========================

How can a person tell that Jesus died on a cross and not on a straight up and down torture stake without a crossbeam ?

John 20:25
” … ‘We have seen the Lord.’ But he [Thomas] said to them, ‘Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and place my finger in the mark of the nails, and place my hand in his side, I will not believe.’ ”

If Jesus's hands had been nailed together on top there would have been only one nail, but notice that “nails” is plural because His hands were spread apart at either side.

March 15, 2010 at 10:53 pm#183564

terraricca

Participant

Quote (karmarie @ Mar. 16 2010,09:58)

Hi Selah and George

=====================

All from here;
http://www.defendingthebride.com/mc/cross.html

The Sign Of The Cross –
The Mark Of The Letter Taw

“… they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads” -(Revelation 9:4)

The Sign of the Cross is associated in idea with certain references in Scripture.

“Do not damage the land or the sea or the trees until we put the seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.”-(Revelation 7:3)

When a Catholic is Baptized, the priest makes the sign of the cross on the person's forehead three times. One for each Person of the Blessed Trinity.

“Then I looked, and lo, on Mount Zion stood the Lamb, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.”-(Revelation 14:1)

==========================

QUOTATIONS FROM EARLY CHURCH WRITERS

St. Augustine (354-430 AD):
“What is the sign (or seal) of Christ, but the cross of Christ ?” (T. iii. Tract. cxviii. in Toan. n. 5).

=========================

How can a person tell that Jesus died on a cross and not on a straight up and down torture stake without a crossbeam ?

If Jesus's hands had been nailed together on top there would have been only one nail, but notice that “nails” is plural because His hands were spread apart at either side.

hi Kar

about the sign ,I think it is spelled out for us but we do not see it,

to me it is not a physical mark,reason-we have only two options one his the world the other is God.

since the beast is the representation of the world ;look what it says in;Jas 1:27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world

see the last section of the verse,so i believe receiving the mark would be ,being polluted with the world affairs.

on the other hand receiving Gods seal would be the approval for staying faithful to him.100%

it may looks simple but truth is always simple ,it is getting around the truth that is complicated.

thats is what i beleive.

March 15, 2010 at 11:08 pm#183567

Participant

Hi T

That is what I always believed too! I believed the mark was an unseen one and it had to do with our heart and mind and actions, something most wouldnt think of, looking instead for an actual mark. Its interesting that:)

March 15, 2010 at 11:52 pm#183570

Participant

Hi Karmarie,

I do not believe quite the same as Georg, that the mark of the beast was the sign placed on the shields of Constantine's army.

I believe that to be unbiblical as that is not located on the right hand and/or forehead as stipulated in scripture.

I would think that 90% or more of any army is right handed. Therefore, they would hold the shield in their left hand and use their right for their weapon.

I am glad you noted Revelation 14:1

And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his
Father's name written in their foreheads.

Karmarie … is God your Father? Is God your Parent?

PARENT = 74

Oh my … another coincidence of 74.
Note that the number is … hundred (&) forty four (144)

HUNDRED = 74

FORTY FOUR = 144

Did I mention in an earlier post that the oldest existing manuscript of Revelation (Chester Beatty Papryi) this number 144 is NOT written out in long hand as … “one hundred and forty four”?

Instead, it is in the form of gematria wherein a letter represents a numeric value. In this ancient manuscript, three letters were used to indicate 100 40 4

SIMPLE = 74
ENGLISH = 74
GEMATRIA = 74

Selah … BTW “selah” occurs 74 times in the Bible.

As stated in the original title of this thread “COINCIDENCE OR CREATION” I believe that the unstated language that God intends us to use to “count the number of the beast” is simple English gematria wherein A = 1 B = 2 … Z = 26

I believe the evidence presented in the initial post of this thread supports that conclusion.

If someone can present as much evidence as I to support a different language, I would be interested in reading about it.

March 16, 2010 at 12:06 am#183571

Participant

Hi Selah, thats interesting about the Parent=74, I believe God is our Parent father, that here our Dads are earthly where our real Father is heavenly (I also believe in pre-existance because of an experience I had)

I still cant see despite numbers how a sign of the cross can be the mark of the beast as weather Catholic or Baptist or whatever denomination it is all followers of Christ. I used to do the mark of the cross.

March 16, 2010 at 1:53 am#183577

Participant

Karmarie,

Did you see what I was getting at from my post about the specific inspired word used to describe Jesus as being “numbered” with the transgressors?

This is why I believe God designed the names Jesus Lucifer and Muhammad to each sum at 74. HE knew it all in advance.

Regarding the false harlot church in Revelation.

We are told that it performs great signs, wonders, miracles “in the sight of men”.

There is no church in existence now or ever has been that has claimed as many “miracles” as the Church of Rome. If you research it, you will see that they number in the thousands. Even raising of the dead have been claimed!

Jesus turned water to wine, but Romanism surpasses that miracle by turning wine into the literal blood of Jesus, and then they “drink the blood”. Check out Revelation about the great harlot drinking the blood.

For they have shed the blood of saints (Inquisition) and prophets, and thou hast given them BLOOD TO DRINK for they are worthy. Rev 16:6.

I know it is hard to believe that such a great church could be the harlot, but we are told … if it were possible even the elect would be deceived.

I wont go into it at this time, but there is a simple explanation as to how the False Prophet “doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men. The key to understand this passage is “in the sight of men”.

And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those “MIRACLES” which he had power to do ……. Rev 13: 13-14.

Selah

March 16, 2010 at 2:20 am#183579

Participant

Sorry folks, after reading all of your comments, all I can say is; the blind leading the blind.
Georg

March 16, 2010 at 4:03 am#183591

Participant

Quote (Elizabeth @ Mar. 16 2010,16:20)

Sorry folks, after reading all of your comments, all I can say is; the blind leading the blind.
Georg

Yeah well so be it, and if I fall into a ditch My God will pick me up,

Look at all the threads here back and forth debates over Who God is Who Jesus is, all trying to prove a point, Trinity, non trinity, all different perceptions that is all, do you really think God will judge anyone based on that? God is understanding and has pity on us. Call me wrong I dont care.

Questions should be; do we commit major sin? Do we love God with all our Hearts and minds? Do we care about others?

Jesus said we will know His people cause they will have love amongst themselves. Love is deeper than just on the surface. Or just show or just for the sake of it, or just cause someone agrees, or just cause you have motives which are wrong.

Also Jesus said we need to become like children , well children are easily taught they listen, theyre innocent.

Just my thoughts for the day.

March 16, 2010 at 4:49 am#183603