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Pierre,
How do you resolve the issue that you both believe Enoch did not experience death and that he died. The scripture you quoted stated the former and you stated the later.
Georg,
Scripture declares that Elijah was taken up to heaven on a wirlwind. That is God's words you are disputing and not mine. I told you how I have been led to resolve the contradiction that scripture proposed but cry to God for understand and seek it as treasure and you will come to a godly solution. You have not yet arrived at that point.
Spiritual flesh and blood is not worldly flesh and blood though the two resemble one another they do not behave in the same manner.
Still seek godly understanding by going to God.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,03:40) Pierre, How do you resolve the issue that you both believe Enoch did not experience death and that he died. The scripture you quoted stated the former and you stated the later.
kerwindid you read what happen to Steven ???go and see
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 20 2010,20:47) Georg, Scripture declares that Elijah was taken up to heaven on a wirlwind. That is God's words you are disputing and not mine. I told you how I have been led to resolve the contradiction that scripture proposed but cry to God for understand and seek it as treasure and you will come to a godly solution. You have not yet arrived at that point.
Spiritual flesh and blood is not worldly flesh and blood though the two resemble one another they do not behave in the same manner.
Still seek godly understanding by going to God.
kerwinWhere in the Bible do you read about “spiritual flesh and blood”?
Hear is another scripture.Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
There is also this to consider.
Hbr 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Hbr 10:11 ¶ And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
Since Enoch and Elijah lived long before Christ, how were their sins forgiven, taken away?
No body saw Moses die, yet we know that God took him into the mountain, showed him the promised land, and than he died. We know this because the scripture tell us that.Deu 34:4 And the LORD said unto him, This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither.
Deu 34:5 ¶ So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
Deu 34:6 And he buried him in a valley in the land of Moab, over against Bethpeor: but no man knoweth of his sepulchre unto this day.
Georg
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,03:40) Pierre, How do you resolve the issue that you both believe Enoch did not experience death and that he died. The scripture you quoted stated the former and you stated the later.
kerwineven Peter did not taste dead because Jesus told him he would be changed in an instant,
Pierre
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 20 2010,22:36) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,03:40) Pierre, How do you resolve the issue that you both believe Enoch did not experience death and that he died. The scripture you quoted stated the former and you stated the later.
kerwineven Peter did not taste dead because Jesus told him he would be changed in an instant,
Pierre
Hold on there partner, where do you read that?Georg
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 21 2010,17:08) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 20 2010,22:36) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 21 2010,03:40) Pierre, How do you resolve the issue that you both believe Enoch did not experience death and that he died. The scripture you quoted stated the former and you stated the later.
kerwineven Peter did not taste dead because Jesus told him he would be changed in an instant,
Pierre
Hold on there partner, where do you read that?Georg
Georgyou are right it was Paul who talked of those instant change,
so i retract what i have said ,and i thank you to pick it up
and show it ,brother thank you again,truth as to be preserved at all cost to men.
Pierre
Pierre
Yes, it was Paul who spoke of the resurrection, but this being changed instantly without dying, is grossly misunderstood.
Georg
Pierre and Georg,
God willing I plan to address your points at a later time but my body craves sleep at the present.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 22 2010,08:34) Pierre and Georg, God willing I plan to address your points at a later time but my body craves sleep at the present.
kerwintake the time you need we be waiting
Pierre
Pierre,
Scripture explicitly states that Stephen was killed in Acts 11:19.
On the other hand.
Scripture explicitly states that Enoch did not experience death in Hebrews 11:5
So I do not see how you see the two as comparative. Could you please explain? Thank you.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2010,14:34) Pierre, Scripture explicitly states that Stephen was killed in Acts 11:19.
On the other hand.
Scripture explicitly states that Enoch did not experience death in Hebrews 11:5
So I do not see how you see the two as comparative. Could you please explain? Thank you.
kerwinif you read what it says in act about Steven ,well i can not help you ,
men only sees what he want s ,
Pierre
Quote (Baker @ Nov. 21 2010,09:53) Pierre Yes, it was Paul who spoke of the resurrection, but this being changed instantly without dying, is grossly misunderstood.
Georg
George,To make a statement without showing how you reached that conclusion aids your hearers none. Please explain what you have learned that you conclude what you do.
Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2010,03:27) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2010,14:34) Pierre, Scripture explicitly states that Stephen was killed in Acts 11:19.
On the other hand.
Scripture explicitly states that Enoch did not experience death in Hebrews 11:5
So I do not see how you see the two as comparative. Could you please explain? Thank you.
kerwinif you read what it says in act about Steven ,well i can not help you ,
men only sees what he want s ,
Pierre
Pierre,I know how I understand the explicit words of scripture but I do not know how you understand them. Only if your understanding is consistent with the gospel it is from God. When you choose not to let others hear it then it seems you fear it is not consistent with the truth.
Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2010,22:27) Quote (terraricca @ Nov. 23 2010,03:27) Quote (kerwin @ Nov. 23 2010,14:34) Pierre, Scripture explicitly states that Stephen was killed in Acts 11:19.
On the other hand.
Scripture explicitly states that Enoch did not experience death in Hebrews 11:5
So I do not see how you see the two as comparative. Could you please explain? Thank you.
kerwinif you read what it says in act about Steven ,well i can not help you ,
men only sees what he want s ,
Pierre
Pierre,I know how I understand the explicit words of scripture but I do not know how you understand them. Only if your understanding is consistent with the gospel it is from God. When you choose not to let others hear it then it seems you fear it is not consistent with the truth.
KerwinI understand what you are after,but it does not matter ,I have show you many scriptures on other subjects and I still waiting ,would your conclusion then also apply to you??
I have told you many things but it seems you do not built up you always fall back in your knowledge so it looks like you can not put one and two together so to speak,
you never will understand the scriptures truly until you give up all men made concepts ,
you have to read the bible from scratch,and read it with Gods will in mind,not yours,it may take more than ones or twice to read it in full,to really understand the plan of God ,not yours ,or the way you would like to spell it out ,many religion have than this but they all have different opinions but not the truth of God,
this you will have to do for yourself ,this would be between you and your God and creator,
in every book of the scriptures there is something to learn ,some more then others ,but wen you read it try to place you in the position of the one who speaks.
understand the powers involved,God-men
the many spirits involved
your faith presently varies from mine to much i think this is were I think we have a problem.and it seems you are not accepting changes scriptures or no scriptures just like Gene and Adam.there is plenty of good knowledge on this site it just as to be unscramble from the falsePierre
George,
The Spiritual body is mentioned in 1 Corinthians 15:44. In 1 Corinthians 15:39 Paul instructs us that all flesh is not the same when teaching us that a different body will be given us after the resurrection. Blood is not mentioned.
As to you question about Enoch and Elijah, God does not tell me the why’s and how’s of most things he does. Since that is the case I have to investigate and he will sometimes reveal these mysteries if I ask, seek, and take the opportunity to learn. I do know that both men were credited with righteousness and that they are made perfect with the believers. The believers did not exist until long after those two men ascended to heaven. I also know God is all knowing and knows what will be before it occurs. In the case of Enoch and Elijah it seems reasonable to believe that God knowing they perfected treaded them as if they already were perfected and forgave their sins. He did this as part of his righteous and loving plan as a sign of things to come.
I agree that Mosses was buried in the land of Moab but for the words of Jude to be true after that burial the archangel Michal and Satan fought over his remains and it seems that Michael won. From what scripture states that fight must have occurred after Joshua was written.
Lazarus died and was not subjected to judgment before Jesus returned him to life. That can be explained if Hebrews 9:27 is general or if his second life is considered part of his first. I favor the later. In the case of Enoch and Elijah their life on earth ended when they ascended to heaven and that seems to be equivalent to dying as for understanding Hebrews. Of course the passage in Hebrews could be speaking in generalities and Enoch and Elijah like Lazarus are exceptions to the rule.
kerwin
Group: Regular Members
Posts: 1184
Joined: Jan. 2007 Posted: July 17 2007,03:12——————————————————————————–
Quote (IM4Truth @ July 06 2007,21:57)
Gen. 5:24 “And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”What do you think, “God took him”, means?
Hi IM4truth,
FOr 300 years Enoch walked with God while he lived.
And then he was not any longer because God took him.
God took him means that Enoch died. Just as we all will die.Enoch died just like all humans must die.
Because God at one point moved Enoch out of harms way so that he wouldn’t see death at that time, people preach that he never saw death.Carefully read Hbr 11:1 thru Hbr 11:13.
You will find that
-by faith Abel offered God a more excellent sacrifice
-by faith Enoch was translated (moved) out of deaths path
-by faith Noah prepared an ark
-by faith Abraham obeyed when he was called
– by faith Sara became with childAnd then Hbr 11:13 clearly says
“These ALL died in faith….”All of these people (including Enoch) died in faith.
Tim
Pierre,
You choose to believe that Enoch died even though scripture does not explicitly state Enoch died as you choose to believe that that Hebrews 11:13 is precise while Hebrews 11:5 is figurative.
The word “Translated” does not mean “moved out of death’s path” unless you mean “to convey to heaven or a non-temporal condition”. Another meaning is “to bear, remove, or change from one place, state, form, or appearance to another”.
The basic idea is that Enoch was transferred from this life to another state of being so he would not experience death. That other state of being cannot be death as he would then experience death thus breaking scripture.
My problem comprehending what your point of view is attempting how one can even figuratively avoid experiencing death while literally doing so. I suppose that your argument based on the example of Steven is that Enoch fell asleep and was not aware of his own death thus like the many who die in their sleep he did not know he died. Am I correct?
I take Hebrews 11:5 literally and thus understand Hebrews 11:13 to be a general statement that is speaking of the vast majority of cases but obviously not Enoch’s. According to you Enoch actually received the promise at his death and thus it is not true to state that he did not receive it but only witnessed it from a distance. According to me after Enoch was transferred from this life to eternal life he received the reward, i.e. promise, of one who earnestly seeks God.
I could also argue that all those who die in the Lord will like Enoch be transferred to eternal life even though they experience death unlike him. Since this is so Hebrews 11:13 is means that all the examples did not receive what they were promised before being translated from this life.
My source is here.
kerwin
you say;;The basic idea is that Enoch was transferred from this life to another state of being so he would not experience death. That other state of being cannot be death as he would then experience death thus breaking scripture.
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why is it that it could not mean death? what does it mean not experience dead ??if I do not experience ;this would mean i would not have the knowledge of it ,right ? no?Pierre
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