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David
Quote I'm quite certain it's incredibly foolish to throw your hat in with them. David, it seems that you have thrown your hat in with them, because both Jehovah's Witnesses and Pharisees deny the deity of Christ.
Quote I prefer to go with Jesus words, where Jesus correctly said that he was the son of God. The Pharisees knew that the Son of God was also God. That is why they accused Jesus of blasphemy. Jesus also asserted His divinity with the words “I am”.
Mar 14:61 Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
Quote The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
No it doesn't CULT BUSTER, no it doesn't.Agree with the pharisees all you like. As I said, I'm going with Jesus words. Have fun with the pharisees. I imagine if you lived back then, you'b be trying to “bust” up the cult of the Christians, pointing out things that aren't there. You seem to agree with the pharisees and not Jesus. What a scary place for you to be in life.
(Mark 14:61) “. . .Are you the Christ the Son of the Blessed One?. . .”
“I am.”
Jesus was asked if he was the christ.
The word “I” indicates himself, Jesus.
The word “am” indicates: he had the quality of being, what he asked he was.
These aren't trick words. They're not complicated Is 1:18 type words that only Greeks and philosophers speak. They are very short easy to understand words. The question was a simple one. The answer, simple.
How very lost you are.
John 18:5-6 “They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am.” And Judas also, the one who betrayed Him, was standing with them. Therefore when He said to them, “I am,” they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
Why did they fall over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own: The divine name of “I AM”? And why would the soldiers fall backwards if not for the awesomeness of the words of Jesus?
Look again! It's in your face!
Therefore when He said to them, I am, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
What did Jesus say to them that forced them backward onto the ground. He used the divine name I AM in reference to Himself.
He was telling them that He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.” He could have made no stronger claim of deity.
As these words were uttered by Jesus, the mob staggered back; and the priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, dropped powerless to the ground. Their wicked hearts filled with terror. They could not for a moment stand upon their feet in the presence of the Divine Glory, and they fell like dead men to the ground.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
See the following.
John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
John 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.With solemn dignity Jesus answered the Pharasees, “Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.”
I AM. The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by Jesus. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent Jehovah, He who had been promised to Israel,
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Mic 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
See again.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Joh 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Joh 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Joh 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.The Jews obviously understood that Jesus was claiming to be God and tried to stone Him, because the punishment for blasphemy was death by stoning according to Lev. 24:16. Jesus did not dispute their accusation. He could have but He didn't, simply because Jesus was Jehovah God. He could have set the record straight by saying to the Jews, I am not claiming to be God, you misunderstood me. But Jesus did not correct them because He was in fact claiming to be the Divine God Jehovah.
See again.
The high priest knowing that the Son of the Blessed is God tried to “incriminate” Jesus by getting Him to proclaim His divinity.
Mar 14:61 Again the high priest asked him, and said unto him, Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed?
Mar 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mar 14:63 Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses?
Mar 14:64 Ye have heard the blasphemy: what think ye? And they all condemned him to be guilty of death.
Jesus answered the high priest “I AM”, and claimed to be the Son of the Blessed, whom the Jews understood to be God. The high priest accused Jesus of blasphemy because He used the name of God “I AM” as His own. When a man claims to be God it is blasphemy (John 10:33).
Jesus could have said to the high priest, you misunderstood me, I am not claiming to be God. But He didn't correct the high priest because Jesus was in fact God. Jesus was and is the self existent and eternal Jehovah God.
The claim of Jesus to be “sitting on the right hand of power” is a metaphor meaning that all authority and power belongs to Him.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Jesus said.
John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.Jesus Himself laid down the line – unless one believes Him for whom He says He is – the ego eimi, the great I AM – one will die in one's sins. There is no salvation in a false Christ. If we are to be united with Christ to have eternal life, then we must be united with the true Christ, not a false representation. It is out of love that Christ uttered John 8:24. We would do well to heed His words.
Don't be like the Pharisees and Jehovah's Witnesses! They both deny the deity of Christ!
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
Jesus was the one who said “I Am” from the burning bush.
The Word of God was speaking on both his and his Father's behalf and the angelic messenger in the bush.
Remember no man has ever seen or heard the Father.
This doesn't prove the trinity at all.
Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 30 2007,08:23) Jesus was the one who said “I Am” from the burning bush. The Word of God was speaking on both his and his Father's behalf and the angelic messenger in the bush.
Remember no man has ever seen or heard the Father.
This doesn't prove the trinity at all.
Hi MS,
Just a guess or do you have any added information to back such a statement up?
If he walked the earth before he was born, unlike any of us did then I hear a cry of
“not fair, he had advantages so how can we follow him?”
God is fair.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 30 2007,08:51) Quote (Morning Star @ Mar. 30 2007,08:23) Jesus was the one who said “I Am” from the burning bush. The Word of God was speaking on both his and his Father's behalf and the angelic messenger in the bush.
Remember no man has ever seen or heard the Father.
This doesn't prove the trinity at all.
Hi MS,
Just a guess or do you have any added information to back such a statement up?
If he walked the earth before he was born, unlike any of us did then I hear a cry of
“not fair, he had advantages so how can we follow him?”
God is fair.
Throw out theology, with it's endless philosophical barriers, for a second and focus on these words of Christ. Instead ask yourself why does your philosophy demand that Jesus would have and unfair advantage. He came to recall his Lost Sheep. He knew us. He was not Flesh then, the limitations, the emptying of himself to be as us makes “it fair”. Though I am not inclined even to consider that a doctrine of Fairness is actually needed.John 5:37-38″And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent.”
“No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him” (John 1:18).
Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.Colossians 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.I Timothy 1:17
Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.Hebrews 11:27
By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible.I John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.The Septuagint (LXX) renders Isaiah 9:6 as reading the Angel of Great Counsel. Brenton’s translation is:
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.
Verse 7 continues:
His government shall be great, and of his peace there is no end: it shall be upon the throne of David and upon his kingdom, to establish it and support it with judgment and with righteousness from henceforth and forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this.
We can see there is no trace of this later theology or assertion in the LXX. Here, he is the Aggelos, the Angel or Messenger of Great Counsel.
The term mighty god in Isaiah 9:6 is derived from the words mighty el and this can apply to any mighty one, even a human.
The same views emerge when we examine the concepts from the New Testament. The term everlasting father refers to the fatherhood of Messiah of which Paul says there are many in heaven and on earth and the reason why we bow to the Father for whom they are named.
Ephesians 3:14-15 14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, (KJV)
Ephesians 3:14-15 14 For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, (RSV)
The Septuagint is an older translation of the Masoretic text that was used by Jesus and the Apostles. They could have quoted the Masoretic proto type but they did not. They unanimously quoted the Septuagint. The masoretic text was not adopted by the Church until 600 AD.
JESUS HIMSELF QUOTES THE SEPTUAGINT IN PREFERENCE TO THE MASORETIC PROTO TYPE.
Hi ms,
Angel means messenger.
But Scripture is full of messengers that are not angels.
The sheep belong to God and Christ is the good shepherd.
Paul too regarded himself as a father of those he had brought to Christ.Quote Why did they fall over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own: The divine name of “I AM”? And why would the soldiers fall backwards if not for the awesomeness of the words of Jesus? Cult Buster, it was because of the situation. They came to him to arrest him and the normal responce of most would be to hide or run. Jesus didn't. He stepped forward and without hesitation said in answer to that question: I am.
If you are saying that anyone who used those words back then would cause someone to fall back, that is just wrong. But because of the situation, Jesus reaction was so unexpected that it must have frightened them.Quote He was telling them that He was God, using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.” He could have made no stronger claim of deity.
“He could have made no stronger claim of deity”?
They said: You are Jesus. He said: “I am.” If this is the strongest claim of deity you have, then you should simply abandon this trinity belief instantly.Either Jesus was answering there question in the affirmative by saying he was “Jesus” or he was giving them a hidden message.
If this possible hidden message is considered by you to be the strongest “claim of deity” well, what can I say. You have just destroyed your own beliefs, or at least shown how very pathetically week they are.
I am in shock when you say stuff like this or when Is 1:18 said that the alpha/Omega statements are the strongest possible proof.
Yet, nowhere is a direct statement made. Nowhere. All we have are hints at what may be. And you say this is the strongest indication of his deity!
What a sad state you are in. You have nothing. And are desparate and looking for hints to back up your beliefs and try to make them out to be strong proof, when they are apparently only hidden messages from Jesus.
I can't base my beliefs on what you consider hidden messages from Jesus.
David.
Quoting Cult Buster.
Quote Why did they fall over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own: The divine name of “I AM”? And why would the soldiers fall backwards if not for the awesomeness of the words of Jesus? David's response.
Quote Cult Buster, it was because of the situation. They came to him to arrest him and the normal responce of most would be to hide or run. Jesus didn't. He stepped forward and without hesitation said in answer to that question: I am.
If you are saying that anyone who used those words back then would cause someone to fall back, that is just wrong. But because of the situation, Jesus reaction was so unexpected that it must have frightened them.David, your response is very funny.
This is a typical JW reply when they cannot prove from scripture.
Look!
Joh 18:3 Judas then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. .
It is laughable to expect that this band of burly men armed with weapons would take fright at a humble Galilean and all fall over backwards just because He “stepped forward”.
The scripture does not even say that Jesus stepped forward while saying the words I am.
A very weak argument David. You're still dancing around the truth.
John 18:5-6 “They answered Him, “Jesus the Nazarene.” He said to them, “I am.” And Judas also, the one who betrayed Him, was standing with them. Therefore when He said to them, “I am,” they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
Look again!
Therefore when He said to them, I AM, they went backwards and fell upon the ground.”
They fell over backwards when Jesus used the name of Almighty God as His own: The divine name of “I AM”
These awesome words of Jesus pierced their wicked hearts revealing to His armed assailants that He was God, and using the name Jehovah Himself had revealed to Moses at the burning bush, “I AM.”
At these words of Jesus, the armed mob staggered back; and the priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, dropped powerless to the ground. Their wicked hearts were filled with terror in the presence of the Divine Glory.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
See Revelation 1:17-18 which says,
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; ; I am the first and the last:
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus, for He lived and was crucified and was resurrected and is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last: the title of God!
In verse18, Christ says that He has the keys of hell and of death.
Hell, translated from the word hades, which is the grave. So Christ is claiming to have the power to resurrect the dead from their graves.
See Rev 1:18
Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Jesus here is saying that because He lived, died and was resurrected and is alive for evermore, He also has the power to resurrect the dead from their graves and give them eternal life.
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
There is no doubt that the resurrected Christ is speaking here and He is claiming the title of God by saying saying “I am the first and the last.” Rev 1:17
Jesus used two of God's titles to describe Himself:
“I AM” and “the First and the Last”
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
Joh 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The name of God, given to Moses to express the idea of the eternal presence, had been claimed as His own by Jesus. He had announced Himself to be the self-existent One, He who had been promised to Israel, “whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity.” Micah 5:2,
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
It is a solemn truth that Jesus is Jehovah! The Great I AM. The First and The Last.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
Hi CB,
I agree Jesus was before Abraham and David, even Adam.
He is the beloved monogenes son of God.
How does that make him God himself?So Cult Buster have you solved the da vinci code yet, whatever that is?
Because you seem to think these hidden messages where people use ordinary words to convey normal simple language are hidden messages.
Tell us, what other hidden messages have you found?
David
Quote So Cult Buster have you solved the da vinci code yet, whatever that is? Because you seem to think these hidden messages where people use ordinary words to convey normal simple language are hidden messages.
Tell us, what other hidden messages have you found?
It seems David that when you resort to your usual sarcasm, it reveals that you are lacking scripture.
Perhaps you might understand from your own Jehovah's Witnesses translation the NWT.
Jesus is Jehovah: The Alpha and Omega: The First and the Last. (from NWT)
In Revelation 1:8. I am quoting from the Jehovah's Witness’s own Bible, and it reads, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, says Jehovah God. ”
Ask the Witness, “What does Alpha and Omega mean?” They'll reply, “The beginning and the end.” Then ask them, “How many Alphas and Omegas can you have?” They'll answer, “Only one.” They will agree that there is only one Alpha and Omega.
Then turn to Revelation 22:12-13 which says, “Look I am coming quickly, and the reward I give is with me….I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses, “Who do you say the Alpha and Omega is?” They will say, “Jehovah.” Now take a careful look. The Alpha and Omega in verse twelve is coming quickly. Let's see who is speaking in verse twelve.
Look at verse sixteen, “I Jesus, sent my angel to bear witness to you people of these things for the congregations. I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright morning star.”
It is Jesus speaking in verse twelve. If there is any doubt go to verse 20 which says, “He that bears witness of these things says, 'Yes; I am coming quickly' Amen come Lord Jesus.” So it is clear that the Alpha and the Omega in verse twelve is Jesus.
Here is a strong proof text that Jesus is God because both Jehovah and Jesus are called the Alpha and the Omega.
Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.”
Another pair of verses that are effective when used together are Isaiah 44:6 and Revelation 1:17-18.
Again from the Jehovah’s Witnesses own Bible.
Isaiah 44:6 says, “This is what Jehovah has said, 'The king of Israel and the Repurchaser of him, Jehovah of armies, I am the first and I am the last.'”
Ask the Jehovah’s Witnesses how many firsts and lasts can you have? It's obvious to anyone you can only have one first and one last. Ask them, “Who is the first and the last?” They will say, “Jehovah.”
Now turn to Revelation 1:17-18 which says, “Do not be fearful; I am the First and the Last, and the living one; and I became dead but look! I am living forever.”
Who is speaking here? Obviously, it is Jesus for He died but is now alive, and guess what? He is called the First and the Last.
Here again we see overwhelming evidence from the JW's own bible that Jesus is Jehovah God.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
The Jehovah's Witnesses own NWT bible proves that Jesus is Jehovah. It says in Isaiah 40:3 and I'm quoting from the NWT
Isaiah 40:3 “Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: 'Clear up the way of Jehovah, You people! Make the highway for our God through the desert plain straight,'”
Again, in the New World Translation (NWT) it says, speaking of John the Baptist's fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3
Matt 3:3 “This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in the words: Listen Someone is crying out in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way of Jehovah, You people! Make his roads straight.'”
So who did John the Baptist prepare the way for? Obviously it was Jesus. So Jesus is Jehovah according to the JW's own bible.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not” John 1:5
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
Jesus said.
John 8:24 …for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
I have a question CB. Please answer it.
Over and over and over again, we are told that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the annointed one of God.
If someone asked him if he was the Christ, (as is the case here) how should he have responded if he wanted to indicate that he was?
Most people would say 'yes' or 'yes, I am.'
1. What should Jesus have said if he wanted to indicate that he was the Christ?
2. Second question: What do you think the phrase: “I am that I am” means, or more precisely, what do you think the Hebrew words mean that were translated into that phrase?
3. Have you found any other hidden messages where certain words are said that normally indicate one thing, but because they are secret 'hidden messages' actually indicate some secret message? Just curious.
“God’s reply in Hebrew was: ’Eh·yeh́ ’Asheŕ ’Eh·yeh́. Some translations render this as “I AM THAT I AM.” However, it is to be noted that the Hebrew verb ha·yah́, from which the word ’Eh·yeh́ is drawn, does not mean simply “be.” Rather, it means “become,” or “prove to be.” The reference here is not to God’s self-existence but to what he has in mind to become toward others.
That this meant no change in God’s name, but only an additional insight into God’s personality, is seen from his further words:“This is what you are to say to the sons of Israel, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name to time indefinite, and this is the memorial of me to generation after generation.” (Ex 3:15; compare Ps 135:13; Ho 12:5.)
The name Jehovah comes from the Hebrew verb ha·wah́, “become,” and actually means “He Causes to Become.” This reveals Jehovah as the One who, with progressive action, causes himself to become the Fulfiller of promises. Thus he always brings his purposes to realization. Only the true God could rightly and authentically bear such a name.”
(it-2 p. 12)Cult Buster do you hold only to your King James Version? Is that the best translation? Would you say you agree with everything it translates?
David
Quote Cult Buster do you hold only to your King James Version? Is that the best translation? Would you say you agree with everything it translates? The KJV I believe is one of the better translations available, though I use several.
The Jehovah's Witnesses deny that Jesus is God. So, when it comes to translating and interpreting Bible verses that show the deity of Jesus, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society will go to great lengths to support their false presupposition.
Often they will translate verses in a way that is consistent with their belief system. In the Jehovah's Witness Bible, known as the New World Translation (NWT), John 8:58 is a verse that they have translated in a manner deliberately consistent with their theology.
In John 8:56-59 says, “'Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.' 57The Jews therefore said to Him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' 58Jesus said to them, 'Truly truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.' 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.” NASB
The issue at hand is the phrase “I am” in verse 58. The Jehovah's Witnesses have “translated” the Greek present tense (“I am”) into the English perfect tense (“I have been”) which is more consistent with their theological position that Jesus is not God in flesh.
In the Greek, the words are “ego eimi.” Literally, this is “I am.” “Ego eimi” is the present active indicative first person singular (I am), not the perfect active indicative first person singular (I have been). It would seem that the natural and correct translation into the English is “I am.” But the NWT does not translate this into the present tense. Why? I am firmly convinced it is because translating John 8:58 as “I am” would be too close to God identifying Himself as the “I am” in Exodus 3:14.
“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14).
The Jehovah's Witness will claim the NWT is legitimate since a small minority of other Bibles have translations other than “I AM” in John 8:58. But from what I have seen of these other translations, they are intended to be looser renderings of the Greek and therefore take more liberties in translation.
In fact, the overwhelming majority of Bible translations render it as I am. Here are just a few.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am,” (ASV).
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am,” (KJV).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am,” (NASB).
“I tell you the truth,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” (NIV).
“Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM,” (NKJV).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am,” (RSV).
“Truly, truly, before Abraham was, I am,” (NLT).
“Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am,” (RSV)
“Verily, verily I say unto you, before Abraham was, I am!” (KJ21).
“Verily, verily, I say to you, Before Abraham's coming — I am,' (YLT).
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am,” (Darby).
“Antes que Abraham fuese, yo soy,” (Spanish) – uses “yo soy” which is “I am.”
“En vérité, en vérité, je vous le dis, avant qu'Abraham fût, je suis,” (French) “je suis” which is “I am.”The Watchtower's own interlinear translates John 8:58 as “I am” even though in the NWT it renders it as “I have been.” In this, they admit that the Greek is indeed, “I am,” the present tense. They cannot deny this.
“'Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.' 57The Jews therefore said to Him, 'You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?' 58Jesus said to them, 'Truly truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.' 59Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple.”
The Pharisees didn't speak English. They spoke Hebrew and Greek. In the Greek text, Jesus uses the present tense. It was this Greek present tense (I am) that upset the Pharisees (and Jehovah's Witnesses) so much, not the perfect tense (I have been).
If Jesus were really saying to the Jews, “I have been,” then why would the Pharisees want to kill him (v. 59)? Since blasphemy, or calling yourself God, was punishable by death, isn't this a confirmation that Jesus was saying “I am” and that the Jew's understood what he was saying? Absolutely! That is why the best translation is simply, “I am.”
I also need to mention that in Mark 14:62, where Jesus answered the High Priest who said, “Art thou the Christ, the Son of the Blessed? 62And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. 63Then the high priest rent his clothes, and saith, What need we any further witnesses? 64Ye have heard the blasphemy. . .”Jesus responded with “I am” which provoked the authorities and prompted them to seek death. This is particularly revealing when we compare John 10:34 where the Pharisees want to kill Jesus because they said He was making Himself equal to God. The phrase, “I AM” in these contexts would surely imply that.
Undoubtedly, Jesus knew the difference between “I am” and “I have been.” Jesus did not use the form “I have been” , but used the form “I am.” It is the form “I AM” that the Pharisees (and Jehovah's Witnesses) were upset about.Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am
He used a past tense verb when describing Abraham (“before Abraham was…”), but a present tense verb when describing Himself (“I am”). He deliberately brought attention to the words, “I am.” The Pharisees understood this and was indeed claiming to be Jehovah God, and this was the last straw for them.
The Jehovah's Witnesses Watchtower Bible and Tract Society teaches its members to deny the deity of Christ. From this base, any and all affirmations to Jesus' deity will be undermined in whatever way possible. John 8:58 is just another example of this bias.
Jesus said:
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am John 8:58“And God said to Moses, “I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14).
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am, ye shall die in your sins.
The Light was shining in darkness; but “the darkness apprehended it not.” John 1:5
Quote The KJV I believe is one of the better translations available, though I use several. So you would agree with it when it says at Ps 83:18 that “Jehovah” alone is the most high?
If you so fondly cling to the KJV and it says that Jehovah is the most high, I'm curious why you are not telling others this?
Also, I asked:
I have a question CB. Please answer it.
Over and over and over again, we are told that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the annointed one of God.
If someone asked him if he was the Christ, (as is the case here) how should he have responded if he wanted to indicate that he was?
Most people would say 'yes' or 'yes, I am.'
1. What should Jesus have said if he wanted to indicate that he was the Christ?
2. Second question: What do you think the phrase: “I am that I am” means, or more precisely, what do you think the Hebrew words mean that were translated into that phrase?
3. Have you found any other hidden messages where certain words are said that normally indicate one thing, but because they are secret 'hidden messages' actually indicate some secret message? Just curious.
Adam Pastor, first page of this thread, said:
Concerning “I am” …
(John 9:8-9) The neighbours therefore, and they which before had seen him that he was blind, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9 Some said, This is he: others said, He is like him: but he said, I am he.
The same Greek ego eimi as in John 8.58, etc!
There is absolutely no connection between Exo 3.14 & John 8.58. The simplest proof of this is to look at the Greek of Exo 3.14 in the LXX.
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, ego eimi ho ohn: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, ho ohn hath sent me unto you.
If Jesus was indeed identifying himself with the One in Exo 3.14; John would have recorded him saying …
“Before Abraham, ego eimi ho ohn” OR
“Before Abraham, ho ohn”Jesus said no such this!
Jesus used the phrase ego eimi to identify himself as the promised Messiah (just as he did in 4.26,8:24,28)
In like manner, the man who was healed uses the same phrase to identify himself as the one who was blind.
ego eimi is equivalent to It's me!I'm curious if you can comment on this Cult Buster.
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