Trinity Debate Zechariah 12:10

Subject:  Zechariah 12:10 proves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: April 22 2007
Debaters:  Is 1: 18 & t8

 


Is 1:18

Okay short and sweet this time….

In the below passage Zechariah records a quite amazing prophecy:

Zechariah 12:10
“I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

What’s significant (in the context of this debate submission) about the highlighted statement above is that the preceding verses (1, 4, 6 and 9) unmistakably bear out that it was a prophecy made by YHWH, and would be fulfilled by YHWH. YHWH foretold that they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) will look upon “Me” whom they (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) pierced.

Zechariah 12:1-9
1The burden of the word of the LORD [YHWH] concerning Israel. Thus declares the LORD [YHWH] who stretches out the heavens, lays the foundation of the earth, and forms the spirit of man within him, 2″Behold, I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that causes reeling to all the peoples around; and when the siege is against Jerusalem, it will also be against Judah. 3″It will come about in that day that I will make Jerusalem a heavy stone for all the peoples; all who lift it will be severely injured And all the nations of the earth will be gathered against it. 4″In that day,” declares the LORD [YHWH], “I will strike every horse with bewilderment and his rider with madness. But I will watch over the house of Judah, while I strike every horse of the peoples with blindness. 5″Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘A strong support for us are the inhabitants of Jerusalem through the LORD of hosts, their God.’ 6″In that day I [YHWH] will make the clans of Judah like a firepot among pieces of wood and a flaming torch among sheaves, so they will consume on the right hand and on the left all the surrounding peoples, while the inhabitants of Jerusalem again dwell on their own sites in Jerusalem. 7″The LORD also will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem will not be magnified above Judah. 8″In that day the LORD will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and the one who is feeble among them in that day will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the LORD before them. 9″And in that day I [YHWH] will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

There is no mention of a secondary identity in the Zechariah’s predictive prophecy. The “me” in “they will look on Me whom they have pierced” is YHWH. In the immediately-preceding verse YHWH affirmed “I will set about to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem”, which of course only the Almighty could accomplish. With that in mind, please consider Who it was that John taught fulfilled this prophecy:

John 19:33-37
33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

According to John, Zechariah 10:12 is a predictive reference to the piercing (vs 34) incurred by Yeshua during His crucifixion (“For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture” – v 36). Let me be as clear as I can here t8: Only YHWH could fulfill this prophecy, because it was made specifically by YHWH (through Zechariah) and of YHWH. It cannot be fulfilled by proxy, the piercing was to be incurred by YHWH and it is YHWH that would be looked upon. No one else, the language in the Zechariah text is unambiguous and does not allow for it. John unequivocally tells us that Yeshua literally fulfilled the Zech 12:10 prophecy at Calvary, but crucially He fulfilled it after His body had expired (v 33). The Roman soldiers and other bystanders (the inhabitants of Jerusalem) looked upon His lifeless body, but John and Zechariah tell us that this was the body of YHWH. So, the obvious implication here is: even His dead body was considered utterly divine, it was the body of YHWH. So any argument linking Yeshua’s deity with His indwelling by the Holy Spirit is vaporised in this verse.

If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yahshua fulfills it, then He is YHWH. There is no other acceptable conclusion.

Now some questions for you t8:

Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

Q2) According to John’s inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

Blessings



t8

Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.

I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.

It says “…They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child,…”

Grammatically, the “Me” and the “him” cannot refer to the same individual can it.

It is clearly talking about 2, not 1. Otherwise it would say: “They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for ME as one mourns for an only child,”. Of course it doesn’t say that, so the “him” is obviously different to the “me”.

Q2) According to John’s inspired-understanding, was Yeshua in fact the “me” in the Zech 12:10 prophecy (John 19:37)? If not, please explain.

Is Yeshua the ME or the HIM? I say he is the HIM. If Yeshua was both, then the language would use ME or HIM, but not both.

Q3) If YHWH makes a prophecy that only YHWH can fulfill, and Yeshua fulfills it, is it reasonable to conclude that Yeshua is YHWH? If not why not?

YHWH didn’t make this prophecy about himself from what I can see. We know that YHWH is not a man and he doesn’t have bones and blood. It is rediculous to believe that God whom the universe cannot contain squeezed himself into a human body. Rather, it was the Word that became flesh and the apostles beheld his glory as the son of God. Even if YHWH did make the prophecy about himself, we know that YHWH sent his son and it was YHWH’s will that his son drink the cup that was prepared for him. So if YHWH was in Christ, then to that degree was YHWH the one being punished. But Christ did say “My God My God, why hast thou forsaken me”.

But the way it appears to me on the outset is that they would look to YHWH, because of the HIM who was pierced.

NOTE: My rebuttal is based on the English version of these verses. It is possible that the English version may not be that clear or even accurate. If this is the case, then a more accurate version of the Zechariah verse could change what I have written.

Anyway, it is interesting to note that John 19:33-37 also refers to another prophecy i.e., NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.”
When we look at that prophecy, we see clearly that the YHWH (LORD) is one and the one whom not a bone shall be broken is another.

It is obvious to all that the bolded verses below are either or both Yeshua and YHWH. But the interesting part is that we cannot confuse Yeshua with actually being YHWH.

Psalm 22:1-19
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?
Why are you so far from saving me,
so far from the words of my groaning?

2 O my God, I cry out by day, but you do not answer,
by night, and am not silent.

3 Yet you are enthroned as the Holy One;
you are the praise of Israel.

4 In you our fathers put their trust;
they trusted and you delivered them.

5 They cried to you and were saved;
in you they trusted and were not disappointed.

6 But I am a worm and not a man,
scorned by men and despised by the people.

7 All who see me mock me;
they hurl insults, shaking their heads:

“He trusts in the LORD;
let the LORD rescue him.
Let him deliver him,
since he delights in him.”

9 Yet you brought me out of the womb;
you made me trust in you
even at my mother’s breast.

10 From birth I was cast upon you;
from my mother’s womb you have been my God.

11 Do not be far from me,
for trouble is near
and there is no one to help.

12 Many bulls surround me;
strong bulls of Bashan encircle me.

13 Roaring lions tearing their prey
open their mouths wide against me.

14 I am poured out like water,
and all my bones are out of joint.
My heart has turned to wax;
it has melted away within me.

15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth;
you lay me in the dust of death.

16 Dogs have surrounded me;
a band of evil men has encircled me,
they have pierced my hands and my feet.

17 I can count all my bones;
people stare and gloat over me.

18 They divide my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing.

19 But you, O LORD, be not far off;
O my Strength, come quickly to help me.

So we have 3 reasons why YHWH cannot be Yeshua in Zech 12:10.

  1. Me and Him cannot be the same individual grammatically speaking.
  2. Psalm 22:1-19 the other quoted scripture by John, clearly indentifies Yeshua and YHWH as different identities.
  3. There is no contradiction in truth.
 

So an explanation that fits with John, Zechariah, and David (or Psalm writer) is that YHWH and Yeshua are 2 different identities and because of him who was pierced (Yeshua), people would look to YHWH (his God). This has come to pass as many now look to YHWH because of Yeshua’s sacrifice. See the below verse as an immediate example of fulfillment.

Acts 2:36-39
36 “Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”


Discussion

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  • #51846
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Nick

    Quote
    Hi Is 1.18,
    If you had not built on the trinity theory would you be searching for such unusual verses and trying to show the Son of God could be called by the Father's holy name?

    Zec 12:10  And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    Here in Zechariah, it is Jehovah whom is pierced, for the scripture says “they shall look upon me whom they have pierced…” Then in John 19:34 it is Jesus who is pierced. So it is evident that Jesus is Jehovah.

    Joh 19:34  But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.

    Researching more on Zechariah 12:10 it discloses some interesting points.
    This is what is found in the Jewish Tanakh and also with the literal translation –

             

                v'shaphak ( I will pour)
                 ole (upon)
                 bayeet (house)
                 daveed (David)
                 v'ole (and upon)
                 yoshab ( inhabitants)
                 yerushalayam ( Jerusalem)
                 ruach (spirit)
                 khane ( grace)
                 v'takhnoonim ( and supplications)
                 v'haybatoo (and they shall look)
                 aleahee (upon me)
                 ate ( not translated in English)
                 ahsher (whom)
                 dahqahroo (they have pierced)
                 sawfahdoo ( and they shall mourn)
                 ahlahyev ( for him)
                 k'mispade (as one laments)
                 ahl (for)
                 hayasheed (the only)
                 v'hamare (and shall be in bitterness)
                 ahlahee (for him)
                 k'hamare (as one in bitterness)
                 ahl (for)
                 ha bekore (the first born)

    Looking at the above Hebrew to English translation and then comparing it to the KJV Bible we find that the English follows exactly as it is in the KJV Bible which renders a perfect translation.

    And “I” will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and supplications: and they shall look upon “ME” whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for the only , and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for  firstborn.

    As Is 1:18 quoted

    Quote
    1. NIV
    10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

    2. NASB
    10″I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

    3. KJV
    10And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    4. NKJV
    10 “And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.

    5. KJ21
    10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look upon Me  whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    6. ESV
    10″And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.

    7. AMP
    10And I will pour out upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace or unmerited favor and supplication. And they shall look [earnestly] upon Me  Whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for Him as one who is in bitterness for his firstborn.

    8. MESS
    10-14″Next I'll deal with the family of David and those who live in Jerusalem. I'll pour a spirit of grace and prayer over them. They'll then be able to recognize me as the One they so grievously wounded—that piercing spear-thrust! And they'll weep—oh, how they'll weep! Deep mourning as of a parent grieving the loss of the firstborn child.

    9. NLT
    10 “Then I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on the family of David and on the people of Jerusalem. They will look on me whom they have pierced and mourn for him as for an only son. They will grieve bitterly for him as for a firstborn son who has died.

    10. ASV
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they shall look unto me  whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his first-born.

    11. YLT
    10And I have poured on the house of David, And on the inhabitant of Jerusalem, A spirit of grace and supplications, And they have looked unto Me whom they pierced, And they have mourned over it, Like a mourning over the only one, And they have been in bitterness for it, Like a bitterness over the first-born.

    12. DARBY
    10And I will pour upon the house of David and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem the spirit of grace and of supplications; and they shall look on me whom they pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for an only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

    13. NIRV
    10 “I will pour out a spirit of grace and prayer on David's family line. I will also send it on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look to me. I am the one they have pierced. They will sob over me as someone sobs over an only child who has died. They will be full of sorrow over me, just like someone who is full of sorrow over an oldest son.

    14. NIVUK
    10 And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

    15. TNIV
    10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the on
    e they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.

    While only 2 translated it this way:

    1. NLV
    10 “I will pour out the Spirit of loving-favor and prayer on the family of David and on those who live in Jerusalem. They will look on Him Whose side they cut. They will cry in sorrow for Him, as one cries for an only son. They will cry much over Him, like those who have lost their first-born son.

    2. CEV
    10I, the LORD, will make the descendants of David and the people of Jerusalem feel deep sorrow and pray when they see the one they pierced with a spear. They will mourn and weep for him, as parents weep over the death of their only child or their first-born.

    But I'm sure you'll agree that the NLV and CEV don't pretend to be literal translations…..

    Literally thousands of English Bible translators, the vast majority of them and the best in the business, deem the word “me” should be used in Zechariah 12:10. The onus is on you to show WHY they were wrong to think this.

    Jesus is the Mighty Jehovah who was pierced :O

    Back to the drawing board again Nick . Off you go! :)

    #51861
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CB,
    God is invisible Spirit. God has no human body. God cannot die.
    Your God is too small.

    #51919
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ May 10 2007,21:32)
    t8 hasn't conceded. He thinks that (if the translation is correct) that there is a ME and HIM. ME appears to be Yahweh, HIM appears to be Christ given that supposition.

    I do not say that they are both the same person given the grammatical structure in English. It seems obvious to me that anyone with a reasonable grasp of English would agree that ME and HIM are 2 different people/identities.

    I am also open to the English translation being wrong or inadequate (as is possible) and I do have my suspicion due to the grammatical inaccuracies that appear to be present. If I wrote that verse in school I think that I would be marked down because of the grammar.

    But as it stands anyone who has a reasonable grasp of English grammar would struggle to see ME and HIM as the same person, and if I had to choose which one was Christ, it seems obvious that it is HIM.


    He he…the problem you still have t8 is that it was the part of the Zechariah verse with the “me” reference (the pronoun you affirm refers to YHWH) in it that John quoted and applied to Yeshua, not the “Him” part!!

    Here, look for yourself:

    John 19:33-37
    33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

    Cf.

    Zechariah 12:10
    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

    So, even if two identites are in view in Zech 12:10, the part of the verse with the wrong one (for your argument to be plausible) is quoted by John.

    :)

    Quote
    I also think that what WhatIsTrue says is very reasonable too. i.e., that John translates it a certain way so therefore we have a guide as to what Zechariah was saying. That is if we believe that what John wrote was correct.


    This has been addressed in a previous post. Jewish NT writers generally have a proclivity to use a little licence (it's called “targum”) when they quote OT passages. It's likely John made a slight alteration of the Hebrew text to facilitate his personal understanding of the Zechariah passage. John recognised that the “me” in the “they will look on Me whom they have pierced” part of the Zech 12:10 prophecy was Yeshua, and his targum reflected this.

    T8, were the teams of highly-qualified translators involved in translating the 15 English versions of the Bible (including the NIV, NASB, KJV, NKJV and ESV) that I cited unequivocally wrong to render Zech 12:10 with the first person pronoun “me”?

    If so, why? Let's have some evidence.

    #51920
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2007,21:01)
    Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.


    Quote (t8 @ May 06 2007,21:58)
    I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.


    T8, the key point is that it was the “me” in the Zech 12:10 verse that the prophecy was applied to, the “me” that you accept is YHWH. We both agree that it was YHWH that Zechariah recorded would be “pierced” and “looked upon”. Therefore, it is YHWH that MUST fulfill these things. If an identity other than YHWH fulfills it then we have a problem t8. The default position is: YHWH has prophesied falsely, YHWH has told a lie. If YHWH makes an unconditional prophecy it MUST come to pass.

    This is the issue that you have not addressed.

    #51921
    charity
    Participant

    Well my eye's are looking AT ONE Hand writer only that reports christ was pierced in His “side”?

    The word Pierced is only connected with Johns report of the eye witnesses;
    and pierced is only refired to his feet and hands in prophecy by David?

    KJV Concordance for -PIERCED- Help Using the Search Tool
    PIERCED occurs 8 times in 8 verses in the KJV
    Page 1 / 1 (Jdg 5:26 – Rev 1:7)

    Jdg 5:26 She put her hand to the nail, and her right hand to the workmen's hammer; and with the hammer she smote Sisera, she smote off his head, when she had pierced and stricken through his temples.  

    Job 30:17 My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest.  
    Psa 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.  

    Zec 12:10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.  

    Jhn 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.  

    Jhn 19:37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.  

    1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.  
    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    #52032
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi charity,
    John we trust.
    You??

    #52818
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    To Is 1:18 .

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 12 2007,15:20)

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ April 22 2007,21:01)
    Q1) Was the “me” that was foretold to be pierced and looked upon by the inhabitant of Jerusalem in Zech 12:10 a refererence to YHWH? If not, please provide lexical evidence to the contrary.


    Quote (t8 @ May 06 2007,21:58)
    I think the ME is YHWH. The one who is to be pierced (HIM) is Yeshua.


    T8, the key point is that it was the “me” in the Zech 12:10 verse that the prophecy was applied to, the “me” that you accept is YHWH. We both agree that it was YHWH that Zechariah recorded would be “pierced” and “looked upon”. Therefore, it is YHWH that MUST fulfill these things. If an identity other than YHWH fulfills it then we have a problem t8. The default position is: YHWH has prophesied falsely, YHWH has told a lie. If YHWH makes an unconditional prophecy it MUST come to pass.

    This is the issue that you have not addressed.


    Say what?

    I will address it again.

    I said there are 2 in the English translated text of Zechariah 12:10. There is a ME and HIM. It appears that you are ignoring this fact.

    YHWH appears to be the ME in the text and Yeshua appears to be the HIM, who is also the one who is pierced, i.e., his son.

    You are waiting for me to say that YHWH is the one being pierced. That is a ridiculous statement and you will be waiting till the cows come home. I take it you don't have cows? If you do, then you will be waiting longer.

    It is addressed. ME and HIM. HIM is the one who was pierced.

    Perhaps you could address for me and those who read this who the ME and HIM are?

    Are they YHWH and Christ?
    Just YHWH?
    Just Christ?
    Or what?

    Thanks.

    #52820
    942767
    Participant

    Hi:

    Jesus said: Matt. 25:43 I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 25:44 Then they too will answer, 42  ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?’ 25:45 Then he will answer them, 43  ‘I tell you the truth, 44  just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.

    We the body of Christ are the Holy Temple of God, and so yes, in that they pierced God's Body, they did pierce YHWH.  Jesus was sent by Him as his representative, and so in all that they did unto Jesus, they were in essence doing what they did to God.

    God Bless

    #52821
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi 942767.

    This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?

    #52823
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,13:34)
    Hi 942767.

    This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?


    Hi t8:

    I read this as me and him being the same person.

    God Bless

    #52843
    Is 1:18
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,12:04)
    Say what?

    I will address it again.

    I said there are 2 in the English translated text of Zechariah 12:10. There is a ME and HIM. It appears that you are ignoring this fact.

    YHWH appears to be the ME in the text and Yeshua appears to be the HIM, who is also the one who is pierced, i.e., his son.

    You are waiting for me to say that YHWH is the one being pierced. That is a ridiculous statement and you will be waiting till the cows come home. I take it you don't have cows? If you do, then you will be waiting longer.

    It is addressed. ME and HIM. HIM is the one who was pierced.

    Perhaps you could address for me and those who read this who the ME and HIM are?

    Are they YHWH and Christ?
    Just YHWH?
    Just Christ?
    Or what?

    Thanks.


    Lets break the passage down:

    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication,

    This is YHWH speaking, it is YHWH and YHWH alone that pours out a Spirit if grace and supplication…..

    …so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced;

    This is also YHWH, a new person has not been introduced into the text. YHWH is making a prophecy concerning Himself.

    and they will mourn for Him,

    Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, mourning over?

    It's obvious. The one who was pierced.

    ….as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

    Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, “weeping bitterly” over?

    It's obvious. The one who was pierced.

    If you introduce a new identity into the text then the whole passage is rendered unintelligible and the theme which is being developed falls to pieces.

    The “me” and “him” are the same person. I guess the “Him” is used because its written from the perspective of the inhabitants. But to be honest it's utterly irrelevant anyway, as John only quotes the part of the verse with the “me” reference in it:

    John 19:33-37
    33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

    Why can't you just accept the plain, commonsense interpretation of John 19:37 t8? Why do you cherry pick the scriptures that agree with your views and twist the rest to conform to your theology?

    Conform to scripture t8. Yeshua is YHWH.

    Blessings
    :)

    #52844
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi Is 1.18,
    So this one verse for you denies that Jesus is the monogenes Son of God?

    #52858
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (942767 @ May 23 2007,08:46)

    Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,13:34)
    Hi 942767.

    This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?


    Hi t8:

    I read this as me and him being the same person.

    God Bless


    Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion and thanks for expressing it. But ME and HIM in any other book would refer to 2 people.

    My conclusion is that it is 2 people/identities, or the translation is dodgy. I don't know which myself, but neither give support to the Trinity doctrine which is the reason for debating this.

    I cannot accept that ME and HIM are the same person unless it is about the same person but seen through the eyes of 2 people.

    When you talk about yourself you use the word ME, but what would your hearer think if you said the following:

    “The person that came yesterday was ME, and the person who came today was HIM”.

    Who would think that you were talking about yourself in both instances? Probably nobody.

    #52971
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    t8

    Quote
    I cannot accept that ME and HIM are the same person unless it is about the same person but seen through the eyes of 2 people.

    When you talk about yourself you use the word ME, but what would your hearer think if you said the following:

    “The person that came yesterday was ME, and the person who came today was HIM”.

    Who would think that you were talking about yourself in both instances? Probably nobody.

    Hi t8. Unless I'm mistaken, it seem that in the following quote of yours, you are referring to yourself in both the 1st and 3rd person. ??? ???  Are you both the same person?

    Quote (t8 @ May 11 2007,01:32)

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 08 2007,14:24)
    Q) Did YHWH declare, using the first person singular pronoun “me”, in Zechariah 12:10 that He would be “pierced” and “looked upon”?

    A) Yes. (t8 has conceded to this)


    t8 hasn't conceded. He thinks that (if the translation is correct) that there is a ME and HIM. ME appears to be Yahweh, HIM appears to be Christ given that supposition.

    I do not say that they are both the same person given the grammatical structure in English. It seems obvious to me that anyone with a reasonable grasp of English would agree that ME and HIM are 2 different people/identities.

                              ???  ???  t8. Are you both the same person?

    #52989

    Quote (Is 1:18 @ May 22 2007,20:00)

    Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,12:04)
    Say what?

    I will address it again.

    I said there are 2 in the English translated text of Zechariah 12:10. There is a ME and HIM. It appears that you are ignoring this fact.

    YHWH appears to be the ME in the text and Yeshua appears to be the HIM, who is also the one who is pierced, i.e., his son.

    You are waiting for me to say that YHWH is the one being pierced. That is a ridiculous statement and you will be waiting till the cows come home. I take it you don't have cows? If you do, then you will be waiting longer.

    It is addressed. ME and HIM. HIM is the one who was pierced.

    Perhaps you could address for me and those who read this who the ME and HIM are?

    Are they YHWH and Christ?
    Just YHWH?
    Just Christ?
    Or what?

    Thanks.


    Lets break the passage down:

    “I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace and of supplication,

    This is YHWH speaking, it is YHWH and YHWH alone that pours out a Spirit if grace and supplication…..

    …so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced;

    This is also YHWH, a new person has not been introduced into the text. YHWH is making a prophecy concerning Himself.

    and they will mourn for Him,

    Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, mourning over?

    It's obvious. The one who was pierced.

    ….as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping over a firstborn.

    Who are they, the inhabitants of Jerusalem, “weeping bitterly” over?

    It's obvious. The one who was pierced.

    If you introduce a new identity into the text then the whole passage is rendered unintelligible and the theme which is being developed falls to pieces.

    The “me” and “him” are the same person. I guess the “Him” is used because its written from the perspective of the inhabitants. But to be honest it's utterly irrelevant anyway, as John only quotes the part of the verse with the “me” reference in it:

    John 19:33-37
    33but coming to Jesus, when they saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs. 34But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out. 35And he who has seen has testified, and his testimony is true; and he knows that he is telling the truth, so that you also may believe. 36For these things came to pass to fulfill the Scripture, “NOT A BONE OF HIM SHALL BE BROKEN.” 37And again another Scripture says, “THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED.

    Why can't you just accept the plain, commonsense interpretation of John 19:37 t8? Why do you cherry pick the scriptures that agree with your views and twist the rest to conform to your theology?

    Conform to scripture t8. Yeshua is YHWH.

    Blessings
    :)


    Amen Is 1:18

    Totally unambiguous!

    Good points!

    :D

    #53169
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,22:39)

    Quote (942767 @ May 23 2007,08:46)

    Quote (t8 @ May 22 2007,13:34)
    Hi 942767.

    This could be the case. But what is your take on the ME and HIM mentioned in the text. Do you think that 2 are mentioned?


    Hi t8:

    I read this as me and him being the same person.

    God Bless


    Fair enough, you are entitled to your opinion and thanks for expressing it. But ME and HIM in any other book would refer to 2 people.

    My conclusion is that it is 2 people/identities, or the translation is dodgy. I don't know which myself, but neither give support to the Trinity doctrine which is the reason for debating this.

    I cannot accept that ME and HIM are the same person unless it is about the same person but seen through the eyes of 2 people.

    When you talk about yourself you use the word ME, but what would your hearer think if you said the following:

    “The person that came yesterday was ME, and the person who came today was HIM”.

    Who would think that you were talking about yourself in both instances? Probably nobody.


    Hi All:

    When the Jesus appeared to the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus, he asks the Apostle Paul why he is persecuting him.  We know that Paul was not literally persecuting him but that he was persecuting the church.

    Acts 9      
    9:1
    And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,  
    9:2
    And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem.  
    Acts 9:3
    And as he journeyed *, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven:  
    9:4
    And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, WHY PERSECUTEST THOU ME?  
    9:5
    And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus WHOM THOU PERSECUTEST:…

    In the same manner, it is my understanding the YHWH is saying that they pierced Him when they crucified Jesus because he was sent by Him to humanity and he is the express image of God's person.

    The KJV Strong's Version    

    John 14      
    14:7
    If ye had known me *, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.  
    14:8
    Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.  
    14:9
    Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? HE THAT HATH SEEN ME HATH SEEN THE FATHER; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?  
    14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    God Bless

    #53173
    Tim2
    Participant

    Hey 94,

    I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God. Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?

    Tim

    #53174
    942767
    Participant

    Quote (Tim2 @ May 25 2007,12:53)
    Hey 94,

    I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God.  Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?

    Tim


    Hi Tim2:

    Do you have any children? If so, are your children you or are they a different person?

    Does the scripture say that Jesus is God or does it say that he is the Son of God?

    #53184
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Hi Tim2.

    Quote (Tim2 @ May 26 2007,07:53)
    Hey 94,

    I'm glad you believe that Jesus is the image of God. Why don't you think that the image of God actually is God?

    Tim


    An image comes from the source. An image by definition cannot be the source.

    God is the Original. Christ the son, is his image.

    Then we come next. i.e., God > Christ > Man

    This is not human logic. It is scriptural.

    1 Corinthians 11:3
    Now I want you to realize that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.

    John 15:1-2
    1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.
    2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

    Jesus Christ is the prototype son and we are sons.
    He is of God and we are of God. But neither of us are God.

    Our God is the Father and God of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    John 20:17
    Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' ”

    #53199
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Hi t8.

    What's your take on John 20:28?

    Joh 20:28  And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

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