Trinity Debate – John 17:3

Subject:  John 17:3 disproves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 18 2007
Debaterst8  & Is 1: 18


t8

We are all familiar with the Trinity doctrine and many here do not believe in it but think it is a false doctrine and even perhaps part of the great falling away prophesied in scripture.

As part of a challenge from Is 1:18 (a member here, not the scripture) I will be posting 12 scriptures over the coming weeks (perhaps months) to show how the Trinity doctrine contradicts scripture and therefore proving it to be a false doctrine.

The first scripture I would like to bring out into the light is John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This scripture clearly talks about the only true God and in addition to that, Jesus Christ who (that true God) has sent.

Trying to fit this scripture into a Trinity template seems impossible in that Jesus Christ is NOT being referred to as the True God in this scripture. So if Jesus is also God (as Trinitarians say) then that leaves us with John 17:3 saying that Jesus is a false God, (if we also say that there are no other gods except false ones), as the ONLY TRUE GOD is reserved for the one who sent him.

Now a possible rebuttal from a Trinitarian could be that Jesus is not the only True God here because it is referring to him as a man as Trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and Man. But if this argument is made by Is 1:18, then he is admitting that Jesus is not always the only True God and therefore the Trinity is not always a Trinity as would be concluded when reading John 17:3. Such a rebuttal is ridiculous if we consider that God changes not and that God is not a man that he should lie.

Secondly, the Trinity doctrine breaks this scripture if we think of God as a Trinity in that it would read as “the only true ‘Trinity’ and Jesus Christ whom the ‘Trinity’ has sent.

We know that such a notion makes no sense so the word ‘God’ must of course be referring to the Father as hundreds of other similar verses do and to further support this, we know that the Father sent his son into this world.

If a Trinitarian argued that the only true God i.e., that The Father, Son, Spirit decided among themselves that the Jesus part of the Trinity would come to earth, then that would be reading way too much into what the scripture actually says and you would end up connecting dots that cannot justifiably be connected. It would be unreasonable to teach this angle because it actually doesn’t say such a thing. Such a rebuttal is pure assumption and quite ridiculous because the text itself is quite simple and clear. i.e., that the ONLY TRUE GOD (one true God) sent another (his son) into the world. It truly is no more complicated than that.

Such a rebuttal also requires that one start with the Trinity doctrine first and then force the scripture to fit it, rather than the scripture teaching us what it is saying. In other words it is similar to the way you get vinegar from a sponge. In order to do that, you must first soak the sponge in vinegar.

I conclude with an important point regarding John 17:3 that is often overlooked. The fact that we can know the one true God and the one he sent is of paramount importance because we are told that this is “eternal life” and therefore it would be reckless to try and change its simple and straight forward meaning.

My final note is to watch that Is 1:18’s rebuttal is focussed around John 17:3. I wouldn’t put it past him to create a diversion and start talking about the possibility or non-possibility of other gods. But the point in hand here is that John 17:3 says that the only true God sent Jesus, so let us see how he opposes this.




Is 1:18

Nice opening post t8. You have raised some interesting points. Thank you, by the way, for agreeing to debate me, I appreciate the opportunity and hope that it can be as amicable as is possible and conducted in good faith. With that in mind let me start by complimenting you. One of the things I do respect about you is that your theology, as much as I disagree with it, is your own, and I know that the material I will be reading over the next few weeks will be of your own making. Okay, enough of this sycophancy…..

:D

My rebuttal will be subdivided into three main sections:

1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
2. Some contextual issues
3. My interpretation of John 17:3

I’m going to try to keep my posts short and succinct, as I know people rarely read long posts through and sometimes the key messages can get lost in extraneous detail.

Section 1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3

Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:

He doesn’t say:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, a god, whom You have sent.

or this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ a lower class of being, whom You have sent.

and He definitely didn’t say this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ , an untrue God.

So, on the face of it, this verse, in and of itself, is NOT a true refutation of the trinity doctrine. Why? Because clearly a contra-distinction in ontology between the Father and Himself was not being drawn by Yeshua. There is not mention of “what” Yeshua is in the verse. He simply describes Himself with his Earthly name, followed by the mention of His being sent. So because there is no mention of a contrast in ontology in the verse, I dispute that it’s an exclusionist statement at all….and let’s not lose sight of this – “eternal” life is “knowing” The Father and the Son. If Yeshua was contrasting His very being with the Father, highlighting the disparity and His own inferiority, wouldn’t His equating of the importance of relationship of believers with the Fatherand Himself in the context of salvation be more than a little presumptuous, audacious, even blasphemous? If His implication was that eternal life is predicated on having a relationship with the One true God and a lesser being, then wasn’t Yeshua, in effect, endorsing a breach of the first commandment?

But let’s imagine, just for a moment, that that is indeed what Yeshua meant to affirm – that the Father is the true God, to the preclusion of Himself. Does this precept fit harmoniously within the framework of scripture? Or even within the framework of your personal Christology t8?

I say no. There is a dilemma invoked by this precept that should not be ignored.

There is no doubt that the word “God” (Gr. theos) is applied to Yeshua in the NT (notably: John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8…). Although obfuscatory tactics are often employed to diminish the impact of these statements.  You yourself might have in the past argued that the writer, in using “theos”, intended to denote something other than “divinity” in many of them, like an allusion to His “authority” for instance. I, of course, disagree with this as the context of the passages make it plain that ontological statements were being made, but for the sake of argument and brevity I’ll take just one example – John 1:1:-

This following quotation comes from your own writings (emphasis mine):

 

Quote
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word ‘god’ which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and he had the nature of that God.

From here

So here we have an unequivocal statement by you, t8, asserting that the word “theos” in John 1:1c is in fact a reference to His very nature. The word choices in your statement (“divine” and “nature”) were emphatically ontological ones, in that they spoke of the very essence of His being. What you actually expressed was – the reason He was called “God” by John was a function of His divine nature! But there is only one divine being t8, YHWH. There is no other God, and none even like YHWH….. 

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me“? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.

BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity?  How implausible.

Anyway, here is your dilemma t8.

On one hand you hold up John 17:3 as a proof text, emphatically affirming that it shows that the Father of Yeshua is “the only true God” (The Greek word for “true” (Gr. alethinos) carries the meaning “real” or “genuine.”) – to the exclusion of the Son. But on the other you concede that Yeshua is called “God” in scriptureand acknowledge that the word “theos” was used by John in reference to His very nature. Can you see the dilemma? If not, here it is. You can’t have it both ways t8. If the Son is called “God” in an ontological sense (which is exactly what you expressed in you writing “who is Jesus” and subsequently in MB posts), but there isonly One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable.

To say otherwise is to acknowledge that John 1:1 teaches that two Gods inhabited the timeless environ of “the beginning” (i.e. before the advent of time itself), co-existing eternally (The Logos “was”[Gr. En – imperfect of eimi – denotes continuous action of the Logos existing in the past] in the beginning) in relationship (The Logos was “with” [pros] God), and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches a True and false god in fact created “all things”. Which aside from being overt polytheism is also clearly ludicrous. Did a false god lay the foundation of the Earth? Were the Heavens the work of false god’s hands? (Hebrews 1:10). How about the prospect of honouring a false god “even as” (i.e. in exactly the same way as) we honour the True one (John 5:23) at the judgement? It’s untenable for a monotheistic Christian, who interprets John 17:3 the way you do, to even contemplate these things, and yet these are the tangible implications and outworkings of such a position.

I would also say, in finishing this section, that if we apply the same inductive logic you used with John 17:3 to prove that the Father alone is the One true God, YHWH, to the exclusion of Yeshua, then to be consistent, should we also accept that Yeshua is excluded from being considered a “Saviour” by Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4 and Jude 25?  And does Zechariah 14:9 exclude Yeshua from being considered a King? And on the flip side of the coin, since Yeshua is ascribed the titles “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1) and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4,6), is the Father excluded from being these things to us?

You can’t maintain that the principal exists in this verse, but not others where the word “only” is used in reference to an individual person. That’s inconsistent. If you read unipersonality into the John 17:3 text and apply the same principle of exclusion to other biblical passages, then what results is a whole complex of problematic biblical dilemmas…….

Section 2. Some contextual issues.

Here is the first 10 verses of the Chapter in John, please note the emphasised parts of the text:

John 17:1-10
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

I assert that some of the highlighted statements above are utterly incompatible with the notion of a monarchial monotheism statement of exclusion in vs 3, while at least one would be genuinely absurd

 

  • In verse 1 Yeshua appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him. How temerarious and brazen would this be if Yeshua be speaking as a lower class of being to the infinite God?
  • In verse 5 we read that Yeshua, alluding to His pre-existent past, again appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him – but adds “with the “glory” (Gr. Doxa – dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship) which I had with You before the world was”. However, in Isaiah 42:8 YHWH said He would not give his glory to another. Now that is an exclusionist statement. What is a lesser being doing sharing “doxa” with the One true God? This puts you in an interesting paradox t8.
    Quote
    With thine own self (para seautw). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. John 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (h eixon, imperfect active of exw, I used to have, with attraction of case of hn to h because of doch), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” – Robertson’s Word Pictures (NT)
  • In verse 10 we  truly have an absurd proclamation if Yeshua is not the true God. He said “and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine”. Would this not be the very epitome of redundancy if this verse was speaking of a finite being addressing the only SUPREME being, the Creator of everything?!?…..Couldn’t we liken this sentiment that Yeshua makes to say someone from the untouchable caste in India (the poorest of the poor) rocking up to Bill Gates and saying “everything I have is yours”?!?! I think it is the same, yet as an analogy falls infinitely short of the mark in impact. I mean what really can a lesser and finite being offer Him that He doesn;y already have?  I think that if Yeshua is not the true God then He has uttered what is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in history.So, I hope you can see that there are some contextual considerations in the John 17:3 prayer that should be taken into account when interpreting vs 3. Moreover, you should not read any verse in isolation from the rest of scripture. If the suspected meaning of the any verse does violence to the harmony of the all of the rest of biblical data relating to a particular topic, then this verse should be reevaluated – not all the others. That’s sound hermeneutics.

 

Section 3. My interpretation of John 17:3.

I think we both should endeavor to always provide our interpretation of the verses that are submitted to us. Just explaining why the other’s view is wrong isn’t really going to aid in progressing the discussion very far.

My interpretation is this: The overarching context of the seventeenth chapter of John is Yeshua submissively praying as a man to His Father. Yeshua was born a man under the Law (Galatians 4:4), and in that respect, was subject to all of it. His Father was also His God, and had He not been the Law would have been violated by Him, and Yeshua would not have been “without blemish”. So the statement He made in John 17:3 reflected this, and of course He was right – the Father is the only true God. But “eternal” life was predicated on “knowing” the Father and Son.

1 John 1:2-3
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal lifewhich was with the Father and was manifested to us
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

So in summary, what we are dealing with here is good evidence for the Father’s divinity and the Son’s humanity. But what we don’t have in John 17:3 is good evidence for the non-deity of the Son. If you argue that it is then would Yeshua calling someone “a true man” disprove His own humanity? No. Yet this is the essence of the argument you are using t8. The verse does not make an ontological contra-distinction between the two persons of the Father and Son, as the Son’s “being” is not even mentioned. Furthermore, given that you have previously acknowledged that the reason John ascribed the title “God” to the logos (in John 1:1) was due to His divine nature (in other words He was “God” in an ontological sense) the default position for your Yeshua is false God – if Yeshua made a statement of exclusion in John 17:3. If the Father is the only true God, all others are, by default, false ones. Then all kinds of problematic contradictions arise in scripture:

  • Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)?
  • Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
  • Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
  • Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
  • Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
  • Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?The list goes on….

 

If there is a verse that teaches YHWH’s unipersonity, John 17:3 is not that verse. The false god implication bears no resemblance to the Yeshua described in the  New Testament scriptures. In the NT the Logos existed (Gr. huparcho – continuous state of existence) in the form (Gr. morphe –nature, essential attributes as shown in the form) of God (Phil 2:6) and “was God” (John 1:1c), “He” then became flesh and dwelt among us  (John 1:14), yet in Him the fullness of deity (Gr. theotes – the state of being God) dwelt bodily form…..Yeshua is the exact representation of His Father’s “hypostasis” (essence/substance) – Hebrews 1:3 (cf. 2 Cr 4:4)….not a false God t8, a genuine One.

Thus ends my first rebuttal, I’ll post my first proof text in three days.

Blessings


Discussion

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  • #55998
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    You should not offend God by teaching what is not written
    such as
    “There is One God.

    The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

    #56015
    acertainchap
    Participant

    There is one true God made of three distinct seperate parts. The Holy Spirit dwells within God the Father and God the Son, and most probably everything else including ourselves.

    #56063
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,02:26)
    There is one true God made of three distinct seperate parts. The Holy Spirit dwells within God the Father and God the Son, and most probably everything else including ourselves.


    Is Jesus God Or does Jesus have God without measure? :)

    #56075
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,02:26)
    There is one true God made of three distinct seperate parts.


    To acertainchap.

    That is illogical.

    3 distinct parts of a one = 33.3% each. But the Trinity doctrine clearly states that all 3 are 100% God. If you say that each is 100% then you end up with 300%.

    You cannot describe your teaching and it is beyond logic.

    Why teach a faith that is illogical? How are you suppose to get men to believe when it is not reasonable?

    You could say that God is beyond our understanding and that would be true. But that is not on trial here.

    The Trinity doctrine is a doctrine that developed over time to explain God's nature. So if the doctrine or model is illogical, then it has failed and you need to go back to the drawing board.

    However I can save you going back to the drawing board. Instead let scripture be the basis of your doctrine. That way you can remain in the truth.

    #56118
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (kenrch @ June 21 2007,16:59)

    Quote (acertainchap @ June 21 2007,02:26)
    There is one true God made of three distinct seperate parts. The Holy Spirit dwells within God the Father and God the Son, and most probably everything else including ourselves.


    Is Jesus God Or does Jesus have God without measure? :)

    Let us allow the scriptures to answer that question.

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
     

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

    Jer 23:5  Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
    Jer 23:6  In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD
    (Jehovah) OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.  

    1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
    Col 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:

    Compare
    Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD (Jehovah), make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    With (John the baptist announcing Jesus)
    Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Compare
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    With
    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;  :O

    #56122
    kenrch
    Participant

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

    In the form of God Not God but in God's form.  You are in God's form being in His image.

    Jesus the expressed IMAGE of the Father.  Sure the Son is a chip off the BIG block but is the Son the Father?

    We are adopted but Jesus is the real thing, being the only begotten of the Father.

    Jesus is so far above me that YES He is my God but He is not the Father. HE is the Father's Son

    CB am I your brother in the Lord?  OR because I don't believe exactly as you do am I lost as Tim2 has said.

    I believe all who believe that Jesus is the Son of God and died for my sins are my brethren.  Either you will be teaching me or I will be teaching you in the millennium either way none are lost! AMEN?

    Joh 1:12

    (ASV)  But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    (CEV)  Yet some people accepted him and put their faith in him. So he gave them the right to be the children of God.

    (DRB)  But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name.

    (ESV)  But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

    (GNB)  Some, however, did receive him and believed in him; so he gave them the right to become God's children.

    (GW)  However, he gave the right to become God's children to everyone who believed in him.

    (KJV)  But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    *1Jo 4:21 And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.* :)

    #56123
    kenrch
    Participant

    I love all who are sincere Christians and I certainly don't believe because one is deceived God will burn His child. This is what IMHO is what the millennium is for. Satan will be bound so as not to confuse anyone. For me (as I said) it's a matter of who will be teaching who. It shouldn't be hard to learn all what will happen is that Jesus will say either you or I were correct. I'm ready to swollow my pride IF I'm wrong, are you?

    IHN&L,

    Ken

    #56131

    t8

    You say…

    Quote
    However I can save you going back to the drawing board. Instead let scripture be the basis of your doctrine. That way you can remain in the truth.

    So when are you gonna start?

    Again, here is your delimma!

    God is One.

    Yet you say there is another “being” that was with him.

    Your doctrine calls him “a god” or “a divine one” who God made all things through!

    Your doctrine miss quotes John 1:1

    In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was “a” god.

    Or

    In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was divine.

    Look, here is the true interpretation…

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1375

    t8. Your doctrine does not align with the Monotheistic Hebrew scriptures.

    There is no other “god” beside him t8.

    Look…

    Isa 43:10
    Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

    Isa 44:6
    Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

    Isa 44:8
    Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

    Isa 45:5
    I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:

    Isa 45:21
    Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.

    Hsa 13:4
    Yet I am the LORD thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

    You call God a liar when you say some other being was beside him other than God.

    Look again…

    Isa 44:24
    Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

    How do you explain this t8.

    Oh and dont forget that God made all things “Through himself”.

    Romans 11:36
    For of him, and through (dia) him, and to him, *are all things*: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

    :D

    Do you see how scripture corrects you?

    You should not offend God by saying that there is any other being beside him!

    There is One God.

    The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

    One Spirit, Three persons, One God!

    Your Henotheistic belief is simply a sister to the Arians and JWs!

    :D

    #56137
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    You say
    “One Spirit, Three persons, One God!”
    Is this written
    or did you deduce it.

    Have you gone back to three deities after only espousing two?

    #57529

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2007,08:48)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “One Spirit, Three persons, One God!”
    Is this written
    or did you deduce it.

    Have you gone back to three deities after only espousing two?


    NH

    There is only “One God”. Since we know that God is Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit, and that “God alone” created all things, and that By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!

    :D

    #57533
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,03:46)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2007,08:48)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “One Spirit, Three persons, One God!”
    Is this written
    or did you deduce it.

    Have you gone back to three deities after only espousing two?


    NH

    There is only “One God”. Since we know that God is Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit, and that “God alone” created all things, and that By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!

    :D


    Hi worshippingJesus.
    There is not one spirit there are billions of them.
    There is only one spirit of God.
    Where does it say that Jesus is that spirit?

    Tim

    #57534

    Quote (TimothyVI @ July 03 2007,04:42)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,03:46)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2007,08:48)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “One Spirit, Three persons, One God!”
    Is this written
    or did you deduce it.

    Have you gone back to three deities after only espousing two?


    NH

    There is only “One God”. Since we know that God is Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit, and that “God alone” created all things, and that By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!

    :D


    Hi worshippingJesus.
    There is not one spirit there are billions of them.
    There is only one spirit of God.
    Where does it say that Jesus is that spirit?

    Tim


    Tim

    1 Cor 12:11
    But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

    Rev 22:11
    And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    Phil 1:19
    For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

    2 Cor 3:17
    Now the Lord(Kurios) is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord(Kurios) is, there is liberty.

    1 Cor 3:16
    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

    2 Cor 13:5
    Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus (Yeshua)Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

    Rom 8:
    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
    10  And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

    Tim, do you believe there is more than one Spirit that we have recieved?

    These verses say there is only “One Spirit” which is the Spirit of God which is the Spirit of Jesus!

    :)

    #57537
    TimothyVI
    Participant

    Hi WorshippingJesus,

    I guess what I was thinking was that God gave each of us a spirit which gives us life.
    That spirit, even though from God then becomes our individual spirit.

    I must admit that I hadn't given a whole lot of thought to this so let me study the scripture
    that you provided.

    Thanks,

    Tim

    #57549
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,03:46)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2007,08:48)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “One Spirit, Three persons, One God!”
    Is this written
    or did you deduce it.

    Have you gone back to three deities after only espousing two?


    NH

    There is only “One God”. Since we know that God is Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit, and that “God alone” created all things, and that By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!

    :D


    “…and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit,…”

    Jesus is the Holy Spirit? Then where is the third person?

    “By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!”

    WJ God said…the Word…..and there was light.

    If the son of man was God then His sacrifice is void because He would not be human.

    Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Jesus humbled himself not accepting any special gift as being the Word but rather became as you and I “in sinful flesh born under the law” the likeness of men.
    Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
    Fashion:
    G4976
    σχῆμα
    schēma
    skhay'-mah
    From the alternate of G2192; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication) external condition: – fashion.

    Phi 2:8 And being found in the same Fasion [ circumstance] as a man……

    2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

    Was the Word who became flesh rich? YOU BET! BUt he denied any special treatment and emptied Himself of that privilege becoming in the same circumstances as we were born in.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The word became as ALL men a little lower than the angels.
    Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The Word was made as a MAN in God's image but lower than angels just as ALL men are!

    Jesus had the Spirit without measure…He wasn't the Holy Spirit. If Jesus was the Holy Spirit then what happened to the Son of man? You see what I mean?

    Jesus, Son of man, was full of God the Spirit. God's Spirit is now in ALL His children.

    Now, I don't understand. Where is the third person?

    #57558

    Quote (kenrch @ July 03 2007,07:33)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,03:46)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2007,08:48)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “One Spirit, Three persons, One God!”
    Is this written
    or did you deduce it.

    Have you gone back to three deities after only espousing two?


    NH

    There is only “One God”. Since we know that God is Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit, and that “God alone” created all things, and that By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!

    :D


    “…and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit,…”

    Jesus is the Holy Spirit?  Then where is the third person?

    “By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!”

    WJ God said…the Word…..and there was light.

    If the son of man was God then His sacrifice is void because He would not be human.  

    Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Jesus humbled himself not accepting any special gift as being the Word but rather became as you and I “in sinful flesh born under the law” the likeness of men.
    Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
    Fashion:
    G4976
    σχῆμα
    schēma
    skhay'-mah
    From the alternate of G2192; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication) external condition: – fashion.

    Phi 2:8 And being found in the same Fasion [ circumstance] as a man……

    2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

    Was the Word who became flesh rich? YOU BET! BUt he denied any special treatment and emptied Himself of that privilege becoming in the same circumstances as we were born in.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The word became as ALL men a little lower than the angels.
    Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The Word was made as a MAN in God's image but lower than angels just as ALL men are!

    Jesus had the Spirit without measure…He wasn't the Holy Spirit.  If Jesus was the Holy Spirit then what happened to the Son of man?  You see what I mean?

    Jesus, Son of man, was full of God the Spirit.  God's Spirit is now in ALL His children.

    Now, I don't understand.  Where is the third person?


    K

    Quote
    WJ God said…the Word…..and there was light.

    :D :D :D

    #57562
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,

    Luke 4
    1And Jesus being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness

    If Jesus was the Spirit
    was he filled with himself?

    #57563
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,07:53)

    Quote (kenrch @ July 03 2007,07:33)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ July 03 2007,03:46)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2007,08:48)
    Hi W,
    You say
    “One Spirit, Three persons, One God!”
    Is this written
    or did you deduce it.

    Have you gone back to three deities after only espousing two?


    NH

    There is only “One God”. Since we know that God is Spirit and there is only “One Spirit” and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit, and that “God alone” created all things, and that By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!

    :D


    “…and the Spirit is God and Jesus is that Spirit,…”

    Jesus is the Holy Spirit?  Then where is the third person?

    “By Jesus “All' things were created and without him was not anything created that was created then we know that Jesus is God!”

    WJ God said…the Word…..and there was light.

    If the son of man was God then His sacrifice is void because He would not be human.  

    Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    Jesus humbled himself not accepting any special gift as being the Word but rather became as you and I “in sinful flesh born under the law” the likeness of men.
    Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death,
    Fashion:
    G4976
    σχῆμα
    schēma
    skhay'-mah
    From the alternate of G2192; a figure (as a mode or circumstance), that is, (by implication) external condition: – fashion.

    Phi 2:8 And being found in the same Fasion [ circumstance] as a man……

    2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

    Was the Word who became flesh rich? YOU BET! BUt he denied any special treatment and emptied Himself of that privilege becoming in the same circumstances as we were born in.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The word became as ALL men a little lower than the angels.
    Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

    Heb 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    Heb 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    The Word was made as a MAN in God's image but lower than angels just as ALL men are!

    Jesus had the Spirit without measure…He wasn't the Holy Spirit.  If Jesus was the Holy Spirit then what happened to the Son of man?  You see what I mean?

    Jesus, Son of man, was full of God the Spirit.  God's Spirit is now in ALL His children.

    Now, I don't understand.  Where is the third person?


    K

    Quote
    WJ God said…the Word…..and there was light.

    :D  :D  :D


    Help me understand WJ where is the third person?  You say Jesus is the Holy Spirit.  Then where is the third person?

    #58323
    OneLadyBand
    Participant

    I came from traditional religions which taught trinity, but never could wrap my mind around it after reading where Jesus called himself “God's SON.” I could relate to the son/daughter analogy, and understood by that term perfectly Jesus' relationship to HIS GOD/Father (John 20:17) from whom he gained all things, and from whom he gained his existence (Rev 3:14; Col 1:15).

    I guess my question would be, for the board:
    HOW can you have THREE “PERSONS” (a person is an inividual being according to the dictionary definition) who are all EQUAL, and NOT be violating the first commandment?
    Also, WHY even mention their equality?

    That is like having a company (Almighty God) which has three Presidents (members of the trinity), each independent of one another, with different name plates and offices, yet all with equal authority/power. Any way you cut it, you STILL have THREE “President”/Gods, and that violates the first commandment.

    : )
    :blues:

    #58325
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi and welcome OLB,
    We did have one trinitarian who said when you pray you never know whicjh member of the trinity would take the call!
    It is a load of cobblers and a distraction from good bible learning

    #58327
    kenrch
    Participant

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 06 2007,16:30)
    Hi and welcome OLB,
    We did have one trinitarian who said when you pray you never know whicjh member of the trinity would take the call!
    It is a load of cobblers and a distraction from good bible learning


    :laugh:

    Welcome Sister just hang around you'll like it here it's like no other :laugh:

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