Trinity Debate – John 17:3

Subject:  John 17:3 disproves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 18 2007
Debaterst8  & Is 1: 18


t8

We are all familiar with the Trinity doctrine and many here do not believe in it but think it is a false doctrine and even perhaps part of the great falling away prophesied in scripture.

As part of a challenge from Is 1:18 (a member here, not the scripture) I will be posting 12 scriptures over the coming weeks (perhaps months) to show how the Trinity doctrine contradicts scripture and therefore proving it to be a false doctrine.

The first scripture I would like to bring out into the light is John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

This scripture clearly talks about the only true God and in addition to that, Jesus Christ who (that true God) has sent.

Trying to fit this scripture into a Trinity template seems impossible in that Jesus Christ is NOT being referred to as the True God in this scripture. So if Jesus is also God (as Trinitarians say) then that leaves us with John 17:3 saying that Jesus is a false God, (if we also say that there are no other gods except false ones), as the ONLY TRUE GOD is reserved for the one who sent him.

Now a possible rebuttal from a Trinitarian could be that Jesus is not the only True God here because it is referring to him as a man as Trinitarians say that Jesus is both God and Man. But if this argument is made by Is 1:18, then he is admitting that Jesus is not always the only True God and therefore the Trinity is not always a Trinity as would be concluded when reading John 17:3. Such a rebuttal is ridiculous if we consider that God changes not and that God is not a man that he should lie.

Secondly, the Trinity doctrine breaks this scripture if we think of God as a Trinity in that it would read as “the only true ‘Trinity’ and Jesus Christ whom the ‘Trinity’ has sent.

We know that such a notion makes no sense so the word ‘God’ must of course be referring to the Father as hundreds of other similar verses do and to further support this, we know that the Father sent his son into this world.

If a Trinitarian argued that the only true God i.e., that The Father, Son, Spirit decided among themselves that the Jesus part of the Trinity would come to earth, then that would be reading way too much into what the scripture actually says and you would end up connecting dots that cannot justifiably be connected. It would be unreasonable to teach this angle because it actually doesn’t say such a thing. Such a rebuttal is pure assumption and quite ridiculous because the text itself is quite simple and clear. i.e., that the ONLY TRUE GOD (one true God) sent another (his son) into the world. It truly is no more complicated than that.

Such a rebuttal also requires that one start with the Trinity doctrine first and then force the scripture to fit it, rather than the scripture teaching us what it is saying. In other words it is similar to the way you get vinegar from a sponge. In order to do that, you must first soak the sponge in vinegar.

I conclude with an important point regarding John 17:3 that is often overlooked. The fact that we can know the one true God and the one he sent is of paramount importance because we are told that this is “eternal life” and therefore it would be reckless to try and change its simple and straight forward meaning.

My final note is to watch that Is 1:18’s rebuttal is focussed around John 17:3. I wouldn’t put it past him to create a diversion and start talking about the possibility or non-possibility of other gods. But the point in hand here is that John 17:3 says that the only true God sent Jesus, so let us see how he opposes this.




Is 1:18

Nice opening post t8. You have raised some interesting points. Thank you, by the way, for agreeing to debate me, I appreciate the opportunity and hope that it can be as amicable as is possible and conducted in good faith. With that in mind let me start by complimenting you. One of the things I do respect about you is that your theology, as much as I disagree with it, is your own, and I know that the material I will be reading over the next few weeks will be of your own making. Okay, enough of this sycophancy…..

:D

My rebuttal will be subdivided into three main sections:

1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3
2. Some contextual issues
3. My interpretation of John 17:3

I’m going to try to keep my posts short and succinct, as I know people rarely read long posts through and sometimes the key messages can get lost in extraneous detail.

Section 1. The logical dilemma of the reading a Unitaritarian “statement of exclusion” into John 17:3

Let me start this section by stating what Yeshua doesn’t say in John 17:3:

He doesn’t say:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, a god, whom You have sent.

or this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ a lower class of being, whom You have sent.

and He definitely didn’t say this:

This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ , an untrue God.

So, on the face of it, this verse, in and of itself, is NOT a true refutation of the trinity doctrine. Why? Because clearly a contra-distinction in ontology between the Father and Himself was not being drawn by Yeshua. There is not mention of “what” Yeshua is in the verse. He simply describes Himself with his Earthly name, followed by the mention of His being sent. So because there is no mention of a contrast in ontology in the verse, I dispute that it’s an exclusionist statement at all….and let’s not lose sight of this – “eternal” life is “knowing” The Father and the Son. If Yeshua was contrasting His very being with the Father, highlighting the disparity and His own inferiority, wouldn’t His equating of the importance of relationship of believers with the Fatherand Himself in the context of salvation be more than a little presumptuous, audacious, even blasphemous? If His implication was that eternal life is predicated on having a relationship with the One true God and a lesser being, then wasn’t Yeshua, in effect, endorsing a breach of the first commandment?

But let’s imagine, just for a moment, that that is indeed what Yeshua meant to affirm – that the Father is the true God, to the preclusion of Himself. Does this precept fit harmoniously within the framework of scripture? Or even within the framework of your personal Christology t8?

I say no. There is a dilemma invoked by this precept that should not be ignored.

There is no doubt that the word “God” (Gr. theos) is applied to Yeshua in the NT (notably: John 1:1, 20:28, Titus 2:13, 2 Peter 1:1, Hebrews 1:8…). Although obfuscatory tactics are often employed to diminish the impact of these statements.  You yourself might have in the past argued that the writer, in using “theos”, intended to denote something other than “divinity” in many of them, like an allusion to His “authority” for instance. I, of course, disagree with this as the context of the passages make it plain that ontological statements were being made, but for the sake of argument and brevity I’ll take just one example – John 1:1:-

This following quotation comes from your own writings (emphasis mine):

 

Quote
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was god.This verse mentions God as a person, except for the last word ‘god’ which is talking about the nature of God. i.e., In the beginning was the Divinity and the Word was with the Divinity and the word was divine. The verse says that the Word existed with God as another identity and he had the nature of that God.

From here

So here we have an unequivocal statement by you, t8, asserting that the word “theos” in John 1:1c is in fact a reference to His very nature. The word choices in your statement (“divine” and “nature”) were emphatically ontological ones, in that they spoke of the very essence of His being. What you actually expressed was – the reason He was called “God” by John was a function of His divine nature! But there is only one divine being t8, YHWH. There is no other God, and none even like YHWH….. 

Isaiah 46:9
Remember the former things, those of long ago; I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me.

So herein lies a quandry….was YHWH telling the truth when He stated “I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me“? I say yes. He is in a metaphysical category by Himself, an utterly unique being.

BTW, the semantic argument in which you attempted to delineate “nature” and “identity” is really just smoke and mirrors IMO. These are not in mutually exclusive categories, one cannot meaningfully co-exist without the other in the context of ontology (the nature of ‘beings’). All humans have human nature – and they are human in identity. If they do not have human nature (i.e. are not a human being) then they cannot be considered to be human at all. It is our nature that defines our being and identity. If Yeshua had/has divine nature, as you propose was described in John 1:1, then He was “God” in identity…..or do we have two divine beings existing “in the beginning” but only one of them was divine in identity?  How implausible.

Anyway, here is your dilemma t8.

On one hand you hold up John 17:3 as a proof text, emphatically affirming that it shows that the Father of Yeshua is “the only true God” (The Greek word for “true” (Gr. alethinos) carries the meaning “real” or “genuine.”) – to the exclusion of the Son. But on the other you concede that Yeshua is called “God” in scriptureand acknowledge that the word “theos” was used by John in reference to His very nature. Can you see the dilemma? If not, here it is. You can’t have it both ways t8. If the Son is called “God” in an ontological sense (which is exactly what you expressed in you writing “who is Jesus” and subsequently in MB posts), but there isonly One ”true” God – then Yeshua is, by default, a false god.. Looked at objectively, no other conclusion is acceptable.

To say otherwise is to acknowledge that John 1:1 teaches that two Gods inhabited the timeless environ of “the beginning” (i.e. before the advent of time itself), co-existing eternally (The Logos “was”[Gr. En – imperfect of eimi – denotes continuous action of the Logos existing in the past] in the beginning) in relationship (The Logos was “with” [pros] God), and that 1 Corinthians 8:6 teaches a True and false god in fact created “all things”. Which aside from being overt polytheism is also clearly ludicrous. Did a false god lay the foundation of the Earth? Were the Heavens the work of false god’s hands? (Hebrews 1:10). How about the prospect of honouring a false god “even as” (i.e. in exactly the same way as) we honour the True one (John 5:23) at the judgement? It’s untenable for a monotheistic Christian, who interprets John 17:3 the way you do, to even contemplate these things, and yet these are the tangible implications and outworkings of such a position.

I would also say, in finishing this section, that if we apply the same inductive logic you used with John 17:3 to prove that the Father alone is the One true God, YHWH, to the exclusion of Yeshua, then to be consistent, should we also accept that Yeshua is excluded from being considered a “Saviour” by Isaiah 43:11; 45:21; Hosea 13:4 and Jude 25?  And does Zechariah 14:9 exclude Yeshua from being considered a King? And on the flip side of the coin, since Yeshua is ascribed the titles “Only Master” (Jude 4, 2 Peter 2:1) and “Only Lord” (Jude 4, Ephesians 4:4, 1 Corinthians 8:4,6), is the Father excluded from being these things to us?

You can’t maintain that the principal exists in this verse, but not others where the word “only” is used in reference to an individual person. That’s inconsistent. If you read unipersonality into the John 17:3 text and apply the same principle of exclusion to other biblical passages, then what results is a whole complex of problematic biblical dilemmas…….

Section 2. Some contextual issues.

Here is the first 10 verses of the Chapter in John, please note the emphasised parts of the text:

John 17:1-10
1Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 
2even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 
3″This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 
4″I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 
5″Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
6″I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 
7″Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 
8for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 
9″I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 
10and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them.

I assert that some of the highlighted statements above are utterly incompatible with the notion of a monarchial monotheism statement of exclusion in vs 3, while at least one would be genuinely absurd

 

  • In verse 1 Yeshua appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him. How temerarious and brazen would this be if Yeshua be speaking as a lower class of being to the infinite God?
  • In verse 5 we read that Yeshua, alluding to His pre-existent past, again appeals to the Father to “glorify” Him – but adds “with the “glory” (Gr. Doxa – dignity, glory (-ious), honour, praise, worship) which I had with You before the world was”. However, in Isaiah 42:8 YHWH said He would not give his glory to another. Now that is an exclusionist statement. What is a lesser being doing sharing “doxa” with the One true God? This puts you in an interesting paradox t8.
    Quote
    With thine own self (para seautw). “By the side of thyself.” Jesus prays for full restoration to the pre-incarnate glory and fellowship (cf. John 1:1) enjoyed before the Incarnation (John 1:14). This is not just ideal pre-existence, but actual and conscious existence at the Father’s side (para soi, with thee) “which I had” (h eixon, imperfect active of exw, I used to have, with attraction of case of hn to h because of doch), “before the world was” (pro tou ton kosmon einai), “before the being as to the world” – Robertson’s Word Pictures (NT)
  • In verse 10 we  truly have an absurd proclamation if Yeshua is not the true God. He said “and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine”. Would this not be the very epitome of redundancy if this verse was speaking of a finite being addressing the only SUPREME being, the Creator of everything?!?…..Couldn’t we liken this sentiment that Yeshua makes to say someone from the untouchable caste in India (the poorest of the poor) rocking up to Bill Gates and saying “everything I have is yours”?!?! I think it is the same, yet as an analogy falls infinitely short of the mark in impact. I mean what really can a lesser and finite being offer Him that He doesn;y already have?  I think that if Yeshua is not the true God then He has uttered what is perhaps the most ridiculous statement in history.So, I hope you can see that there are some contextual considerations in the John 17:3 prayer that should be taken into account when interpreting vs 3. Moreover, you should not read any verse in isolation from the rest of scripture. If the suspected meaning of the any verse does violence to the harmony of the all of the rest of biblical data relating to a particular topic, then this verse should be reevaluated – not all the others. That’s sound hermeneutics.

 

Section 3. My interpretation of John 17:3.

I think we both should endeavor to always provide our interpretation of the verses that are submitted to us. Just explaining why the other’s view is wrong isn’t really going to aid in progressing the discussion very far.

My interpretation is this: The overarching context of the seventeenth chapter of John is Yeshua submissively praying as a man to His Father. Yeshua was born a man under the Law (Galatians 4:4), and in that respect, was subject to all of it. His Father was also His God, and had He not been the Law would have been violated by Him, and Yeshua would not have been “without blemish”. So the statement He made in John 17:3 reflected this, and of course He was right – the Father is the only true God. But “eternal” life was predicated on “knowing” the Father and Son.

1 John 1:2-3
2and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal lifewhich was with the Father and was manifested to us
3what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

So in summary, what we are dealing with here is good evidence for the Father’s divinity and the Son’s humanity. But what we don’t have in John 17:3 is good evidence for the non-deity of the Son. If you argue that it is then would Yeshua calling someone “a true man” disprove His own humanity? No. Yet this is the essence of the argument you are using t8. The verse does not make an ontological contra-distinction between the two persons of the Father and Son, as the Son’s “being” is not even mentioned. Furthermore, given that you have previously acknowledged that the reason John ascribed the title “God” to the logos (in John 1:1) was due to His divine nature (in other words He was “God” in an ontological sense) the default position for your Yeshua is false God – if Yeshua made a statement of exclusion in John 17:3. If the Father is the only true God, all others are, by default, false ones. Then all kinds of problematic contradictions arise in scripture:

  • Were the apostles self declared “bond servants” to the One true God, as well as a false one (Acts 16:7, Romans 1:1, Titus, James 1:1)?
  • Did two beings, the True God and a false one, eternally co-exist in intimate fellowship “in the beginning” (John 1:1b)?
  • Did the True God along with a false one bring “all things” into existence (1 Corinthians 8:6)?
  • Is a false god really “in” the only True one (John 10:38; 14:10,11; 17:21)?
  • Should we honour a false God “even as” we honour the Only True God as Judge (John 5:23)?
  • Did the True God give a false one “all authority…..on Heaven and Earth” (Matthew 28:18)?The list goes on….

 

If there is a verse that teaches YHWH’s unipersonity, John 17:3 is not that verse. The false god implication bears no resemblance to the Yeshua described in the  New Testament scriptures. In the NT the Logos existed (Gr. huparcho – continuous state of existence) in the form (Gr. morphe –nature, essential attributes as shown in the form) of God (Phil 2:6) and “was God” (John 1:1c), “He” then became flesh and dwelt among us  (John 1:14), yet in Him the fullness of deity (Gr. theotes – the state of being God) dwelt bodily form…..Yeshua is the exact representation of His Father’s “hypostasis” (essence/substance) – Hebrews 1:3 (cf. 2 Cr 4:4)….not a false God t8, a genuine One.

Thus ends my first rebuttal, I’ll post my first proof text in three days.

Blessings


Discussion

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  • #53801
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 27 2007,06:54)
    t8

    Quote
    Hi kenrch,
    Do we know?
    The Word surely is not a name.
    Michael is the name of an angel.
    The monogenes son is not an angel.

    John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,..

    The Word is Jesus our God.

    Jesus' name is also called “The Word of God” “Almighty God” and “the Great God”.

    Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    Jesus the Word of God, is the Almighty God, and our Great God    :O


    Hi Nick. First explain why in my above post, Jesus in the Bible is called “The Word of God” “Almighty God” and “the Great God”. I will then answer your question. That's a promise.

    #53806
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CB,
    You you think Christ treads his own winepress?
    He is the vine not the husbandman!

    #54228
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Because Christ is The Almighty God. He treads His own winepress.

    Look again!

    Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    Joh 20:28  Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
      :O

    #54233
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CB,
    Who is the God of Almighty God then?
    Jn20

    #54321
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (Cult Buster @ June 01 2007,14:03)
    Because Christ is The Almighty God. He treads His own winepress.

    Look again!

    Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    Joh 20:28 Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
    :O


    Look again CultB.

    his name is called The Word of God.

    That is who he is.

    And he comes/came in his Fathers name.

    John 5:43
    I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.

    So the name written on him is who he represents. Just as the Church comes in the name of Jesus, but is not Jesus.

    Can you see that, or does your Trinitarian specs blind you once again? You need the full council of scripture, not just the ones that tickle your ears or agree with your philosophy.

    #54869
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Hi t8. You are once again putting the twist on scripture. When Jesus came in His Father's name, it means that He came in His Father's authority.

    Read again carefully and you will see that Jesus is the Almighty God.

    Quote (Cult Buster @ May 31 2007,23:03)
    Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

    Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

    Joh 20:28  Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
      :O

    t8. Consider also these words by Worshipping Jesus and see whether they apply to you .

    Quote
    NH

    I think the words of God through Is 1:18 are far more honest and sound than yours.

    No offence!

    But you have shown nothing but disbelief for the words of OT scriptures and scriptures as a whole.

    The bible is like a box of chocalates to you. You take what you like and you never know what we are gonna get!

    When it sosnt taste good to you, you spit it out and claim it didnt belong in the box!
    :O

    #54914
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CB,
    You quote
    “Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;”
    And somehow you read that the one who treads the winepress of God
    MUST BE GOD?
    Ummm

    #54934

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2007,12:43)
    Hi CB,
    You quote
    “Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;”
    And somehow you read that the one who treads the winepress of God
    MUST BE GOD?
    Ummm


    NH

    Who else can tread the winepress of Almighty God?

    ???

    #54935
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    In context it speaks of The Word of God so Christ treads the winepress of Almighty God.
    He serves His God.

    #54936

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ June 07 2007,18:10)

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2007,12:43)
    Hi CB,
    You quote
    “Rev 19:11  And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
    Rev 19:12  His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
    Rev 19:13  And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
    Rev 19:14  And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
    Rev 19:15  And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
    Rev 19:16  And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
    Rev 19:17  And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;”
    And somehow you read that the one who treads the winepress of God
    MUST BE GOD?
    Ummm


    NH

    Who else can tread the winepress of Almighty God?

    ???


    NH

    Who is this “King of Kings”.

    Rev 17:14
    These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for *he is Lord of lords, and King of kings*: and they that are with him [are] called, and chosen, and faithful.

    Who else dwells in the Light which no man can see nor approach?

    1 Tim 6:
    14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    15 Which in his times he shall shew, *who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords*;
    16 Who only hath immortality, *dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see*: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen
    .

    Notice he is dwelling “In this light” which no man can see.

    Jesus is the Light, yet he dwells in the Light of the Father which no man can see nor approach.

    And in case you and t8 didnt catch Pauls meaning here and think that it is the Father dwelling in the light, then you should look at the context of verse 14, and also read what John said later…

    Rev 17:14
    These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for *he is Lord of lords, and King of kings*: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    Rev 19:16
    And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, *KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS*.

    This reminds me of a Prophesy YHWH made of himself…

    14:3
    Then shall the LORD (YHWH) go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    14:4
    And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    14:5
    And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and *the LORD (YHWH) my God shall come, and all the saints with thee*.

    14:6
    And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:

    14:7
    But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD (YHWH), not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.

    14:8
    And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.

    14:9
    And *the LORD (YHWH) shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one*.

    :)

    #54937
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Do you not know the Son of God who fights and rules in the name of His Father God?
    Ps 2
    “Psalm 2
    1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

    2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

    4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

    5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

    6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

    7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

    11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

    12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

    You should.

    #55308

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 07 2007,19:01)
    Hi W,
    Do you not know the Son of God who fights and rules in the name of His Father God?
    Ps 2
    “Psalm 2
    1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

    2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

    4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

    5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

    6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

    7I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

    8Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.

    9Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.

    10Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.

    11Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.

    12Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.”

    You should.


    NH

    Amen. And who is this King that sits in his Holy Hill?

    :)

    #55319
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    The King of kings, Jesus Christ, appointed by God over the kings of the earth and through who God rules.
    He is seated in Jerusalem, the holy hill, in the seat of king David.

    Isaiah 66:20
    And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

    #55375

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 12 2007,11:40)
    Hi W,
    The King of kings, Jesus Christ, appointed by God over the kings of the earth and through who God rules.
    He is seated in Jerusalem, the holy hill, in the seat of king David.

    Isaiah 66:20
    And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.


    NH

    Is he the only Lord of Lords and King of Kings?

    ???

    #55380
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W.
    There may be many lords of lords and kings of kings.

    But the Lord Jesus shall be the biblical King of Kings till his work is done.
    Then he submits the kingdom to his God.

    1Cor 15

    25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”

    #55387

    Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 13 2007,07:45)
    Hi W.
    There may be many lords of lords and kings of kings.

    But the Lord Jesus shall be the biblical King of Kings till his work is done.
    Then he submits the kingdom to his God.

    1Cor 15

    25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.”


    Amen!

    And as “One God” he shall sit in the throne with his Father being worshipped by all creation, for all creation was made by him and for him!

    Rev 5:
    [9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    [11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    [12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
    [13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    [14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    The same praise and worship is given to Yeshua as to the Father.

    Isa 45:6
    That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that *there is none beside me*. I am the LORD, and there is none else.

    Isa 45:21
    Tell ye, and bring [them] near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is *none beside me*.

    :D

    #55389
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi w,
    Are you seated now in heavenly places with Christ?

    Col3
    “1If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

    2Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

    3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”

    Will you be ruling with him?

    Rev20
    ” 4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    5But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    6Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    Or will you be just among the nations who are ruled?

    Ps 2
    ” 1Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?

    2The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,

    3Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.

    4He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.

    5Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

    6Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. “

    Rev 20
    ” 7And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

    8And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

    9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

    10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.”

    #55410

    NH

    I understand that you are trying so hard to make Jesus into a simple man like us.

    But you should look again…

    Rev 5:
    [9] And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
    [10] And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
    [11] And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
    [12] Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
    [13] And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
    [14] And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

    Do you see any saints or sons of God or any other being in this throne but God?

    #55411
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi W,
    Surely the Lord Jesus, the man from heaven, the Lord from heaven is just like us but is Lord of his body, even Lord of the entire earthly kingdom of David and Lord in the heavenly realm too till all is restored.

    Mt 28
    ” 18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. “

    #55517

    NH

    Where is it written that Jesus is “the man from heaven”?

    ???

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