Home Debates Trinity Debate – Hebrews 1:10 Page 7

Trinity Debate – Hebrews 1:10

Subject:  Hebrews 1:10 proves the Trinity Doctrine
Date: Mar. 24 2007
Debaters:  Is 1: 18 & t8

Is 1:18

Hi t8, 

Here is my first proof text. I selected Hebrews 1:10 as I think it establishes Yeshua as THE Creator, as well as this it’s also got a fishhook in it for those of a henotheistic persuasion (more on that later). Here is the verse in the context of the entire Chapter:

Hebrews 1
1God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5For to which of the angels did He ever say, “YOU ARE MY SON, TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”? And again, ” I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”? 6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says, “AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.” 7And of the angels He says,” WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS, AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.” 8But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM. 9″ YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HASANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 10And, “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; 11THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT, 12AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.” 13But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”? 14Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation?

This verse comes from a chapter in Hebrews where the writer’s obvious premise was to demonstrate the absolute supremacy of the Son to his Jewish readers. It’s an apologetic work where the Hebrew OT texts are heavily drawn upon. This NT writer, like others, appeared to have no hesitancy at all applying to Yeshua OT quotations that exclusively reference YHWH. The OT quotations undoubtedly would have shocked the monotheistic Jews to the core, verses 10-12 especially so. It really is a christological tour de force, which reaches its climax in verses 8-12. It’s interesting to annotate the writer’s conveyances leading up to and immediately following verse 10. Here is a quick summary:

 

  • The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
  • He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
  • He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
  • He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
  • The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
  • He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
  • He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)
  • Is said to be immutable [an sole attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)

….and in amongst all these, what must have been startling affirmations (to the intended readers), we read this:

And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

The writer of Hebrews was quoting Psalms 102:25 which was, of course, written about the Most High God, YHWH, as the context of the Psalm unmistakably bears out:

Psalm 102:19-27
19For He looked down from His holy height; From heaven the LORD gazed upon the earth, 20To hear the groaning of the prisoner, To set free those who were doomed to death, 21That men may tell of the name ofthe LORD in Zion And His praise in Jerusalem, 22When the peoples are gathered together, And the kingdoms, to serve the LORD. 23He has weakened my strength in the way; He has shortened my days. 24I say, “O my God, do not take me away in the midst of my days, Your years are throughout all generations. 25″Of old You founded the earth, And the heavens are the work of Your hands. 26″Even they will perish, but You endure; And all of them will wear out like a garment; Like clothing You will change them and they will be changed. 27″But You are the same, And Your years will not come to an end. 28″The children of Your servants will continue, And their descendants will be established before You.”

Psalm 102:25 is a verse quite obviously written about YHWH, but according to the Hebrews’ writer it was, in reality, an utterance spoken by the Father to the Son. The Hebrew’s writer affirms that it was the Father Himself Who personally addresses His Son as THE Creator of the Universe! So here we have a clear elucidation of the Son’s exact role in the creation. To me this shows that the descriptive language in the OT dealing with YHWH’s act of Creation is, in the mind of the author, perfectly APPLICABLE TO the Logos.

Q) In what sense was Yeshua the Creator of the Heavens and Earth?

A) In the sense that was attributed to YHWH in Psalms 102:25!

Hebrews 1:10 shows that the pre-incarnate Jesus was the actual executor of all creation.

In anticipation of this objection (which I’ll paraphrase):

‘he was ascribed an attribute of YHWH, and therefore a passage outlining that attribute, on account of his role as agent’

…I answer:-

Would this not be a grossly misleading and irresponsible thing for the writer to do? He was no doubt schooled up on the laws governing blasphemy, and applying a verse that spoke of YHWH to a lesser being would certainly cross that line. Lesser beings are to be strongly segregated from the One true God, and no sound-thinking and scripturally-literate NT writer would, in writing an apologetic work about a lesser being, submit an OT verse that (even) ostensibly supports Him being YHWH. Unless of course He was YHWH, then it would be quite understandable. I would also say that IF the law of agency was being invoked here, and the verse simply shows that the Son is credited for having acted in the role of YHWH, then we should have other examples of this occurring with characters other than Yeshua. But can we find one t8? Who else in the Bible is ascribed an OT “YHWH” verse as a function of their agency? Maybe you can show me one…..

So, to legitimately extend this objection you will need to explain the writer’s rationale in applying this verse to Yeshua, even though He would have known He would be overtly misleading His Jewish readers about the identity of Yeshua and YHWH, and why he would risk contravening the laws governing blasphemy. You will also need to produce evidence showing that personages other than Yeshua, who likewise acted in the role of ‘agent’, have also ascribed to them passages from the OT that exclusively reference YHWH. Otherwise you are using a ‘law by exception’ as the very foundation of your refutation.

Just to briefly background the scriptural association between Yeshua and Creation, the fact that the pre-incarnate Logos was involved, in some capacity, in the creation of “all things” is a well established biblical precept. John 1:3, 10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:16; Hebrews 1:2 clearly bear this out. For example, in John 1:3 we read:

John 1:3
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

The statement “All things were made by him” is an astonishingly high statement to make of the Logos. And just to underscore this sentiment there is a exclusionist reiteration in the second part of the verse. There was nothing in the created order that was not made through Him. John could not have made a stronger distinction between the Creator and the “things” that He “made”

Paul concurs, writing an even more emphatic statement:

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him

The language here is unambiguous, according to Paul the Logos created all things, this is an unqualifiedstatement that details precisely what the things were:- “things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities”. Moreover, they were made For Him (Yeshua). Here’s something interesting though, Proverbs 16:4 says that YHWH did it for Himself:

Proverbs 16:4
The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

If the NT reveals that Christ did it for Himself and the OT reveals that YHWH did it for Himself then, so that basis alone, the logical conclusion is that Yeshua IS Creator YHWH, or else we have a blatant contradiction. And here’s another to consider, in Isaiah 44:24 YHWH declares that He did it “alone”. Job reiterated this in Job 9:8. Does the language in these passages leave any room for the possibility of two independent beings creating “all things”? I don’t think it does. It’s yet another logical dilemma for those that propose that Yeshua is not YHWH, but a lesser being.

At this point I anticipate you will likely be making this objection, which I’ll also paraphrase:

‘The word “dia” is rightly rendered ‘through’, and this word infers that the Logos was not the first cause of Creation but an agent that His father used to bring it into existence (but the Father is the ultimate power behind it).’

This rationale, of course, relegates the Logos to the status of a puppet, used in an instrumental way to achieve the creation. If this were true, and “dia” does connote that, then Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 challenge this dogma. The same language used in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16 is also used of “God” in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10.

Romans 11:32-35
32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. 33Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and unfathomable His ways! 34For WHO HAS KNOWN THE MIND OF THE LORD, OR WHO BECAME HIS COUNSELOR? 35Or WHO HAS FIRST GIVEN TO HIM THAT IT MIGHT BE PAID BACK TO HIM AGAIN? 36For from Him and through (Gr. dia) Himand to Him are all things To Him be the glory forever. Amen.

cf.

Hebrews 2:10
For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through (Gr. dia) whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings.

So to be consistent, you must also accept that “God” in the above two scriptures is not credited for doing the aforementioned things in the active and primary senses (i.e. He was not the ‘efficient cause’), but was rather an intermediary between the real first cause and the recipient, which is clearly ludicrous. So, given this, if this language in Romans 11:36 and Hebrews 2:10 is applicable to “God”, and still denotes that He is the ‘primary cause’ then on what grounds can you apply a different rule to Yeshua when “dia” is used in reference to Him? You can’t have it both ways.

Anyway, moving on. So we have clear scriptural witness attesting, at the very least, to Yeshua’s involvement in bringing about creation, but Hebrews 1:10 elucidates the capacity to which He was involved – according to this verse, and in the opinion of the Father, He was the executor of Creation in the exact sense that YHWH was described as being in Psalms 102:25, “His hands” laid the foundation of the Earth……what would His Jewish readers have made of this? Certainly the writer’s conclusion that Yeshua was YHWH is difficult to escape, especially so when all the data in Hebrews Chapter 1 is considered. Verses 10-12 would have left them with no doubt at all.

Okay now for the “fish hook” I alluded to in the beginning of this post.

Hebrews 1:10
And,”YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Please note the highlighted word. Remembering that the texts from vs 5-12 are, according to the writer of Hebrews, attestations made by the Father to the Son (“But of the Son He says” –  vs 8), it’s evident that the Father actually addressed the Son as “Lord.” The Greek word “kurios” is used in most LXX manuscripts to render the Divine Name, YHWH. That’s well known. But also, when used in the NT as an honorific (“lord”) it signifies that the one addressed is superior in rank or station to the addresser. The slave addresses his mater as “lord”, not the other way around. This is principal is exceptionless.

So there are two possible scenarios here:

1) The Father was addressing the Son in a way that denoted His subservience, or inferiority in rank, to Yeshua. Or,

2) He was addressing the Son as YHWH.

I assert that #1 cannot be legitimate in light of the many NT verses where the Father is spoken as being “greater than” (i.e. superior in office) to the Son. So that leave only one possibility – The Father addresses the Son as YHWH. This would align perfectly with the context of Hebrews Ch 1 as a whole, which is about the absolute supremacy of the Son. It also fits precisely within the context of verses 10-12, which are OT quotations that manifestly reference YHWH…..

In summary, Hebrews 1:10 is a verse that cannot be overlooked by you t8. According to the writer of Hebrews this quotation from Psalms 102:25, was uttered by the Father to the Son. Yet when we examine the Psalm carefully it’s evident that it speaks exclusively of YHWH. Would a NT writer apply a verse that manifestly references YHWH to the Son if He were not YHWH? I say no. It’s inconceivable that he would do this, as it would grossly mislead the recipients of his letter about the identity of the Son, if He were not YHWH. Nor would he risk the consequence of overt blasphemy by audaciously elevating a lesser being to the status of Most High God, if He were not that God. And let’s bear in mind the context that this verse was placed into:

  • The “world” was made through Him (v 2)
  • He is said to be the radiance of the Father’s glory [Gr. doxa] (v 3)
  • He is the exact representation of the Father’s “hypostasis” [nature/substance] (v 3)
  • He “upholds [sustains] all things by the word of His power” (v 3)
  • The angels are commanded to worship Him [a sole prerogative of YHWH] (v 6)
  • He is called “God” (with the definite article) by the Father (v 8)
  • He is contrasted from false gods (v 11)
  • Is said to be immutable [an attribute of YHWH – e.g. Malachi 3:6] (v 12)

The writer in writing Hebrews Chapter 1 had a single overarching motive, to apologetically convey the absolute supremacy of the Son, Yeshua, to his Jewish readers. The chapter is a tour de force that climaxes in the declarations in vss 10-12 that establish Yeshua as THE immutable Creator of the Universe. So this verse has not been ripped out of context, it perfectly fits within the context of the Chapter in perfect harmony.

Okay, now for my questions relating to Hebrews 1:10.

Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?

Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.

Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]

I look forward to reading your answers…..

Blessings t8



t8

Hebrews 1:1-13

1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,

2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.

3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.

5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?
And again,
“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

6 And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

7 And of the angels He says,
“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”

8 But of the Son He says,
“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

10 And,
“YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH,
AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;
11 THEY WILL PERISH, BUT YOU REMAIN;
AND THEY ALL WILL BECOME OLD LIKE A GARMENT,
12 AND LIKE A MANTLE YOU WILL ROLL THEM UP;
LIKE A GARMENT THEY WILL ALSO BE CHANGED
BUT YOU ARE THE SAME,
AND YOUR YEARS WILL NOT COME TO AN END.”

13 But to which of the angels has He ever said,
“SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES
A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?

The first thing that has to be said about this verse is that it doesn’t teach a Trinity just as you will find that no scripture does. Yet if there was even one scripture that taught the Trinity doctrine, I would assume that you would have quoted that one as your first one. Yet you choose this one which doesn’t teach the Trinity. If there was a biblical text that specifically taught the Trinity, then you could have blown me out of the water in your first post had you quoted it. I take it that you didn’t quote such a verse because it doesn’t exist.

In any case you use Hebrews to try and prove that Jesus is Yahweh and you say that Jesus is the actual creator. So lets think about that for a moment. If he is the actual creator, then one would have to assume that the Father wasn’t. But then you also say that all things were created through him. So even at this early stage in my rebuttal I provide proof that shows you are double minded on this issue. Which is it? Did he create everything, or was he the one whom God created through? I can’t see both as working, i.e., that Jesus who is God made everything through himself. It stands to reason that the Father made all things through the son does it not?

Now your choice of scripture is an interesting one because verse one starts off with “God” and talks about the son from God’s perspective.

So it is primarily focussed on two identities.

1. God
2. the son.

And it is focussed on what God says and thinks about the son.

Verse 8 & 9 appear to me that God is talking about the son, or what Paul is saying about what David is saying about what God is saying about the son.

8 But of the Son He says, “YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
9 “YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.” 

He in the above verse must be God, or possibly the author. (I don’t have time to check this as my reply is delayed enough as it is.)

First thing to note though, is the son has a God and yet the Trinity doctrine tries to teach us that they both and another make up one God.

Anyway, verse 10 seems to be talking about the LORD and how he (&/or the author) sees the son. Not only is this evident from the fact that verse one starts off with the word “God” and then speaks about the son as another, followed by what He or the author says about the son in verses 8, but it is then obvious that it is God who is the HE in verse 13 because it says:

“But to which of the angels has He ever said, “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”?”

So He is obviously the one spoken of in the immediate preceeding verses, ie., verse 10 – “YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS; which then means it is a verse about the LORD, not the son.

Think about it, the LORD/God says of his son, “sit at his right hand”. So He in verse 10 cannot be the son because if it was, then He in verse 13 would also be the son and that would then break verse 13 completely and render it as a verse that makes no sense.

So not only is it actually logical that the LORD who said to his son “sit at my right hand”, is the same LORD who laid the foundations for the earth and the heavens, but there are other witness scriptures to prove that the LORD and his son are 2 beings or identities.

Hebrews 1:3 (already quoted)
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

Hebrews 8:1
The point of what we are saying is this: We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 

Acts 7:55
But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 

Let’s face it, Jesus isn’t standing at the right hand of himself, rather the Majesty in Heaven who is God. Stephen saw Jesus at HIS (the Majesty) right hand. He didn’t see a Trinity did he? I wonder if you were there Isaiah if you would have believed Stephen’s witness as to seeing Jesus at HIS right hand, and not a Trinity being that I think you yourself would expect to see.

Anyway, to say that Jesus is actually the LORD, you would then be forced into rendering verse 13 as saying “JESUS says sit at my right hand”. Or if you say that LORD is the Trinity, then it says ‘The Father, Son, Spirit’ said to Jesus “Sit at my right hand”. Neither works does it? The only 2 possibilities that I can see are that the author (Paul) said that (David) said that God said “Sit at my right hand” or that he is just simply saying that God said it to the son”. Either way, it cannot be the son who says “Sits at my right hand”, therefore it cannot be the son who laid the foundations, for the LORD is the one who laid the foundations and He is the one who says “Sit at my right hand”.

I base this rebuttal on the translations as they were presented to me. I didn’t have the time to look deeply into the Greek and so there is also a possibility that a translation issue could add, edit, or correct what I have said above.

So to make this clearer, if my point hasn’t been made obvious thus far:
Try reading verse 10 to 13. It talks about the LORD and how he laid the foundations of creation, and then it talks about the LORD who says of his son, “Sit at my right hand”. Therefore this LORD cannot be Jesus because he is told to sit at the right hand of the LORD. It is verse 8 that seems to throw some off this, yet even before verse 8 it speaks of God and then his son followed by a description of the son, followed again by focusing back on what God said or thinks of his son. In other words you need to look carefully at when it is talking of God or the son. If there is an overlap, you then could confuse Jesus for God couldn’t you?

So to conclude, the person whom this whole perspective is being viewed through is God/LORD/YHWH (or possibly the original one who penned the scripture), and it is about how He (God) sees the/his son and what the LORD says about him. Hebrews even starts with the word God and then moves on to say how he has sent many (prophets) to speak on his behalf and yet who in their right mind would say that any of these prophets are God? Then it is written that he finally sent his son, and who in their right mind would say that the son is God? Well it appears that a certain doctrine that was devised centuries after the Book of Revelation was written causes some (including yourself) to believe this very thing.

From there it is all about what the LORD says and thinks of his son. At times the LORD is spoken of directly and other times he is quoted such as “SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND, UNTIL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES A FOOTSTOOL FOR YOUR FEET”, when he is speaking of the son.

I leave you with the following verses and wonder how it is possible that you could believe them as they seem to contradict you view:

John 1:10
He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 

John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 

So now to your three questions:

Q1) Does Psalms 102:25 speak of the Father or Son?

I would say that it is the Father. In Hebrews it actually says “I will be a Father to him”. Who will be a Father to him? Well it is God/LORD who will be a Father to him.

Q2) Did the Father address the Son in Psalms 102:25 as the Creator of Earth and the Heavens? And if not please explain how and why your opinion differs from that of the writer of Hebrews.

It appears to me that it is David (the writer of that Psalm) who is addressing God.

Q3) Does the Father address the Son with the appellative “kurios” because He was speaking as the subservient, or because He (the Son) is YHWH, or is it because of another reason? [note: if you have a third scenario please produce evidence that the word “kurios” can legitimately be used that way in the NT]

I don’t think it is the Father addressing the son at all, if you are talking of Hebrews 1:10 “YOU, LORD..,”.

OK I have given my rebuttal. Now even though I took my time in replying I would have liked more time to check out the original language to see if what I am saying is so. I do not claim that all I say is true, but that I am a human who struggles with his sinful nature who desires to be perfect and so to that end, I am open to learning what others have to say and of course I am open to changing my mind. My only interest here is that the truth wins. I care less that I win and I am more than willing to change when truth is presented to me. So far your argument that Jesus is the LORD/YHWH/GOD hasn’t even got close to convincing me, but has only made me look deeper into that which I do believe.

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  • May 8, 2007 at 9:47 am#51690
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    marthinus.

    Quote
    Jesus was conceived by the Holy Ghost (Matthew 1:18 and 20), ie the Holy Ghost is the Father of Jesus. In Matthew 3:16-17 The Spirit confirms, is witness to the fact that Jesus is his Son.  

    Hi marthinus. I've heard this one before.

    I don't accept your conclusion. Jesus in His incarnation was conceived “by means of”  the Holy Ghost. God the Holy Ghost was the Power that made the incarnation possible. Jesus was not the child of the Holy Ghost.

    The word “of” was translated from the Greek “ek ex” which means “by means of” or “because of”.

    Mat 1:18  Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of [(ek ex) by means of] the Holy Ghost.
    Mat 1:19  Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a publick example, was minded to put her away privily.
    Mat 1:20  But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of [(ek ex) by means of] the Holy Ghost.

    G1537
    ἐκ, ἐξ
    ek  ex
    ek, ex
    A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote): – after, among, X are, at betwixt (-yond), by the means of, exceedingly, (+ abundantly above), for (-th), from (among, forth, up), + grudgingly, + heartily, X heavenly, X hereby, + very highly, in, . . . ly, (because, by reason) of, off (from), on, out among (from, of), over, since, X thenceforth, through, X unto, X vehemently, with (-out). Often used in composition, with the same general import; often of completion.

    May 8, 2007 at 10:04 am#51692
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    marthinus

    Quote
    Also you guys argue your doctrine around two or three verses which are all highly debateable as is seen in this forum, when 99.9% of the text speaks the contrary in clear unambiguous terms.  Can we honestly ask our self the question. Is it reasonable to build any Doctrine on such a weak foundation?  

    marthinus. Does the following seem like 2 or 3 verses?

    JESUS IS JEHOVAH AND EQUAL WITH GOD

    JOHN 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    JOHN 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    JOHN 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

    Phi 2:6  Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God

    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    MATTHEW 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

    Compare
    MATTHEW 13:13-15 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. (14) And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: (15) For this people's heart is waxed gross, and {their} ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with {their} eyes, and hear with {their} ears, and should understand with {their} heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
    With
    ISAIAH 6:9-10 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    JOHN 5:17-18 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. (18) Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

    JOHN 10:30-33 I and {my} Father are one. (31) Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. (32) Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? (33) The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.

    JOHN 16:15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew {it} unto you.

    Compare
    JEREMIAH 22:5 But if ye will not hear these words, I swear by myself, saith the Lord, that this house shall become a desolation.
    With
    MATTHEW 23:37-38 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, {thou} that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under {her} wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

    Compare
    JOHN 12:37-38 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him: (38) That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    JOHN 12:41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
    With
    ISAIAH 6:1-5 In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple. (2) Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. (3) And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, {is} the Lord of hosts: the whole earth {is} full of his glory. (4) And the posts of the door moved at the voice of him that cried, and the house was filled with smoke. (5) Then said I, Woe {is} me! for I am undone; because I {am} a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.<<<

    ROMANS 9:5 Whose {are} the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ {came}, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. {RSV, NIV: “Christ, who is God over all”}

    COLOSSIANS 2:9-10 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    1 TIMOTHY 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
    TITUS 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
    {RSV,NIV: TITUS 2:13 awaiting our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ;}

    Compare
    Psa 45:6  Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre
    With
    Heb 1:8  But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

    2 PETER 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ: {RSV, NIV: “our God and Saviour Jesus Christ”}

    Compare
    Psa 102:24  I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
    Psa 102:25  Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
    With
    HEBREWS 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: {God the Father calls the Son “Lord.”

    REVELATION 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; these things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
    Arche (“Beginning”) The Greek for “beginning” is arche, from which we get our word “architect.” Its literal meaning, according to Greek scholars, is “origin, active cause, source, uncreated principle.” So the above verse is describing Jesus as the “architect,” or Creator of the Universe. In Rev 21:6 “arche” is applied to the Father, so it can't possibly mean “created being,” as Jehovah's Witnesses and other heretics maintain.

    Compare
    Psa 41:13  Blessed be the LORD God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.
    With
    MICAH 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, {though} thou be little among the thousands of Judah, {yet} out of thee shall he come forth unto me {that is} to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth {have been} from of old, from everlasting.

    JOHN 5:23 That all {men} should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father.

    REVELATION 5:8 . . . the four beasts and four {and} twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    Isa 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

    Compare
    REVELATION 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    With
    Gen 17:1  And when Abram was ninety years old an
    d nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

    Compare
    1 CHRONICLES 28:9 . . . the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts:

    With
    MATTHEW 9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts?

    MATTHEW 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, . . .
    REVELATION 2:23 . . . I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: . . .

    Compare
    JEREMIAH 23:24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
    With
    MATTHEW 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

    Compare
    DANIEL 9:9 To the Lord our God {belong} mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
    LUKE 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?
    With
    LUKE 5:20 And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.
    MARK 2:5-10 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this {man} thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

    ACTS 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon {God}, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

    Mat 26:63  But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
    Mat 26:64  Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
    Mat 26:65  Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy;

    (The high priest understood Jesus’ claim to be God and wrongly accused Him of blasphemy.)
    Blasphemy can only be committed against God.

    Compare
    Isa 40:3  The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God.
    With
    Mat 3:3  For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
    Mar 1:1  The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;
    Mar 1:2  As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.
    Mar 1:3  The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

    Compare
    Mar 2:28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

    With
    Exo 20:10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God:

    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
    Deu 32:3  Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
    Deu 32:4  He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    1Sa 2:2  There is none holy as the LORD: for there is none beside thee: neither is there any rock like our God.
    Psa 78:35  And they remembered that God was their rock, and the high God their redeemer.

    Mat 16:18  And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Exo 20:2  I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
    1Co 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

    Mal 3:6  For I am the LORD (yhovah), I change not;
    Heb 13:8  Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

    Exo 3:14  And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
    Joh 8:57  Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
    Joh 8:58  Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
    Joh 8:59  Then took they up stones to cast at him: (because Jesus claimed the name of God)

    Jehovah said: “…and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced” (Zec. 12:10). The preceding verses (1, 4, 7, 8) identify Jehovah as the one speaking. Christ is the one who was pierced, and John 19:37 clearly tells us that this prophecy was fulfilled in His crucifixion.

    *EZEKIEL 34:11-12,15,22,31 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, {even} I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. (12) As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep {that are} scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day . . . (15) I will feed my flock, and I will cause them to lie down, saith the Lord God . . . (22) Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle . . . (31) And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, {are} men, {and} I {am} your God, saith the Lord God. {cf. Ps 23:1, 80:1, 100:3, Is 40:11, Jer 23:1, 31:10}

    +JOHN 10:7,11,14-16,26-29 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep . . . (11) I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep . . . (14) I am the good shepherd, and know my {sheep}, and am known of mine. (15) As the Father knoweth me, even so I know the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. (16) And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, {and} one shepherd . . . (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave {them} me, is greater than all; and no {man} is able to pluck {them} out of my Father's hand. {cf. Ezek 34:23, Mic 5:4, Zech 13:7 w/Mt 26:31, Heb 13:20, 1 Pet 5:4, Rev 7:17}

    *ISAIAH 40:8 . . . the word of our God shall stand for ever.

    +MATTHEW 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    *PSALM 148:1-2 Praise ye the Lord. Praise ye the Lord from the heavens: praise him in the heights. (2) Praise ye him, all his angels : praise ye him, all his hosts.

    +HEBREWS 1:6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.

    *ISAIAH 62:5 For {as} a young man marrieth a virgin, {so} shall thy sons marry thee: and {as} the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, {so} shall thy God rejoice over thee. {cf. Is 54:5-6, Hos 2:16-20}

    +REVELATION 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready. {cf. Mt 24:44, 25:1,6,13, Jn 3:29, Rev 21:9}

    *DEUTERONOMY 10:17 For the Lord your God {is} God of Gods, and Lord of Lords, a great God, . . . {cf. Ps 136:2-3, 1 Tim 6:15}

    +REVELATION 17:14 . . . the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .{cf. Rev 19:16}

    *ISAIAH 48:17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; . . . {cf. 10:20, 43:3, 1 S
    am 2:2, Ps 89:18}

    +ACTS 3:13-14 The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Son Jesus; . . . (14) But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, . . . {cf. Acts 2:27 w/ Ps 16:10, Is 49:7}

    *REVELATION 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: . . . {cf. Is 60:19}

    +REVELATION 21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb {is} the light thereof.

    *DEUTERONOMY 32:39 . . . neither {is there any} that can deliver out of my hand. {cf. Jn 10:29}

    +JOHN 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any {man} pluck them out of my hand.

    *PROVERBS 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son {in whom} he delighteth.

    +REVELATION 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

    *PSALM 62:12 . . . unto thee, O Lord, {belongeth} mercy: for thou renderest to every man according to his work. {cf. Is 40:10}

    +MATTHEW 16:27 For the Son of man shall . . . reward every man according to his works.

    +REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    *EZEKIEL 34:17 . . . Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

    +MATTHEW 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth {his} sheep from the goats:

    *GALATIANS 1:4-5 . . . according to the will of God and our Father: (5) To whom {be} glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    +2 PETER 3:18 . . . our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him {be} glory both now and for ever. Amen. {cf. Heb 13:21}

    *JOHN 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and {of} the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. {cf. Mt 21;31, Lk 7:28, Acts 1:3, Rom 14:17, 1 Cor 4:20, 15:50, Col 4:11, Rev 12:10}

    +COLOSSIANS 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated {us} into the kingdom of his dear Son: {cf. Jn 18:36, Eph 5:5, 2 Tim 4:1, Heb 1:8, 2 Pet 1:1}

    *ROMANS 7:22 . . . the law of God . . . {cf. Ps 19:7}

    +GALATIANS 6:2 . . . fulfil the law of Christ.

    *ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of God . . .

    +ROMANS 8:9 . . . the Spirit of Christ, .. .

    *PSALM 71:5 For thou {art} my hope, O Lord God: . . .

    +1 TIMOTHY 1:1 . . . Lord Jesus Christ, {which is} our hope;

    *TITUS 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

    +ACTS 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

    *REVELATION 22:6 . . . the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel . . .

    +REVELATION 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches . . .

    *ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called {to be} an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, {cf. Mk 1:14, Rom 15:16, 1 Thess 2:2,8-9, 1 Pet 4:17}

    +ROMANS 15:19 . . . I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. {cf. Rom 1:16, 1 Cor 9:12, 2 Cor 2:12, 1 Thess 3:2}

    *1 CORINTHIANS 15:9 . . . I persecuted the church of God. {cf. 1 Cor 11:22, Gal 1:13}

    +MATTHEW 16:18 . . . thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; . . .

    +ROMANS 16:16 . . . The churches of Christ salute you.

    *TITUS 1:1 Paul, a servant of God, . . . {cf. Rom 12:11, Lk 4:8- “. . . him only shalt thou serve”}

    +ROMANS 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, . . . {cf. Eph 6:6, Col 3:24; servants of both: Jas 1:1, Rev 7:3, 11:18, 19:5}

    *ISAIAH 43:3 For I {am} the Lord thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: . . .

    2) *ISAIAH 43:11 I, {even} I, {am} the Lord; and beside me {there is} no saviour.

    3) *ISAIAH 49:26 . . . I the Lord {am} thy Saviour and thy Redeemer, the mighty One of Jacob.

    4) *HOSEA 13:4 Yet I {am} the Lord thy God . . . {there is} no saviour beside me. {cf. Ps 106:21, Is 45:21-22, 60:16, 63:8}

    5) *LUKE 1:47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

    6) *1 TIMOTHY 4:10 . . . the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. {cf. 1 Tim 1:1, 2:3, 2 Tim 1:9, Titus 1:3, 2:10, 3:4, Jude 1:25}

    1) #ISAIAH 49:5-6 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb {to be} his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, . . . (6) And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

    1)+LUKE 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord.
    2)4) +ACTS 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand {to be} a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

    5) +TITUS 2:13 . . . great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;

    6) +2 PETER 1:1 . . . God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

    7) +1 JOHN 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son {to be} the Saviour of the world.

    1)*ISAIAH 45:23 . . . unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. {cf. 66:23}
    2)2) +PHILIPPIANS 2:9-11 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: (10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of {things} in heaven, and {things} in earth, and {things} under the earth; (11) And {that} every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ {is} Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    1)*ISAIAH 35:4 . . . behold, your God will come {with} vengeance, {even} God {with} a recompence; he will come and save you.

    2) *ISAIAH 40:5 And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see {it} together: . . .

    3) *ISAIAH 40:10 Behold, the Lord God will come with strong {hand}, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward {is} with him, and his work before him.
    2)7) *JOEL 2:10-11 The earth shall quake before them; the heavens shall tremble: the sun and the moon shall be dark, and the stars shall withdraw their shining: (11) And the Lord shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp {is} very great: for {he is} strong that executeth his word: for the day of the Lord {is} great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
    3)5) +2 THESSALONIANS 1:7-8 . . . the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, (8) In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

    6) +REVELATION 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they {also} which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. {cf. Zech 12:10}
    4)8) +REVELATION 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward {is} with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    1)*PSALM 50:6 And the heavens shall declare his righteousness: for God is {judge} himself. Selah.
    2)
    3)*PSALM 96:13 Before the Lord: for he cometh, for he cometh to judge the earth: he shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.

    3) *ECCLESIASTES 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether {it be} good or whether {it be} evil.
    4)1) +JOHN 5:22,27 For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son . . . (27) And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

    2) +JOHN 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

    3) +ACTS 10:42 . . . it is he whi
    ch was ordained of God {to be} the Judge of quick and dead.

    4) +2 TIMOTHY 4:1 I charge {thee} therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
    5)5) +REVELATION 6:16-17 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: (17) For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
    6)) +REVELATION 19:11,15 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him {was} called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war . . . (15) And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

    1)*PSALM 24:10 Who is this King of glory? The Lord of hosts, he {is} the King of glory. Selah
    2)8) +REVELATION 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: . . .

    Compare
    Psa 102:24  I said, O my God, do not take me up in the half of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations.
    Psa 102:25  Before time You founded the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
    Psa 102:26  They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall wear out like a garment; You shall change them like clothing, and they shall be changed.
    Psa 102:27  But You are He, and Your years shall not be ended.

    With
    Heb 1:8  but as to the Son, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom;
    Heb 1:9  You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; because of this God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness beside Your fellows.” Psa. 45:6, 7
    Heb 1:10  And, “You, Lord, at the beginning founded the earth, and the heavens are works of Your hands.
    Heb 1:11  They will vanish away, but You will continue; and they will all become old, like a garment,
    Heb 1:12  and You shall fold them up like a covering, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail.

    Compare
    Isa 6:1  In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.
    Isa 6:2  Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly.
    Isa 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.
    Isa 6:10  Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

    With
    Joh 12:36  While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.
    Joh 12:37  But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
    Joh 12:38  That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
    Joh 12:39  Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
    Joh 12:40  He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
    Joh 12:41  These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

    Compare
    Psa 7:8  The LORD (Jehovah) shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
    Psa 7:9  Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

    1Ki 8:39  Then hear thou (Jehovah)  in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;)

    With
    Rev 2:23  And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I (Jesus) am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

    Psa 2:11  Serve the LORD (Jehovah) with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
    Psa 2:12  Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

    Compare
    Joe 2:32  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD (Jehovah) shall be delivered:
    With
    Act 2:21  And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    Rom 10:13  For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Isa 42:20  Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not. :O

    May 8, 2007 at 10:07 am#51693
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CB,
    Stop shouting.
    It does not help your claim that Jesus is not the Son of God but God.
    You see many words but have missed the basic truths it seems.
    Why did God need to use another person[in your parlance] for the conception of the Son?

    May 8, 2007 at 6:30 pm#51711
    Cubes
    Participant

    Thank you, t8.

    Hi All,

    I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of. Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.

    It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.

    Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims.

    So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies: two different citation and views of the same Psalm.

    My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable?

    On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem!

    Here is my current stance:
    I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus. Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out. We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea. The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe. I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH. But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33:

    Psa 33:6 By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
    Psa 33:7 He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.

    No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth! And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires! Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us. It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth. Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth.

    May 8, 2007 at 6:50 pm#51712
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,06:30)
    Thank you, t8.

    Hi All,

    I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of.  Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.  

    It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.    

    Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims.

    So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies:  two different citation and views of the same Psalm.

    My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable?

    On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem!

    Here is my current stance:
    I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus.  Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out.  We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea.  The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe.  I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH.  But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33:

    Psa 33:6   By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.  
    Psa 33:7   He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.  

    No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth!  And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires!  Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us.  It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth.  Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth.


    Cubes

    I think a close study of the NT passages referring to Yeshua being the one by/through whom all things are created will show that the Apostles were clearly not speaking of the world to come.

    And if they were, we would still have a problem because the scriptures says “ALL things” were created by him and for him”.

    Since YHWH takes claim that he is the only creator, then you would have YHWH making himself a liar by using the Son in the future world to create it.

    I am sorry to see Cubes that you are leaning further to the left with the Unitarians and the Arius doctrines.

    :(

    May 8, 2007 at 6:58 pm#51716
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:50)

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,06:30)
    Thank you, t8.

    Hi All,

    I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of.  Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.  

    It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.    

    Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims.

    So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies:  two different citation and views of the same Psalm.

    My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable?

    On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem!

    Here is my current stance:
    I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus.  Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out.  We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea.  The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe.  I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH.  But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33:

    Psa 33:6   By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.  
    Psa 33:7   He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.  

    No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth!  And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires!  Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us.  It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth.  Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth.


    Cubes

    I think a close study of the NT passages referring to Yeshua being the one by/through whom all things are created will show that the Apostles were clearly not speaking of the world to come.

    And if they were, we would still have a problem because the scriptures says “ALL things” were created by him and for him”.

    Since YHWH takes claim that he is the only creator, then you would have YHWH making himself a liar by using the Son in the future world to create it.

    I am sorry to see Cubes that you are leaning further to the left with the Unitarians and the Arius doctrines.

    :(


    Cubes

    BTW

    I left out part of the verse that is really unambiguous.

    Jn 1:3
    All things were *made by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made that was made*.

    Jn 1:10
    He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not.

    Its a far stretch to say that John 1:1-3 and Jn 1:10 is the future heavens and earth.

    :)

    May 8, 2007 at 7:08 pm#51717
    Cubes
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 07 2007,20:56)

    Quote
    Thanks WJ & CB,

    I first considered Heb 1:10-13 as applying to Jesus sometime in 2005 I think, when Is presented it to me…I read Ps 102 and the leap I could make was that 102:24b MUST be YHWH speaking reassuringly to his Son who in the same verse called on his GOD, saying, “O my God, Do not take me away in the midst of my days…”  Everytime I would go over those same verses, they would slow me down like a yellow cautionary light or a speed bump when driving, I'd consider it and move along regarding it to seem to say Christ laid the foundations of the world.  But again, it conflicted with much and didn't ADD up.  I just accepted it as a portion of scripture being difficult to understand either due to translation, or being “sealed.”  What was even more disturbing is that it did not harmonize or synch with the rest of Hebrews concerning Messiah, whom Hebrews portrays as the son of God, Lamb of God, and Highpriest of God, and NOT as God.  But as I said, I was willing to go along for the bumpy ride having nothing to add given my own limited understanding, which I declared in my first response here I believe.


    Cubes

    I am sorry you were swayed in the direction of the Arains. The truth shines brightly that the Lord Jesus the Monogenes (Unique) Son of God was/is God in the flesh, the Lord from heaven.

    BTW. What is your take on John 1:1 and Jn 20:28.

    Blessings. :)


    Hi WJ,

    John 1:1  I shared w/ you sometime ago.
    I've felt that if Jesus is the Word being spoken of in John 1:1 (as I've up until now believed), then the JW's are right, in that he is ANOTHER person apart from GOD, so I would say, “and the word was a God.”  I would cite Hebrews 1:8-9 to show that there is a God and the GOD of that GOD.  Two entities.

    If this isn't so, then I would subscribe to the Biblical Unitarian position which says that the word was not a personality until Bethlehem, but that GOD chose then to acknowledge all that has been and shall be in his son.  I've always told Isaiah that I personally have no particular stance on when Jesus came into existence:  One thing I know is that he is not the Immortal Invisible Living God, and the second thing is that I accept him to be who and  whatsover GOD declares him to be.   I was introduced only to Messiah, the son of God.  I don't know anything about any prior existence he might have had.  

    2.  Jesus as a humble man said of his own Father, at times, “Lord” and at times, “my God.”  Is he not greater than Thomas and his testimony true?

    So if Jesus is Thomas' Lord and God, then applying the same rule, YHWH is Jesus' Lord and GOD as he said so himself.

    God bless!

    May 8, 2007 at 7:23 pm#51720
    marthinus
    Participant

    Hi Cult Buster

    Exactly because he was begotten of God Before creation. We can go through all these and start this forum al over again.

    Lets look at John 5:18 I dont see where Jesus calls himself God, He was however calling God his own Father (We agree on this), the Jews made the assumption that he was making himself equal with God not Jesus.

    Lets look at John 10:30-33 You must read on to verse 36 the emphasis on whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said I am the Son of God? (Note the question mark, Jesus is repeating the acusation in verse 33 and then repeating what he meant, because I said I am the Son of God)

    Look at John 14:28-31 and explain what Jesus meant when he said the following: rejoice because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

    Read Psalm 110
    Very very important Read Psalm 22 Tel me who this is about (verse 16 to 19) also what was Jesus words on the cross Matthew 27:46 Dont you think Psalm 22:1 is remarkably similar and that verse 16 to 19 is a coincidance. Who is the LORD in verse 19 and who is praying? Verse 22

    Working on the rest of the scriptures

    Love you in Christ Jesus

    marthinus

    May 8, 2007 at 8:43 pm#51721
    Cubes
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,11:58)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:50)

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,06:30)
    Thank you, t8.

    Hi All,

    I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of.  Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.  

    It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.    

    Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims.

    So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies:  two different citation and views of the same Psalm.

    My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable?

    On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem!

    Here is my current stance:
    I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus.  Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out.  We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea.  The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe.  I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH.  But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33:

    Psa 33:6   By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.  
    Psa 33:7   He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.  

    No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth!  And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires!  Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us.  It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth.  Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth.


    Cubes

    I think a close study of the NT passages referring to Yeshua being the one by/through whom all things are created will show that the Apostles were clearly not speaking of the world to come.

    And if they were, we would still have a problem because the scriptures says “ALL things” were created by him and for him”.

    Since YHWH takes claim that he is the only creator, then you would have YHWH making himself a liar by using the Son in the future world to create it.

    I am sorry to see Cubes that you are leaning further to the left with the Unitarians and the Arius doctrines.

    :(


    Cubes

    BTW

    I left out part of the verse that is really unambiguous.

    Jn 1:3
    All things were *made by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made that was made*.

    Jn 1:10
    He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not.

    Its a far stretch to say that John 1:1-3 and Jn 1:10 is the future heavens and earth.

    :)


    Hi WJ,

    I agree. Without the word, nothing was made that was made.

    1. Either way, the Word accomplished what was commanded and desired by the speaker, so the speaker, IMO, has ownership both of his word and of his creation.

    May 8, 2007 at 9:49 pm#51727
    Proclaimer
    Participant

    Quote (t8 @ May 07 2007,18:47)

    Quote (t8 @ April 23 2007,16:20)

    Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,19:20)
    Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation.


    Hi CultB.

    So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?


    Hi CultB.

    So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?


    Hi CultB.

    So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?

    A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.

    Thanks.

    May 8, 2007 at 10:23 pm#51730
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,08:43)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,11:58)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:50)

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,06:30)
    Thank you, t8.

    Hi All,

    I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of.  Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.  

    It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.    

    Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims.

    So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies:  two different citation and views of the same Psalm.

    My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable?

    On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem!

    Here is my current stance:
    I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus.  Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out.  We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea.  The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe.  I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH.  But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33:

    Psa 33:6   By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.  
    Psa 33:7   He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.  

    No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth!  And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires!  Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us.  It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth.  Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth.


    Cubes

    I think a close study of the NT passages referring to Yeshua being the one by/through whom all things are created will show that the Apostles were clearly not speaking of the world to come.

    And if they were, we would still have a problem because the scriptures says “ALL things” were created by him and for him”.

    Since YHWH takes claim that he is the only creator, then you would have YHWH making himself a liar by using the Son in the future world to create it.

    I am sorry to see Cubes that you are leaning further to the left with the Unitarians and the Arius doctrines.

    :(


    Cubes

    BTW

    I left out part of the verse that is really unambiguous.

    Jn 1:3
    All things were *made by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made that was made*.

    Jn 1:10
    He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not.

    Its a far stretch to say that John 1:1-3 and Jn 1:10 is the future heavens and earth.

    :)


    Hi WJ,

    I agree.  Without the word, nothing was made that was made.  

    1.  Either way, the Word accomplished what was commanded  and desired by the speaker, so the speaker, IMO, has ownership both of his word and of his creation.


    Sorry Cubes.

    The Word John is partraying and speaking of is not the spoken word of God.

    John tells us in revelation his “name” is the Word of God.

    If Jesus was just the spoken word that the Father spoke into existence. Then what were the words that Jesus spoke when he said…

    Jn 6:63
    It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

    Jn 14:10
    Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

    Are the words Jesus spoke a person?

    If you accept that John 1:1-14 is not Yeshua that was with God and was made flesh, who took on the form of a servant, made in the likeness of sinfull flesh, then you violate all kinds of rules of interpretation and Greek grammer. Dont forget the pronouns in those verses.

    To me you are reaching a long way out there to say John meant Yeshua was the spoken word.

    You say…

    Quote
    2.  Jesus as a humble man said of his own Father, at times, “Lord” and at times, “my God.”  Is he not greater than Thomas and his testimony true?

    So if Jesus is Thomas' Lord and God, then applying the same rule, YHWH is Jesus' Lord and GOD as he said so himself


    Yes and the Father calls Jesus Lord and God.

    And yes he is greater than Thomas which makes it all the more believable that neither Jesus nor John rebuked Thomas a strict Monotheist for saying to him “My Lord and My God”.

    Seriously Cubes, do you believe John would have even recorded this incident without speaking against what Thomas did if he believed it was not so, or that Jesus would have said “Thomas call the Father your God”.

    Look what Jesus says and John writes immediately after…

    Jn 20:
    29 Jesus saith unto him, *Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
    30 And *many other signs* truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
    31 But these are written, that ye might believe that *Jesus is the Christ*, the Son of God; and that *believing ye might have life through his name*.

    John knew who this Monogenes “Unique” Son of God was.

    When he started writting John 1:1, he understood Yeshua was one with the Father in “every way”. Not just unity here, but plurality of oneness in being.

    Study about the One Spirit and
    you will see.

    Cubes, I believe you are sincere. I dont believe you are 100% sure of your belief.

    I think you may have trouble sleeping at night.

    I hope not, and I hope you do not lean further left to being Unitarian.

    For you will need to buy a lot of white out for the many scriptures that will have to be tossed or misinterpreted.

    Blessings!

    May 8, 2007 at 11:14 pm#51739
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,08:43)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,11:58)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,06:50)

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,06:30)
    Thank you, t8.

    Hi All,

    I'd like us to consider something that AP brought up regarding the LXX manuscript (Greek OT) which I was not aware of.  Apparently, there is a Hebrew manuscript that reads Psalm 102 differently, from the LXX.  

    It would appear that the KJV Hebrew 1:10f text is influenced by the LXX version of Psalm 102, leading to the Trinitarian stance… which I also for a time subscribed to as best as I could make of that scripture.    

    Trouble is that the KJV which I have, and the one at blb.org which I usually cite from, does not include the details of Ps 102:23f which the LXX claims.

    So now we see in part where the confusion over the ambiguity of Heb 1:10f lies:  two different citation and views of the same Psalm.

    My question at this point is why this difference, and how do we determine which manuscript is more reliable?

    On the one hand, it is reassuring to think that the apostles must have gotten their “all things were created by/through him [Jesus]” from somewhere, and on the other hand, two different manuscripts is a problem!

    Here is my current stance:
    I understand the Trinitarian position better and so empathize even more, but the version of the first covenant (KJV) that I have and read, abundantly show that YHWH alone was the creator of the existing universe, and that YHWH is the GOD and Father of Christ Jesus.  Thus, from that position, AP's view that the creation in question must refer to the coming age, cannot be totally ruled out.  We know the heavens and earth shall be renewed anyway and that Jesus would be Lord of everything excepting the Father, so this is not too strange an idea.  The strange idea is about the real creator of the current universe.  I'm going through the Psalms now and can tell you that Messiah is so far, at Ps 40, not yet YHWH.  But here's an interesting thing I found at Psalm 33:

    Psa 33:6   By the word of YHWH were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.  
    Psa 33:7   He gathereth the waters of the sea together as an heap: he layeth up the depth in storehouses.  

    No question, YHWH created all things by/through his word, the breath of his mouth!  And his breath no doubt has the power of his holy spirit to perform whatsover he desires!  Now the word became flesh or was made flesh and dwelt among us.  It doesn't say that the Word Spoke or that the word breathed by its own mouth.  Rather, YHWH's word and the breath of his mouth.


    Cubes

    I think a close study of the NT passages referring to Yeshua being the one by/through whom all things are created will show that the Apostles were clearly not speaking of the world to come.

    And if they were, we would still have a problem because the scriptures says “ALL things” were created by him and for him”.

    Since YHWH takes claim that he is the only creator, then you would have YHWH making himself a liar by using the Son in the future world to create it.

    I am sorry to see Cubes that you are leaning further to the left with the Unitarians and the Arius doctrines.

    :(


    Cubes

    BTW

    I left out part of the verse that is really unambiguous.

    Jn 1:3
    All things were *made by him*; and *without him* was not *any thing made that was made*.

    Jn 1:10
    He was in the world, and *the world was made by him*, and the world knew him not.

    Its a far stretch to say that John 1:1-3 and Jn 1:10 is the future heavens and earth.

    :)


    Hi WJ,

    I agree.  Without the word, nothing was made that was made.  

    1.  Either way, the Word accomplished what was commanded  and desired by the speaker, so the speaker, IMO, has ownership both of his word and of his creation.


    Cubes

    No you dont agree.

    John says the Word that made all things is a “Him”.

    :)

    May 8, 2007 at 11:50 pm#51748
    Adam Pastor
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,00:14)
    John says the Word that made all things is a “Him”.


    John said no such thing. John wrote in Greek.
    According to Greek grammar, the gender of the pronoun has to match the gender of the word associated to it.
    In this case, the masculine noun 'logos'.
    John writes the equivalent male pronoun autou.

    However, when making sense of the passage, even to translate it into a language such as English; it ought to be obvious to the reader/translator; that 'logos'/word is not a person … not a him or a she … but rather an it.
    'logos' means a word, an account, communication, speech etc … not a person. Thus 'logos'/word is an it.

    This was obvious to William Tyndale and the translators of the Geneva/Bishop's/Coverdale bibles, etc.
    William Tyndale + his contemporaries translated John 1:1-4 from the original Greek into English as follows:

    (John 1:1-4)  In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made. 4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Tyndale understood John's sense of the prologue; he did not read Jesus into Verses 1-4; Tyndale (+ others) understood from the Greek that the pronoun autou can be rightly in this context be translated it

    As Colin Brown so rightly said …

    Quote
    It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said, ‘In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.’

    May 9, 2007 at 12:39 am#51756
    Cubes
    Participant

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,15:23)
    Cubes, I believe you are sincere. I dont believe you are 100% sure of your belief.

    I think you may have trouble sleeping at night.

    I hope not, and I hope you do not lean further left to being Unitarian.

    For you will need to buy a lot of white out for the many scriptures that will have to be tossed or misinterpreted.

    Blessings!


    Hi WJ,
    I hope to respond to the other aspects of this post later, but I thought to address this, to simply say:

    Yes I am sincere.
    No I have no trouble sleeping at night because the Lord God desires truth in the innermost parts and calls us to love one another, and I try to keep my life simple on those terms as I seek and worship him.  

    I have also from early on submitted to the direction of God's word.  What I mean by this is that I don't want to find myself struggling w/ GOD so have trained my heart to yield when his truth is presented, rather than hold on to my own ideologies.
    If I had a dime for everytime the church went after a new and strange doctrine… So I've had to rely on Jesus' example, and say, “it is written…”   that I might be led by his spirit and stay on track… and so far so good.  Think of the trouble even King David got himself into when he tried to move the Ark of God without first consulting the scriptures?!  And if any one had the spirit, King David did.  So I rest my case there.

    My belief that God is the Father and that Jesus is his son, has only strengthened since posting on HN.  Not that I had any doubts but still, you know, moving from strength to strength and from glory to glory.

    Yet, until I came here, I just took for granted that Jesus is the son of GOD.  It never occurred to me to wonder whether he was 100% human, actually conceived with the egg of a human woman, was placed wholly in the womb, etc until these discussions, and what either position (dual nature vs. 100% man) gives rise to.

    I am still in the process of discovering, learning and growing in my faith, following where the trail of scripture leads.  

    It is true also that when it comes to new concepts in doctrine, I'd like to compare things to the written words of the prophets.  Paul said he preached nothing different than what was foretold by them for which he was being persecuted; Jesus said the prophets and Psalms have spoken of him… I am trying to get to know him afresh or to be reminded again of some forgotten things from that point of view, and if needed, make needed correction where I've erred….

    Hope that helps to clarify my position.

    May 9, 2007 at 12:55 am#51757
    Cubes
    Participant

    So hopefully, WJ, we'll explore what the New Testament (2nd Covenant) means by Ps 33:6-7, if that does not mean the Christ or the means by which GOD made the worlds.

    I am not willing to construct such a case without the 1st Covenant, though… because we need to be able to see their references.

    So far, it's led to my realizing that there are two manuscripts in question when speaking of Ps 102. I was at a Jewish site today to try and get their take on it, and this is what I read, bearing in mind that they oppose Christianity so I do not share their view against Christ:

    searching wrote:

    https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin&#8230;.ry61424
    Can someone help me give an explation to Psalms 22.

    REUVEN:
    Psalm 22 is often called a Messianic psalm and commentators use it as a 'proof' text regarding the crucifixion of J*. Matthew 27:35 alludes to it when it recounts that the soldiers at the foot of the cross cast lots for the garments of J*. Let's take a look at the Psalm.

    Quote:
    For dogs have surrounded me; a band of evildoers has encompassed me; they pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; They divide my garments among them, and for my clothing they cast lots. But Thou, 0 L-rd, be not far off,' 0 Thou my help, hasten to my assistance.
    Psalm 22:16-29

    This is a typical modem English translation of this psalm in Xian bibles. However, the Hebrew scriptures translate the last part of verse 16 like this: “…like the prey of a lion are my hands and my feet;” not 'they pierced my hands and my feet.' Why?

    The Hebrew word is 'ka'ari' which literally means 'like a lion'. It can be found in Strong's #738. In the King James Version this word is translated 78 times as 'lion' or 'like a lion'. ONLY in this verse was it changed to 'pierced'. One has to wonder why? Is somebody trying to force a point?

    Had David the psalmist wanted to actually write the word 'pierced' he would have to have written either daqar or ratza which are common Hebrew words in the scriptures. There appears to have been a deliberate mistranslation of the word 'ka'ari' in order to support a later Xian position. The fact that this translation of 'ka 'ari' differs from the other 78 times the same word is translated makes it highly suspect.

    Please keep in mind that the Scriptures were written in Hebrew not in 17th century King James English. What has made Xians tragically vulnerable to Bible tampering is that only a very, very tiny minority are able to read their Bibles in its original language. The prevailing misconception is that English translations are “pure' and the inerrant word of G-d. Sadly, as we can see, this is not the complete truth.

    It is noteworthy to learn that the mistranslation of Psalm 22 has not escaped the notice of Xian scholars. Unfortunately, however, rather than repent over it and correct it, another controversy has arisen in an attempt to justify the mistake.

    One commentator suggested that although 'ka 'ari' does in fact mean 'like a lion', that most likely an ancient scribe made a mistake of changing the word to 'pierced' by modifying one small letter in the Hebrew when he painstakingly copied the scriptures. He asserts that 'ka 'ari' was mistakenly copied as 'ka'aru'when a yod (i) was changed to a vav (u). Nice try but ka'aru doesn't mean anything in Hebrew. It's not a word! This explanation is completely unfounded and worthless.

    Other commentators resort to the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible) to justify using 'pierced'. However, this argument is also seriously flawed. The 72 Rabbis who produced the Septuagine translated ONLY the Torah – the first five books – some 260 years before the time of J*! This is an undisputed historical fact well documented in secular and church history. The Septuagint currently available which includes the Prophets and the Writings – the complete 'Old Testament' – is a Xian work, entirely Greek in its composition and therefore removed from the original Hebrew. The translation into Greek of the books of the prophets and the writings was completed in the 3rd to 4th century, after doctrines had been developed by Constantinian theologians. With reference to that particular period of church history, a number of church historians attest to the deliberate tampering of texts that was done.

    Dr. Herbert Marsh, a 19th century English Bishop wrote: “It is a certain fact that several readings in our common printed text are nothing more than alterations deliberately made by Origen, whose authority was so great in the Xian Church (230 BCE) that emendations which he proposed, though, as he himself acknowledged were supported by the evidence of no manuscripts, were nevertheless generally received.”

    St. Gregory, the 4th century Bishop, in a letter to St. Jerome wrote: “A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire. Our forefathers and doctors have often said not what they thought, but what circumstances and necessity dictated.”

    Dr. Conyers Middleton, 18th century church historian said: “There never was any period of time in all ecclesiastical history in which so many rank heresies were publicly professed nor in which so many spurious books were forged and published by the Xians, under the name of Christ, and the apostles and the apostolic writers, as in those primitive years. Several of these forged books are frequently cited and applied in defense of Xianity by the most eminent fathers of the same ages, as true and genuine pieces.”

    Faustus, a 5th century Bishop wrote: “Many things have been inserted by our ancestors into the speeches of our L-rd which, though put forth under His name, do not agree with his faith; especially since, as already has been proven – these things were written not by the Christ, nor by His apostles, but a long while after their deaths, by I know not what sort of people, not agreeing with themselves, who made up their tale of reports and opinions merely, and yet, fathering the whole upon the names of the apostles of the L-rd or on those who were supposed to follow the Apostles, they maliciously pretended that they had written their lies and conceits according to them.”

    Historical records such as those quoted above, as well as many others, provoked the following evaluation from Dr. I. Hooykaas, a 19th century Protestant Pastor in Holland to write: “Not one of these five books (four Gospels and Acts) was really written by the person whose name it bears, and they are all of more recent date than the heading would lead us to suppose.”

    This problem is illustrated in Luke's Gospel in the following way.

    Quote:
    And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up; and as was his custom, he entered the synagogue on the Sabbath, and stood up to read. And the book of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. And he opened the book, and found the place where it was written, “The Spirit of the L-rd is upon me, because he anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim release to the captives, and recovery of sight to the blind, to set free those who are downtrodden, To proclaim the favorable year of the L-rd. “And he closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant, and sat down,' and the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed upon him. And he began to say to them, “Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing.”
    Luke 4:16-21

    Let's follow our policy of checking the prophecy quoted.
    Quote:
    The Spirit of the L-rd G-d is upon me, because the L-rd has anointed me to bring good news to
    the afflicted,' He has sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to captives, and freedom to prisoners; To proclaim the favorable year of the L-rd, and the day of vengeance of our G-d,' to comfort all who mourn, To grant those who mourn in Zion, giving them a garland instead of ashes, the oil of gladness instead of mourning, the mantle of praise instead of a spirit of fainting. So they will be called oaks of righteousness, the planting of the L-rd, that He may be glorified
    Isaiah 61:1-3

    Wait a minute….did you notice that something is missing in Isaiah that is included in Luke? '…recovery of sight to the blind…' Isaiah says nothing about that but the phrase about healing the blind is found in the Septuagint version of Isaiah though it is not in the Hebrew. Was it inserted to validate the healing miracles attributed to J* in the gospels?

    Even more curiously, since that phrase is not in the Hebrew scriptures, was J* reading from a Greek scroll in Nazareth??? In the synagogue??? I strongly doubt it!!!!

    May 9, 2007 at 1:04 am#51758
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Adam Pastor @ May 09 2007,11:50)

    Quote (WorshippingJesus @ May 09 2007,00:14)
    John says the Word that made all things is a “Him”.


    John said no such thing. John wrote in Greek.
    According to Greek grammar, the gender of the pronoun has to match the gender of the word associated to it.
    In this case, the masculine noun 'logos'.
    John writes the equivalent male pronoun autou.

    However, when making sense of the passage, even to translate it into a language such as English; it ought to be obvious to the reader/translator; that 'logos'/word is not a person … not a him or a she … but rather an it.
    'logos' means a word, an account, communication, speech etc … not a person. Thus 'logos'/word is an it.

    This was obvious to William Tyndale and the translators of the Geneva/Bishop's/Coverdale bibles, etc.
    William Tyndale + his contemporaries translated John 1:1-4 from the original Greek into English as follows:

    (John 1:1-4)  In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by it; and without it was not any thing made that was made. 4 In it was life; and the life was the light of men.

    Tyndale understood John's sense of the prologue; he did not read Jesus into Verses 1-4; Tyndale (+ others) understood from the Greek that the pronoun autou can be rightly in this context be translated it

    As Colin Brown so rightly said …

    Quote
    It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said, ‘In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.’


    AP

    I admit that I am not trained in Greek.

    But it seems to me you are saying that even though the Greek says what it says using the Pronoun “autos” that John obviously could not have meant what he wrote because it dosnt make sence to translate it that way.

    Is this what you are saying?

    Now, if we follow the same logic for these verses then lets see what happens when we translate “Autos” to it in the following verses…

    Jn 1:
    10 (it) was in the world, and the world was made by (it), and the world knew (it) not.
    [11] (it) came unto (its) own, and (its) own received (it) not.
    [12] But as many as received (it), to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on (its) name:

    I am not trying to be rediculous. But do you have any other example in scripture where this “Rule” applied to “Autos”?

    AP, I think I will trust the Translators, especially since all the major credible translations render John 1:1-3 as Him and not it.

    King James Version – translation committee of 54 scholars, conclusion same as above.
    New King James Version – 119 scholars.
    New American Standard Bible – 54 scholars
    Contemporary English Version – 100+ scholars
    English Standard Version – 100+ scholars
    New Jerusalem Bible – 36 scholars

    In just these 5 versions there are over 463 Greek and Hebrew and Aramaic scholars.

    All of them seem to agree to the proper translation of the Word as “HIM”.

    You say…

    Quote
    As Colin Brown so rightly said …
    It is a common but patent misreading of the opening of John’s Gospel to read it as if it said, ‘In the beginning was the Son, and the Son was with God and the Son was God.’


    Yes I agree, the Word was not a Son untill he took on the likeness of sinfull flesh.

    :)

    May 9, 2007 at 1:04 am#51759
    Cubes
    Participant

    And from this website, a Jewish interpretation of Ps 22:

    http://www.kosherjudaism.com/tehillim22humor.html

    Much as I disagree w/ the denial that this is a fulfillment of prophecy concerning Christ, their interpretation helps me to even appreciate the Lord Jesus so much more. When he could have “cussed and died” he rather exhorted, encouraged the people of GOD and praised GOD till the very end.

    ………..

    Tehillim 22

    What if it was about Jesus…?
    I was once asked this question by a Missionary concerning “Psalm” 22. He was so concerned over verse 22:17 being about Jesus that I told him:

    Bill,

    If you accept that this verse is speaking of a Moshiach, then you obvisouly believe that Jesus did all of the things mentioned in it, and that the entire psalm decribes him and the events to a tee. You must, because you are claiming that he fulfilled this “prophecy”.

    Ok, rather than debate about a single sentense or a single word, let's go with the entire Psalm. And I will even ascribe all of the events to Jesus, and I will even use “pierce” in the one verse that you are so adamant about. It isn;t a problem for me because if you read through all of verses 2-27 (or 1-26 in your numbering system) you will see why “pierce” or “lion” doesn't add weight to your case, but in fact diminishes to into nothing.

    So let's see if you can accept that this entire Psalm is of the Moshiach, because once you read the entire psalm, you will see that if you want the person in this Psalm to be Jesus, then you need to also accept everything else that it says, which includes removing all deification from him as well.

    Ok?

    ——————————————————————————–

    PSALM 22 (Revised for Christians)

    22:2 – “My G-d, my G-d, for what purpose have You forsaken me, and my crying words are far from my Help?”

    (Here we have Jesus on the cross, a distraught man feeling abandoned by G-d. He believes that his words are being ignored by G-d, far from the One who can help.)

    22:3 – “My G-d, I call out by day, and You do not answer! And at night [and You do not answer me]! And there is no inner-quiet/calm for me.”

    (Jesus declares that he has been feeling abandoned by G-d, not just at this instant, but day and night, over a period of time, alone and despondent. Feelings of abandonment and despair are based on fear, and it is normal for a human being who is condemned to die to be afraid and feel abandoned instead of facing his execution while declaring his faith in G-d.)

    22:4 “But it is You Who are holy, [it is You] Who inhabits the praises of Israel.”

    (Jesus is declaring that only G-d is the expression of “kedushah”, this experiance that is beyond the grasp of humanity, including himself, and that Israel has always declares it's praises to G-d alone and no other.)

    22:5 “It was with You that our fathers felt secure, [trusting], and you provided for them [delivering them from their distress].”

    (Here Jesus is declaring that just as G-d helped the Patriarchs out of their time of trouble, he too wanted to be saved from this hour of terror. But unlike them, he did not feel very secure, or trusting, for his feelings of abandonment are immense).

    22:6 “It was to You that they cried out, and they escaped danger because of You. They trusted in You and were not dissapointed [in their expectation of deliverance].”

    (Jesus is declaring that only G-d can help him, just as he helped the Patriarchs. Jesus is declaring that not by his righteousness, but the righteousness of the Patriarchs may he be delivered from this terror through the memory of their righteousness.)

    22:7 “But [compared to them] I am a worm, and not [even worthy of being] a man, I am scorned of men and despised by the nation.”

    (Jesus declares that he recognizes that he is not at the level of spirituality as the Patriarchs, asks G-d to deliver him from his terror on their righteousness even though he does not deserve it. And the Jewish people, he says, have declared that he is not worthy, they despise him and want nothing to do with him.)

    22:8 “All those who see me, scorn me. They reject me with a sneer of the lip and their shaking head.”

    (Jesus is acknowledging that everyone, without exception, reject him. Mocking him, belittling him, or shaking the head, wondering how someone could fall so far. He is friendless and alone, with only G-d to talk to, who has ignored him.)

    22:9 [“They are saying:] 'Let us toss it to HaShem! He will deliver it, He will save it', [and they mockingly say] 'He takes pleasure in him'.”

    (Jesus is saying that his enemies are planning to rip him off of the cross, [since he already said the “My G-d, my G-d, while he was on the cross, and this comes next]. And they now want to do something really nasty, just to prove that G-d has no real interest in this man, treating him as though he is not a man, but a thing.)

    As a side note, the Hebrew word “gohl” [cast/wrest] implies difficulty in holding onto something before casting a struggling object, pulling it away before tossing it aside)

    22:10 “For it was You Who thrust me from the womb, [it was You Who] gave me hope [while I was nursing] upon my mother's breast.”

    (Jesus is declaring that while he may not have wanted to be born, and maybe his birth was not an easy one, still, as far as he could remember, he always trusted in the One G-d, that G-d would always be there to help when he needed it. And he really needs help now. He is begging to be set free.)

    22:11 “It was upon You that I was sent from the the uterus, from the womb of my mother. You are my G-d.”

    (Oh, this is a tough one. Jesus is declaring that he has always been drawn to G-d, even before he was born, that he had an innate knowing and devout experience of G-d, even while in the womb, declaring that the One and only G-d who created him is his G-d too!)

    22:12 “Be not far from me, for misfortune is imminent, since there is no help.”

    (This repeats the theme of verse 2-3, where Jesus feels that he has been abandoned, and declares that there is no human help that can get him out of this mess, and that if G-d doesn't come through, the G-d he has always believed in, then he will soon die.)

    22:13 “Many bulls have come around me, the brave ones of Bashan have encircled me!”

    (Jesus is noting that the powerful ones of the Gentile nations are all around him, for Bulls are typically representative of powerful nations, just as 70 bulls were sacrificed for the 70 powerful nations in the Temple. Bashan was, at the time of this Psalm, one of those nations. Jesus was telling G-d that the place where he was being crucified were full of gentiles of various kinds who wanted him dead. Blast those Romans! Damn those Greeks!)

    22:14 “They open up their mouth against me, they are a lion, ravening, roaring.”

    (Here, Jesus is saying how all of the enemies of the Jews who are also his enemies and have put him in this predicament, are “roaring”, attacking him in unison, seeking his destruction as the non-Jewish enemies have plotted for his death. The metaphor of a beast, a lion is more powerful than a bull, and it is the first of the times it is used in thie Psalm).

    22:15 “I am spilling out, like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has become like wax that is melting within my deepest parts.”

    (Jesus is saying that he is like water, which has no form of it's own, for he feels like he has no support from man or G-d. Even his limbs no longer are of any use, for he is feels crippled, weak, and despairs, his heart poured out to the One G-d).

    22:16 “My strength is dried up like a clay shard, and my tongue feels glued to my palate. And You have sent me to be covered
    with the dust of death.”

    (Jesus feels that his limited strength is failing, he is thirsty and requires water to survive, he knows that without G-d saving him, that he will soon die. And if so, then so be it.)

    (Ok, I will let the next verse read “pierce” just for the fun of it instead of the previously used “lion”!)

    22:17 “For dogs have already surrounded me. A company of evil doers who are piercing my hands and feet”

    (Jesus is saying that while he is on the cross, non Jews, or “dogs” (See “Matthew” where Jesus refers to non-Jews in this manner) are sorrounding him and piercing his hands and feet.)

    22:18 “I recall to myself all of my “bones” They (the evil doers) behold this and look at me.”

    (Jesus is recalling the past of those who came before who are long dead (as he did in verse 5), and the evil gentiles who did this to him, they see this, and they stare in bewilderment that he is not crying for them to let him go, but is instead recounting the deads of the righteous Jews who are the foundation of Israel [something that the “gospels” must have left out).

    22:19 “They divide my garments among themselves, casting lots for my clothing.”

    (Here Jesus is declaring that the non-Jews, the enemies of the Jewish people, are taking his property [which was slashed into shreds during his lashing], and they are even gambling to see who can get the best of these stringy garments.)

    22:20 “But You HaShem, do not be far off. You are my strength. Hasten to help me!”

    (Jesus is saying that he is but mortal, weak, and dying, and that only the One G-d who created him can help, for only Hashem is the true source of all strength.)

    22:21 “Deliver my soul from the sword, and my one and only from the power of the dog”

    (Here, Jesus is praying that he not die by the sword, and that the Jewish people with whom he was “yechid” [united with ] should not be overpowered by their enemies as he has been.)

    22:22 Save me from the lions mouth, for you have already heard me from the horns of the Re'emin”)

    (Oops. There is that pesky “lion” metaphor again! Here we have Jesus saying that the evil doers (See verse 14) who seek his death and the death of the Jewish people are upon him. Jesus doesn't want to die and cries out for deliverance, just as he has recounted again and again asking to be saved, but it will be a cry unanswered.)

    22:23 “I will declare Your Name to my bretheren, I will praise You in the midst of the congregations with songs proclaiming Your mighty acts.”

    (Here, Jesus is saying that if he survives this, he will speak of HaShem to the Jewish people, praising HaShem to all of the congregations of Jews everywhere, and speaking not of himself, but only of the greatness of HaShem. Hmmm, that is problematic for one who is supposed to be G-d!)

    22:24 “You [Jewish people] who are in awe of HaShem, praise Him with songs proclaiming His mighty acts. All of you children of Jacob, glorify Him (G-d) and stand in awe of Him (G-d), all of you people of Israel!”

    (Another deity problem arises. Here, Jesus turns his atttention away from himself and cries out to the Jewish people to do what he has promised to do, to praise HaShem only, and serve Him in all of His ways. In fact, it seems as though he has cut himself away from any intermediary form and is telling people to pray directly to Hashem.)

    22:25 “For He (G-d) has neither despised the nor abhored the lowliness of the poor, nor has He hid His presence from him, and when he cried to Him, He heard!

    (Now Jesus is declaring that blessed are the poor (ahni) for they will know G-d and he will respond. In this way, he is recalling his sermon on the mount and declaring himself as an “ahni”, a poor man who has nothing of his own)

    22:26 “From You comes my praise, in the great congregation I will pay my vows, in the presence of those who are in awe of him”

    (Jesus is declaring that any praises that he recieves is by way of HaShem, and not of anything that he has done. He is also saying that one day, he will come before the great Sanhedrin, consisting of Jews who are in awe of HaShem, and will pay his “neder” (a vow). A Jew who makes a vow is required to bring an atonement for having done so. It's a sin with a method of correction. And Jesus is admitting that he will atone if he will but be set free.)

    22:27 “Let the meek eat and be satisfied. Let them praise ]HaShem, those who seek Him, may your hearts be alive forever”

    (Here we have Jesus speaking of the humble Jews, that they should come together, celebrate, and bentch together. He speaks of those who seek to serve HaShem and no other G-d. And declares that their passion should be the type of passion that should live forever, to serve the One G-d. Do we see a pattern here of whom Jesus is telling the people to have a relationship with and Who alone to pray to? Do we see that the speaker does not say me but Him? Do we see that the speaker not only doesn't declare his own worthiness to be served but directs people to serve HaShem alone?)

    ——————————————————————————–

    Do you know something Bill? If you are willing to accept that this entire Psalm speaks of the central figure not being G-d, of telling others to pray alone to HaShem and no other, and that he is not only unworthy, but is simply a man, I am more than willing to switch the word “lion” for “pierce”!

    http://www.kosherjudaism.com/tehillim22humor.html

    May 9, 2007 at 6:08 am#51792
    Worshipping Jesus
    Participant

    Quote (Cubes @ May 09 2007,13:04)
    And from this website, a Jewish interpretation of Ps 22:

    http://www.kosherjudaism.com/tehillim22humor.html

    Much as I disagree w/ the denial that this is a fulfillment of prophecy concerning Christ, their interpretation helps me to even appreciate the Lord Jesus so much more.  When he could have “cussed and died” he rather exhorted, encouraged the people of GOD and praised GOD till the very end.

    ………..

    Tehillim 22

    What if it was about Jesus…?
    I was once asked this question by a Missionary concerning “Psalm” 22. He was so concerned over verse 22:17 being about Jesus that I told him:

    Bill,

    If you accept that this verse is speaking of a Moshiach, then you obvisouly believe that Jesus did all of the things mentioned in it, and that the entire psalm decribes him and the events to a tee. You must, because you are claiming that he fulfilled this “prophecy”.

    Ok, rather than debate about a single sentense or a single word, let's go with the entire Psalm. And I will even ascribe all of the events to Jesus, and I will even use “pierce” in the one verse that you are so adamant about. It isn;t a problem for me because if you read through all of verses 2-27 (or 1-26 in your numbering system) you will see why “pierce” or “lion” doesn't add weight to your case, but in fact diminishes to into nothing.

    So let's see if you can accept that this entire Psalm is of the Moshiach, because once you read the entire psalm, you will see that if you want the person in this Psalm to be Jesus, then you need to also accept everything else that it says, which includes removing all deification from him as well.

    Ok?

    ——————————————————————————–

    PSALM 22 (Revised for Christians)

    22:2 – “My G-d, my G-d, for what purpose have You forsaken me, and my crying words are far from my Help?”

    (Here we have Jesus on the cross, a distraught man feeling abandoned by G-d. He believes that his words are being ignored by G-d, far from the One who can help.)

    22:3 – “My G-d, I call out by day, and You do not answer! And at night [and You do not answer me]! And there is no inner-quiet/calm for me.”

    (Jesus declares that he has been feeling abandoned by G-d, not just at this instant, but day and night, over a period of time, alone and despondent. Feelings of abandonment and despair are based on fear, and it is normal for a human being who is condemned to die to be afraid and feel abandoned instead of facing his execution while declaring his faith in G-d.)

    22:4 “But it is You Who are holy, [it is You] Who inhabits the praises of Israel.”

    (Jesus is declaring that only G-d is the expression of “kedushah”, this experiance that is beyond the grasp of humanity, including himself, and that Israel has always declares it's praises to G-d alone and no other.)

    22:5 “It was with You that our fathers felt secure, [trusting], and you provided for them [delivering them from their distress].”

    (Here Jesus is declaring that just as G-d helped the Patriarchs out of their time of trouble, he too wanted to be saved from this hour of terror. But unlike them, he did not feel very secure, or trusting, for his feelings of abandonment are immense).

    22:6 “It was to You that they cried out, and they escaped danger because of You. They trusted in You and were not dissapointed [in their expectation of deliverance].”

    (Jesus is declaring that only G-d can help him, just as he helped the Patriarchs. Jesus is declaring that not by his righteousness, but the righteousness of the Patriarchs may he be delivered from this terror through the memory of their righteousness.)

    22:7 “But [compared to them] I am a worm, and not [even worthy of being] a man, I am scorned of men and despised by the nation.”

    (Jesus declares that he recognizes that he is not at the level of spirituality as the Patriarchs, asks G-d to deliver him from his terror on their righteousness even though he does not deserve it. And the Jewish people, he says, have declared that he is not worthy, they despise him and want nothing to do with him.)

    22:8 “All those who see me, scorn me. They reject me with a sneer of the lip and their shaking head.”

    (Jesus is acknowledging that everyone, without exception, reject him. Mocking him, belittling him, or shaking the head, wondering how someone could fall so far. He is friendless and alone, with only G-d to talk to, who has ignored him.)

    22:9 [“They are saying:] 'Let us toss it to HaShem! He will deliver it, He will save it', [and they mockingly say] 'He takes pleasure in him'.”

    (Jesus is saying that his enemies are planning to rip him off of the cross, [since he already said the “My G-d, my G-d, while he was on the cross, and this comes next]. And they now want to do something really nasty, just to prove that G-d has no real interest in this man, treating him as though he is not a man, but a thing.)

    As a side note, the Hebrew word “gohl” [cast/wrest] implies difficulty in holding onto something before casting a struggling object, pulling it away before tossing it aside)

    22:10 “For it was You Who thrust me from the womb, [it was You Who] gave me hope [while I was nursing] upon my mother's breast.”

    (Jesus is declaring that while he may not have wanted to be born, and maybe his birth was not an easy one, still, as far as he could remember, he always trusted in the One G-d, that G-d would always be there to help when he needed it. And he really needs help now. He is begging to be set free.)

    22:11 “It was upon You that I was sent from the the uterus, from the womb of my mother. You are my G-d.”

    (Oh, this is a tough one. Jesus is declaring that he has always been drawn to G-d, even before he was born, that he had an innate knowing and devout experience of G-d, even while in the womb, declaring that the One and only G-d who created him is his G-d too!)

    22:12 “Be not far from me, for misfortune is imminent, since there is no help.”

    (This repeats the theme of verse 2-3, where Jesus feels that he has been abandoned, and declares that there is no human help that can get him out of this mess, and that if G-d doesn't come through, the G-d he has always believed in, then he will soon die.)

    22:13 “Many bulls have come around me, the brave ones of Bashan have encircled me!”

    (Jesus is noting that the powerful ones of the Gentile nations are all around him, for Bulls are typically representative of powerful nations, just as 70 bulls were sacrificed for the 70 powerful nations in the Temple. Bashan was, at the time of this Psalm, one of those nations. Jesus was telling G-d that the place where he was being crucified were full of gentiles of various kinds who wanted him dead. Blast those Romans! Damn those Greeks!)

    22:14 “They open up their mouth against me, they are a lion, ravening, roaring.”

    (Here, Jesus is saying how all of the enemies of the Jews who are also his enemies and have put him in this predicament, are “roaring”, attacking him in unison, seeking his destruction as the non-Jewish enemies have plotted for his death. The metaphor of a beast, a lion is more powerful than a bull, and it is the first of the times it is used in thie Psalm).

    22:15 “I am spilling out, like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has become like wax that is melting within my deepest parts.”

    (Jesus is saying that he is like water, which has no form of it's own, for he feels like he has no support from man or G-d. Even his limbs no longer are of any use, f
    or he is feels crippled, weak, and despairs, his heart poured out to the One G-d).

    22:16 “My strength is dried up like a clay shard, and my tongue feels glued to my palate. And You have sent me to be covered with the dust of death.”

    (Jesus feels that his limited strength is failing, he is thirsty and requires water to survive, he knows that without G-d saving him, that he will soon die. And if so, then so be it.)

    (Ok, I will let the next verse read “pierce” just for the fun of it instead of the previously used “lion”!)

    22:17 “For dogs have already surrounded me. A company of evil doers who are piercing my hands and feet”

    (Jesus is saying that while he is on the cross, non Jews, or “dogs” (See “Matthew” where Jesus refers to non-Jews in this manner) are sorrounding him and piercing his hands and feet.)

    22:18 “I recall to myself all of my “bones” They (the evil doers) behold this and look at me.”

    (Jesus is recalling the past of those who came before who are long dead (as he did in verse 5), and the evil gentiles who did this to him, they see this, and they stare in bewilderment that he is not crying for them to let him go, but is instead recounting the deads of the righteous Jews who are the foundation of Israel [something that the “gospels” must have left out).

    22:19 “They divide my garments among themselves, casting lots for my clothing.”

    (Here Jesus is declaring that the non-Jews, the enemies of the Jewish people, are taking his property [which was slashed into shreds during his lashing], and they are even gambling to see who can get the best of these stringy garments.)

    22:20 “But You HaShem, do not be far off. You are my strength. Hasten to help me!”

    (Jesus is saying that he is but mortal, weak, and dying, and that only the One G-d who created him can help, for only Hashem is the true source of all strength.)

    22:21 “Deliver my soul from the sword, and my one and only from the power of the dog”

    (Here, Jesus is praying that he not die by the sword, and that the Jewish people with whom he was “yechid” [united with ] should not be overpowered by their enemies as he has been.)

    22:22 Save me from the lions mouth, for you have already heard me from the horns of the Re'emin”)

    (Oops. There is that pesky “lion” metaphor again! Here we have Jesus saying that the evil doers (See verse 14) who seek his death and the death of the Jewish people are upon him. Jesus doesn't want to die and cries out for deliverance, just as he has recounted again and again asking to be saved, but it will be a cry unanswered.)

    22:23 “I will declare Your Name to my bretheren, I will praise You in the midst of the congregations with songs proclaiming Your mighty acts.”

    (Here, Jesus is saying that if he survives this, he will speak of HaShem to the Jewish people, praising HaShem to all of the congregations of Jews everywhere, and speaking not of himself, but only of the greatness of HaShem. Hmmm, that is problematic for one who is supposed to be G-d!)

    22:24 “You [Jewish people] who are in awe of HaShem, praise Him with songs proclaiming His mighty acts. All of you children of Jacob, glorify Him (G-d) and stand in awe of Him (G-d), all of you people of Israel!”

    (Another deity problem arises. Here, Jesus turns his atttention away from himself and cries out to the Jewish people to do what he has promised to do, to praise HaShem only, and serve Him in all of His ways. In fact, it seems as though he has cut himself away from any intermediary form and is telling people to pray directly to Hashem.)

    22:25 “For He (G-d) has neither despised the nor abhored the lowliness of the poor, nor has He hid His presence from him, and when he cried to Him, He heard!

    (Now Jesus is declaring that blessed are the poor (ahni) for they will know G-d and he will respond. In this way, he is recalling his sermon on the mount and declaring himself as an “ahni”, a poor man who has nothing of his own)

    22:26 “From You comes my praise, in the great congregation I will pay my vows, in the presence of those who are in awe of him”

    (Jesus is declaring that any praises that he recieves is by way of HaShem, and not of anything that he has done. He is also saying that one day, he will come before the great Sanhedrin, consisting of Jews who are in awe of HaShem, and will pay his “neder” (a vow). A Jew who makes a vow is required to bring an atonement for having done so. It's a sin with a method of correction. And Jesus is admitting that he will atone if he will but be set free.)

    22:27 “Let the meek eat and be satisfied. Let them praise ]HaShem, those who seek Him, may your hearts be alive forever”

    (Here we have Jesus speaking of the humble Jews, that they should come together, celebrate, and bentch together. He speaks of those who seek to serve HaShem and no other G-d. And declares that their passion should be the type of passion that should live forever, to serve the One G-d. Do we see a pattern here of whom Jesus is telling the people to have a relationship with and Who alone to pray to? Do we see that the speaker does not say me but Him? Do we see that the speaker not only doesn't declare his own worthiness to be served but directs people to serve HaShem alone?)

    ——————————————————————————–

    Do you know something Bill? If you are willing to accept that this entire Psalm speaks of the central figure not being G-d, of telling others to pray alone to HaShem and no other, and that he is not only unworthy, but is simply a man, I am more than willing to switch the word “lion” for “pierce”!

    http://www.kosherjudaism.com/tehillim22humor.html


    Cubes

    As long as you try to see Jesus as either Man or God, the scriptures will never harmonize.

    Jesus Is the Monogenes “Unique” Son of God.

    There is only one exactly like him and there will always be only one exactly like him.

    For he is the Mediator between God and man.

    That is because he is God and man.

    He is the Word/God that came in the flesh.

    Scriptures are clear about this. If he is a mere man, then there was no need for the Incarnation.

    I would encourage you to look at scriptures from the OT that speak of YHWH, and you will see that YHWH is Yeshua.

    Zech 12 and 14 is a good start.

    :)

    May 10, 2007 at 12:55 pm#51847
    Cult Buster
    Participant

    Quote
    t8

    Quote (t8 @ May 07 2007,18:47)

    Quote (t8 @ April 23 2007,16:20)

    Quote (Cult Buster @ April 17 2007,19:20)
    Hi t8. We could argue over Bible translations or play word games, but the scripture tells us that only God was involved in creation.


    Hi CultB.

    So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?


    Hi CultB.

    So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?


    Hi CultB.

    So like I said, you do not believe that God made all things THROUGH Christ. Is that correct?

    A simple yes and no, so I know where you stand.

    Thanks.

    Hi t8. I answered this question for you on the other thread, but that's ok. We could argue or play word games, but I will allow scripture to provide the response to  your question.The Bible tells us clearly that only God was involved in creation.

    Gen 1:1  In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    The Bible makes it clear that all three Persons of the Godhead were involved in creation. This includes Christ (Jehovah) and Jehovah the Holy Spirit.

    Job 33:4  The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
    Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Joh 1:10  He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    For by him (Jesus) were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
    And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
    (Col 1:16-17)

    Christ was the principal Person within the Godhead responsible for creation.

    “All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.”
    (John 1:3)

    “You, Lord, have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands.”
    (Heb 1:10)

    – – “By the Word of God were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of His mouth.”
    (Psa 33:6)

    Who was this Word of God, the Creator?

    Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    Joh 1:14  And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,  

    The Word of God is Jesus. Jesus is Jehovah God!

    – – “A Prayer of Moses, the man of God. Lord, You have been our dwelling-place in all generations. Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever You had formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting You are God. Psalm 90:2”

    Jehovah alone created the universe.
    See the following.

    Isa 44:24  Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;  

    Yes, Jehovah created everything by Himself. God did not use angels or other instrumentalities outside of the Godhead. It's very clear.

    (God)
    Job 9:8  Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea.

    Heb 3:4  For every house is builded by some man; but he that built all things is God.

    The above verses qualify that only God by Himself created the universe.   Jesus is the Creator God Jehovah.

    The fact is that only Jehovah God was involved in creation. Christ was the Creator so therefore He is Jehovah God. This is consistent with a multitude of scripture that establishes the deity of Christ.

    There you are t8. Your questions are now answered.

    The universe was made for and by Jesus our Jehovah God, and through His creative power.

    Joh 1:5  And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.    :O

    May 10, 2007 at 8:44 pm#51862
    NickHassan
    Participant

    Hi CNB,
    Is Jesus our God”.
    Funny that Jesus said in Jn 8
    ” 54Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:”

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